Post/Author/DateTime	Post
roll8dn 12-28-05, 01:06 PM	I have always loved the Dungeons and Dragons game. However, I find myself somewhat disappointed in the manner that the core races are presented, game rules-wise. I grew up with Tolkien, and I find it difficult to think of dwarves and elves as anything but the "elder" races. Thus, I always thought that they should glean certain bonuses from long development times (after all, a dwarf isn't considered an adult until in their fifth decade, and an elf twice that) versus their slower birth rates. What I was considering was making both of those races (and, perhaps, gnomes as well; although I am still up in the air over that) LA +1 for an upcoming game. In order to do this, I would shuffle certain bonuses and eliminate certain penalties. Here is what I was imagining for the two races: Elves: Elves have the following game statistics: +2 Dexterity; elves are very graceful and are taught the arts of archery and swordplay from an early age. Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Elf base land speed is 30 feet. Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +4 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. Low-Light Vision: An elf can see three times as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. +4 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan. Generalist Wizardry: Elves have an innate connection to magic itself. They can feel its ebbs and flows, and learn its mysteries faster than any other race. At her first Wizard level, an elf gains one extra 1st-level spell. At each following level, the elf gains one extra spell of any level that she can cast (in addition to the normal two spells learned at each level). The elf cannot use this ability in conjunction with wizard specialization; she must choose which ability she gains. Spell Like Abilities: Elves are actually a part of magic itself, and therefore have certain special abilities. At 1st level, an elf chooses a number of 0th-level spells equal to her Intelligence bonus (minimum one) to be usable as a spell-like ability once per day (caster level equal to hit die). Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass elf’s Wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. Dwarves: Dwarves have the following game statistics: +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma; dwarves are more hardy than most races and have an instinctive realationship with the earth and stone in which they live; however, they are very reserved and clannish in nature. Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations). Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 90 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all. Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +4 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 20 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth as well as true north, sensing his approximate depth underground and direction as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground). +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids. +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too. +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items. +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal. Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon. Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing So, what do you folks think? As far as the Gnomes go, I was considering giving them a closer link to nature than to stone and illusion. Perhaps the forest gnome subtype would be a good idea, hmmm...
Phoenix Knight 12-28-05, 01:38 PM	At a glance, I'd say you might need just slighty more power to make it worth giving up a level for. Look at the aasimar for a basis. +2 to two ability scores, darkvision, +2 Spot/Listen, spell-like ability, resistance to 3 energy types... Although your free cantrips for elves is a nice touch. Arguably, Tolkien's elves are way more powerful, but that's a debate I'd rather not start. Another option would be to adjust the racial paragon classes to be what you want. You could possibly even incorporate level adjustments into those classes, as with savage species race-classes.
RaspK FOG 12-28-05, 01:48 PM	For starters, look over at the Sidhelien and Karamhul of Birthright (birthright.net is down at this moment, but it will pick itself up soon ;)), which are, like Tolkien's elves and dwarves, respectively, modeled after the elves of myth and legend; add to them a lack of frailties (e.g. few if any penalties on ability scores), some more benefits, and you have it! Check this out: http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2317
Robo_Mafia_Latte 12-28-05, 02:23 PM	dwarves would not be considered wise as they are very quick to be angered and to act. Elves on the other hand being immortal are VERY wise and they should have the wisdom bonus
Phoenix Knight 12-28-05, 04:16 PM	dwarves would not be considered wise as they are very quick to be angered and to act. Elves on the other hand being immortal are VERY wise and they should have the wisdom bonus Agreed. I don't remember if the line is used in the books, but in the movies, elves are called "wisest and fairest of all the races." Sounds like a bonus to Wis and Cha to me.
Tenzhi 12-29-05, 03:02 AM	Agreed. If based on Tolkien's works, Dwarves shouldn't really get a Wisdom bonus. I can see giving them an Intelligence bonus, a Strength bonus, or increasing their Constitution bonus, however.
RaspK FOG 12-29-05, 04:27 AM	If you want to be true to Middle Earth, the Khuzdul (isn't that what Tolkien called his dwarves?) should get a +2 or +4 bonus on their Constitution, the Endurance feat for free or its benefits with the ability to take Endurance as well, treat most axes as simple weapons and the heavier variations as martial, be able to wear heavy armour and carry heavy burden with little hindrance to their mobility, get even better stats... As for the elves, there are so many of them... Based on the literary facts, they would not even fall in a trance (they simply need to rest, not sleep) and maybe for as little as 2 hours, get a better bonus on Spot checks, treat some weapons as simple (being proficient in the sword and bow automatically is a little off), choose either the fighter or the ranger as their favoured class (though the ranger was originally based on Aragorn himself), a +2 bonus on their Charisma... Maybe you should check out the paragon classes? EDIT: A friend of mine just told me that there is a d20 Middle Earth sourcebook.
rat_bastard 01-02-06, 05:33 PM	gee, make the elves and the dwarves more powerful? Why? how about the real red-headed stepchildren of wotc, the half elf and the half orc? for half orc, add +2 con and a free fighter feat. for half elf, +4 skill points at first and +1 per level afterword.
Nyaricus 01-02-06, 07:31 PM	My campaign is based off of Tolkien's works, as well as real life myth, legends, and folklore. My dwarves, elves, hobbits (yes, i use hobbits rather than halfings), orcs and goblins, etc are all based off of MIddle Earths races. Here are my races, along with some explainations. Dwarf +2 Str, +2 Con. Tolkien's dwarves were strong and tough. -2 on all Cha-based skill checks except for intimidate. Dwarves would rather stay at their forges then interact with the world or even get married and settle down; thus charisma-based skill checks are penalized. However, when brought to anger, they are intimidating foes. Things like rebuking undead, etc should not be penalized by a lowered Charisma, which is why i penalized skill checks. Medium Size Darkvision 90 ft Base Land Speed of 20 feet. This cannot be reduced by Armour of carrying heavy loads. +2 racial bonus on all Appraise, Craft and Knowledge checks involving Gems, Metal and Stone +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. +1 on damage vs Orcs (this race includes Orcs and "Goblinoids" IMC) and one of the following - Dragons, Trolls or Giants [see Bonus Weapon Groups for further informationj on how these Enemies afect a dwarves weapon choice] Bonus Weapon Group: Axes, Hammers, Picks or Spears [if you chose dragons]. Dwares would use groups of spearmen against dragons to pierce their underbellies, and they would oftentimes fight caves trolls while digging in the earth with their picks, thus those two Weapon Groups must be chosen in correlation with their "chosen enemy". Axes and Hammers are always an option and are not affected by chosen enemy. LA +1 ------ For elves it must be noted that there were quite a few subraces in Middle Earth. Since most are familiar with either Silvan (ie Legolas) or High elves (ie Elrond - well, he was a high-elven half-elf, but that is splitting hairs. You get the point) I will present those two races here. High Elf +2 Wis, +2 Cha. High elves are some of the fairest and wisest of all races. Medium Size Base Land Speed 35 feet. High elves are quicker than humans or other races. Low light vision Keen Vision. High elves can see 3 times as far as a human in good light. +2 to balance and move silently checks. High elves are quick and light on their feet whilst moving around. +2 to listen and search and +4 to spot checks. High elves are incrediably perceptive - especially at long distances. Bonus Proficiency: Bow Weapon Group. All High Elves train with bows and thus get this weapon group for free. +1 to damage versus Orcs (this racial group includes Orcs and "goblinoids") Favoured Class: Druid (i have a homebrew magic class for elves in the making (it's a 20 level base class that is availiable to elves and half-elves only), but for the OP's purpuses, use the Druid as a base class. It meshes well enough with the whole nature thing the elves go going, and with +Wis (for spellcasting) and +Cha (for the meatshields--err, i mean [I]animal companions) this race/class combo really works well. LA +1 Silvan Elves: they are the same as High Elves, except as follows: +2 Dex, +2 Cha Favoured Class: Ranger -------- Another word of wisdom here (well, i hope it's wise) :tongue: is to makes Orcs and Goblinoids be one race (as they were in Middle Earth) what do you guys think?
Nyaricus 01-02-06, 07:50 PM	The reason why i dropped so much of the PHB stuff for these races (like stonecutting and poison resistance, etc) was that my dwarves and elves were built from the ground up. Thus, some things seemed inappropriate for Tolkien-esque Dwarves and Elves. Other things were brought in. IN the end, i think i did a pretty good job in balancing these guys overall, and they definitively have their own flavour and fluffi-ness all their own :D Thus, roll8dn, that is why i guess i think that you should drop some of the PHB abilities. They are inappropriate for Middle Earth races - and as a Tolkien enthusiast like myself, i hope you understadn why i dropped them. If you still really think that one of those abiites should stay, post up why and i (and others) can help for balance. PS - i LOVE your moose warrior! I saw it a few months ago, adn fell in love with it. Gonna use it as a PrC for sure :D
Koga:The ninja trick 01-02-06, 08:36 PM	The Koga likes it, though if you're going to buff the dwarf/elf you'll need to seriously make sure all the other races are just as buffed. As for the guy who asked about half-elf, in Tolkien's world there are no half-elves as D&D presents them, they're either born human or elf..
Nyaricus 01-02-06, 09:00 PM	The Koga likes it, though if you're going to buff the dwarf/elf you'll need to seriously make sure all the other races are just as buffed. They whoel point to giving they an LA is that they are older races. They are more powerful too. The other races are younger and thus don't get an LA. As for the guy who asked about half-elf, in Tolkien's world there are no half-elves as D&D presents them, they're either born human or elf.. Actually, they are made, not born. IIRC, a half-elf can chose to be either "elven" (great age; though NOT immortality as it is commonly thought) or "human" (mortality). By default, they are "elven", but Arowen (Sp?) chose to be with Aragorn and turned her back on the light. Personally, i think that half-elven should be statted out as their own race; the only problem is that they are so few of them in Middle Earth it is hard to get a "standard" idea of what sort of racial, inborn abilities that they get. Definitly Half-elves are LA+0 though.
Jerks 01-02-06, 11:52 PM	You know, that -2 Cha for dwarves has been bothering me for a while. Dwarves may be gruff, rude and quick to take offense (either that or all the younger races are quick to offer insult), but I've never seen them as weak-willed. A penalty to Charisma-based skills is a good way to do it; although, I'm not sure I want my dwarves to have a +1 LA. Do you guys think a -4 to Charisma based skills is enough if I drop the -2 Charisma?
Nyaricus 01-03-06, 04:20 AM	Do you guys think a -4 to Charisma based skills is enough if I drop the -2 Charisma? -2 to Cha based skills is like having a charisma score 4 points lower; -4 to Cha-based skill checks is like having a Cha score 8 points lower. That hurts a little too much. If you want to make my dwarves +0 LA, heres what i'd do. +2 Con. Tolkien's dwarves were strong and tough. -2 on all Cha-based skill checks except for intimidate. Dwarves would rather stay at their forges then interact with the world or even get married and settle down; thus charisma-based skill checks are penalized. However, when brought to anger, they are intimidating foes. Things like rebuking undead, etc should not be penalized by a lowered Charisma, which is why i penalized skill checks. Medium Size Darkvision 60 ft Base Land Speed of 20 feet. This cannot be reduced by Armour of carrying heavy loads. +2 racial bonus on all Appraise, Craft and Knowledge checks involving Gems, Metal and Stone +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. +1 on damage vs Orcs Bonus Weapon Group: Axes, Hammers or Picks (spears was dropped as it wasn't themed as well as these Weapon Groups).
Nyaricus 01-03-06, 04:25 AM	personally, I think that PHB dwarves are about LA of +0.5; most of the other races are either +0 or even a bit lower (half-orc, anyone?). That is why my dwarf seems a bit stripped down in comparision. I could see adding back in Stability to up the power a bit, maybe the + to poison checks (although when you think about it considering A. martial classes with good Fort progs are favoured by dwarves and that B. the +2 con gives +1 to those checks vs poison anyways the + vs poison is a bit [read: very] redundant) as well, but other than that i think that this race is pretty good for a LA +0 as-is. Just my :twocents: