Possible fix for Generic Class problems [Archive] - Wizards Community

Possible fix for Generic Class problems [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Crusher Nate
03-12-04, 12:52 PM I have an idea for a fix to some of the problems people have found with the generic classes option. Namely, the relative lack of variety, the difficulty of incorporating class features, and the loss of favored classes...

Give every character one free "upgrade" for the class he chooses at level one. This upgrade can be used for one of the following:

:b: Hit Die: Increase by one class (d4 to d6, d6 to d8, etc.)
:b: BAB: Increase BAB advancement by one class (1/2 to 3/4, etc.)
:b: Saves: Gain one additional "good" saving throw type.
:b: Skills: Gain 2 more skill points per level, and choose 4 additional class skills.
:b: Bonus Feats: Increase the rate at which bonus feats are gained by one step (every 5 levels becomes every 4 levels, every 4 becomes every 3, and every 3 levels becomes every other level).

The maximum value for each of these upgrades is equal to the best core class value for that aspect. Hit Die increases should be limited to a d12, same as Barbarian, for example. Additional upgrades can be purchased by taking downgrades elsewhere. I haven't yet determined whether the ratio should be 2 downgrades for one upgrade or one for one; this is still a rough idea.

Once you hit the limit, spending further upgrades on that aspect could instead get you a core class feature that normally goes with that maximum value. Raising your Hit Die beyond a d12 could instead get you Barbarian Rage, for example.

I'm still working out how to use this in conjunction with what would normally be favored classes. A couple of ideas:
:b: Give humans and half-elves (and perhaps half-orcs) an additional free upgrade since they kinda get shafted with the loss of favored classes.
:b: Or... Instead, you could predetermine where the free upgrade has to go depending on your race's favored class. Dwarves could be required to spend it on bonus feats or BAB, since their favored class is Fighter. Humans and half-elves could just do whatever they want with it.
:b: Or... If I go with the 2 downgrades for 1 upgrade cost ratio, maybe humans and half-elves could use a 1:1 ratio instead.

Just a rough idea; I'm putting more thought into it. Any suggestions?
Belegbeth
03-13-04, 04:52 PM An interesting strategy, but one that looks a bit too complicated. One of the advantages of the generic classes (in theory, at least) is that it should be relatively easy to construct the kind of character you want (whether PC or NPC).

And I am not sure if it is balanced -- the "upgrade" to increase the rate at which you receive feats looks especially problematic. If the Warrior took that upgrade, she would get a feat every level! That seems too much. And the spellcaster is already quite powerful with the ability to cast any spell, and without an armour penalty.

In my view, the main two problems with the generic class system are: the relative weakness of the Expert, and its current inability to incorporate many class features. The lack of a favored class is not an issue, as far as I am concerned (humans still have plenty of advantages, and half-elves have always been too weak -- I would just give them the humans' bonus skill points).

I may post my suggestions for Generic Classes later today :D
Crusher Nate
03-15-04, 02:17 PM Actually, I was planning on a bonus feat every other level as the limit for bonus feats. I hadn't decided what to give instead for upgrading that feature, but I certainly wouldn't allow a bonus feat every level. That would indeed be too much.

As for humans being fine even without favored classes, I'm not so sure. If I do run a campaign using my vision of the generic classes, I think it'd work best as a point-buy game. The lack of an ability score penalty seems like less of a bonus in a point-buy game, since an elf or a halfling with 16 Dex effectively has 4 more points to spend on other abilities than a human with 16 Dex. This can make the difference between your lowest ability score being an 8 or a 12. So I feel that in that environment "favored class: any" becomes more of an asset that I'd rather not take away from humans and half-elves.

Thanks for your comments, Belegbeth; I'm looking forward to seeing your own take on a fix. My concept does seem pretty complicated right now, and I'm hoping to simplify it.
Belegbeth
03-16-04, 02:58 AM I posted these suggestions in a separate thread. But here they areagain, for your edification!

With these changes, I think that you can build characters that reflect most of the basic "adventuring types" in fantasy games (holy warriors, rangers, bards, etc.), but with much more flexibility than is provided in the standard DnD classes.

CLASS CHANGES

The Expert would get d8 HD, 8 skill points per level, and proficiency with 3 martial weapons (otherwise unchanged).
The Spellcaster would get d6 HD (otherwise unchanged).
The Warrior would get 4 skill points per level (otherwise unchanged).

GENERAL FEAT LIST (add these class abilities to the feats available to all classes)

Fast Movement, Favoured Enemy, Favoured Terrain, Woodland Stride.

Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Divine Grace (PC must be level 2), Lay on Hands.

Rage. [Taking rage (1/day) costs two feats, and should be taken at first level. This reflects the idea that this ability is derived from a certain cultural background. Thus an "expert" from a Viking-like culture might have learned to rage, as might a "priest" from that same culture. The frequency of rage improves with a character's BAB: Rage 2/day at BAB of +4; Rage 3/day at BAB of +8; Rage 4/day at BAB of +12; Rage 5/day at BAB of +16; Rage 6/day at BAB of +20. Greater rage is a separate feat and requires Rage and BAB +11. Tireless rage is a separate feat and requires Greater Rage and BAB +17. Mighty Rage is a separate feat that requires Tireless Rage, and BAB +20.]

EXPERT FEAT LIST (these class abilities are available only to the Expert)

Evasion, Improved Evasion, Sneak Attack, Improved Sneak Attack, Greater Sneak Attack, Trap Senses, Skill Mastery, Uncanny Dodge. (See UA, p. 76, for the prerequisites for these feats.)

Wild Empathy, Camouflage (PC must be level 13), Hide in Plain Sight (PC must be level 17), Venom Immunity (PC must be level 9).

Bardic Knowledge, Basic Bardic Song (countersong, fascinate, inspire courage), Inspire Competence (requires 6 ranks of performance and Basic Bardic Song), Suggestion (requires 6 ranks of performance and Inspire Competence), Inspire Greatness (requires 12 ranks of performance and Suggestion), Song of Freedom (requires 15 ranks of performance and Inspire Greatness), Inspire Heroics (requires 18 ranks in performance and Song of Freedom), Mass Suggestion (requires 21 ranks of performance and Inspire Heroics).

SPELLCASTER FEAT LIST

Bardic Knowledge, Familiar, Turn Undead, Animal Companion.

Wild shape (small and medium creatures): 2/day. Requirements: ability to cast 3rd level spells (at least one spell known must be from the "animal" domain). Wild shape (small and medium creatures): 4/day. Requirements: Wild shape 2/day and ability to cast 5th level spells. Wild shape (small and medium creatures): 6/day. Requirements: Wild shape 4/day and ability to cast 9th level spells. Wild shape (large creatures). Requirements: Wild shape (small and medium creatures) and ability to cast 4th level spells. Wild shape (tiny creatures). Requirements: Wild shape (small and medium creatures) and ability to cast 6th level spells. Wild shape (plants). Requirements: Wild shape (small and medium creatures) and ability to cast 6th level spells. Wild shape (huge creatures). Requirements: Wild shape (large creatures) and ability to cast 8th level spells. Wild shape (elementals) 1/day. Requirements:Wild shape (huge creatures) and ability to cast 8th level spells. Can be taken multiple times (each time increases the number of times a PC can wild shape to elemental by 1/day). [Feats that increase the number of times/day that a character can wild shape apply to all creatures into which she can wild shape (e.g. large, huge, and plant) by means of other feats -- except for elementals.]

GENERAL COMMENTS

With this system I think you can recreate a number of standard "adventuring types," while retaining the flexibility inherent in the Generic Class system. I have tried to group similar class abilities together in different "streams" that players might use to build particular kinds of characters.

For example, if you are primarily a warrior, you could construct an "outdoor warrior" by drawing on the feats in the first stream of the General feat list (fast movement, etc.). Add rage to be a "barbarian" warrior. Add a few levels of Expert (with feats drawn from the second stream, including wild empathy, etc.) to be a "ranger." Alternatively, you could choose detect evil, etc. in order to be a "holy warrior." Add a few levels of spellcaster (with the turn undead feat) to create a "paladin." And so forth.

The advantage of this system is that you can always throw in a different class ability if you want it. For example, if you are building a "rogue" (using mainly the first stream from the Expert feats), you could add Bardic Knowledge to reflect your character's information-gathering abilities. Or if you are building a "bard" (using the third stream of Expert feats, and a few levels of Spellcaster) you could always add Wild Empathy, Fast Movement, and Woodland Stride to reflect his "outdoor interests" (bards travel a lot). And so forth!
LittleDevil
03-16-04, 10:05 AM In my campaign, which I'm currently designing, I'm going to use generic classes, though they're a bit different.

The Warrior and Expert gain both bonus feats and special abilities. So, the Warrior gets something like 8 feats and 5 special abilities, which may be Rage, Smite, Poison Use... You get the idea.
The special abilities have pre-reqs, like feats, which limit them to characters of a certain level.

The Expert's the reversed, getting more specials and fewer feats, as well as bonuses to skills.

The Mage I'm leaving as it is, though I force them to have a familliar and a focus, usually a staff (more things a spellcaster can lose that they need to cast their spells is a good thing, I'd say).

Spells are more flexible, with Spellpoints and variable effects based on the amount of SpP you use (if anyone's seen the previews for the XPsiHB, it's kinda like the augmentations), but spellcasters only get some of them (If I don't change anything, the max is 20(1/level) + 5 (5 Extra Spell-feats) and +5 (for each level of a PrC).
The PrC will probably have something like a 3 feat pre-req, so that's why the example doesn't have 8 Extra Spell-feats.

...Okay, I just realized this post wasn't so constructive, but I'm posting it anyway, just because. :)
TinManFan
03-16-04, 07:27 PM Way make those changes? The only thing they should do is add the rogue special ablities (with pre-reqs) and Lore. That's it. If you want soething else, the regular classes aren't burned from the memory of mankind, play them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crusher Nate 03-12-04, 12:52 PM	I have an idea for a fix to some of the problems people have found with the generic classes option. Namely, the relative lack of variety, the difficulty of incorporating class features, and the loss of favored classes... Give every character one free "upgrade" for the class he chooses at level one. This upgrade can be used for one of the following: :b: Hit Die: Increase by one class (d4 to d6, d6 to d8, etc.) :b: BAB: Increase BAB advancement by one class (1/2 to 3/4, etc.) :b: Saves: Gain one additional "good" saving throw type. :b: Skills: Gain 2 more skill points per level, and choose 4 additional class skills. :b: Bonus Feats: Increase the rate at which bonus feats are gained by one step (every 5 levels becomes every 4 levels, every 4 becomes every 3, and every 3 levels becomes every other level). The maximum value for each of these upgrades is equal to the best core class value for that aspect. Hit Die increases should be limited to a d12, same as Barbarian, for example. Additional upgrades can be purchased by taking downgrades elsewhere. I haven't yet determined whether the ratio should be 2 downgrades for one upgrade or one for one; this is still a rough idea. Once you hit the limit, spending further upgrades on that aspect could instead get you a core class feature that normally goes with that maximum value. Raising your Hit Die beyond a d12 could instead get you Barbarian Rage, for example. I'm still working out how to use this in conjunction with what would normally be favored classes. A couple of ideas: :b: Give humans and half-elves (and perhaps half-orcs) an additional free upgrade since they kinda get shafted with the loss of favored classes. :b: Or... Instead, you could predetermine where the free upgrade has to go depending on your race's favored class. Dwarves could be required to spend it on bonus feats or BAB, since their favored class is Fighter. Humans and half-elves could just do whatever they want with it. :b: Or... If I go with the 2 downgrades for 1 upgrade cost ratio, maybe humans and half-elves could use a 1:1 ratio instead. Just a rough idea; I'm putting more thought into it. Any suggestions?
Belegbeth 03-13-04, 04:52 PM	An interesting strategy, but one that looks a bit too complicated. One of the advantages of the generic classes (in theory, at least) is that it should be relatively easy to construct the kind of character you want (whether PC or NPC). And I am not sure if it is balanced -- the "upgrade" to increase the rate at which you receive feats looks especially problematic. If the Warrior took that upgrade, she would get a feat every level! That seems too much. And the spellcaster is already quite powerful with the ability to cast any spell, and without an armour penalty. In my view, the main two problems with the generic class system are: the relative weakness of the Expert, and its current inability to incorporate many class features. The lack of a favored class is not an issue, as far as I am concerned (humans still have plenty of advantages, and half-elves have always been too weak -- I would just give them the humans' bonus skill points). I may post my suggestions for Generic Classes later today :D
Crusher Nate 03-15-04, 02:17 PM	Actually, I was planning on a bonus feat every other level as the limit for bonus feats. I hadn't decided what to give instead for upgrading that feature, but I certainly wouldn't allow a bonus feat every level. That would indeed be too much. As for humans being fine even without favored classes, I'm not so sure. If I do run a campaign using my vision of the generic classes, I think it'd work best as a point-buy game. The lack of an ability score penalty seems like less of a bonus in a point-buy game, since an elf or a halfling with 16 Dex effectively has 4 more points to spend on other abilities than a human with 16 Dex. This can make the difference between your lowest ability score being an 8 or a 12. So I feel that in that environment "favored class: any" becomes more of an asset that I'd rather not take away from humans and half-elves. Thanks for your comments, Belegbeth; I'm looking forward to seeing your own take on a fix. My concept does seem pretty complicated right now, and I'm hoping to simplify it.
Belegbeth 03-16-04, 02:58 AM	I posted these suggestions in a separate thread. But here they areagain, for your edification! With these changes, I think that you can build characters that reflect most of the basic "adventuring types" in fantasy games (holy warriors, rangers, bards, etc.), but with much more flexibility than is provided in the standard DnD classes. CLASS CHANGES The Expert would get d8 HD, 8 skill points per level, and proficiency with 3 martial weapons (otherwise unchanged). The Spellcaster would get d6 HD (otherwise unchanged). The Warrior would get 4 skill points per level (otherwise unchanged). GENERAL FEAT LIST (add these class abilities to the feats available to all classes) Fast Movement, Favoured Enemy, Favoured Terrain, Woodland Stride. Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Divine Grace (PC must be level 2), Lay on Hands. Rage. [Taking rage (1/day) costs two feats, and should be taken at first level. This reflects the idea that this ability is derived from a certain cultural background. Thus an "expert" from a Viking-like culture might have learned to rage, as might a "priest" from that same culture. The frequency of rage improves with a character's BAB: Rage 2/day at BAB of +4; Rage 3/day at BAB of +8; Rage 4/day at BAB of +12; Rage 5/day at BAB of +16; Rage 6/day at BAB of +20. Greater rage is a separate feat and requires Rage and BAB +11. Tireless rage is a separate feat and requires Greater Rage and BAB +17. Mighty Rage is a separate feat that requires Tireless Rage, and BAB +20.] EXPERT FEAT LIST (these class abilities are available only to the Expert) Evasion, Improved Evasion, Sneak Attack, Improved Sneak Attack, Greater Sneak Attack, Trap Senses, Skill Mastery, Uncanny Dodge. (See UA, p. 76, for the prerequisites for these feats.) Wild Empathy, Camouflage (PC must be level 13), Hide in Plain Sight (PC must be level 17), Venom Immunity (PC must be level 9). Bardic Knowledge, Basic Bardic Song (countersong, fascinate, inspire courage), Inspire Competence (requires 6 ranks of performance and Basic Bardic Song), Suggestion (requires 6 ranks of performance and Inspire Competence), Inspire Greatness (requires 12 ranks of performance and Suggestion), Song of Freedom (requires 15 ranks of performance and Inspire Greatness), Inspire Heroics (requires 18 ranks in performance and Song of Freedom), Mass Suggestion (requires 21 ranks of performance and Inspire Heroics). SPELLCASTER FEAT LIST Bardic Knowledge, Familiar, Turn Undead, Animal Companion. Wild shape (small and medium creatures): 2/day. Requirements: ability to cast 3rd level spells (at least one spell known must be from the "animal" domain). Wild shape (small and medium creatures): 4/day. Requirements: Wild shape 2/day and ability to cast 5th level spells. Wild shape (small and medium creatures): 6/day. Requirements: Wild shape 4/day and ability to cast 9th level spells. Wild shape (large creatures). Requirements: Wild shape (small and medium creatures) and ability to cast 4th level spells. Wild shape (tiny creatures). Requirements: Wild shape (small and medium creatures) and ability to cast 6th level spells. Wild shape (plants). Requirements: Wild shape (small and medium creatures) and ability to cast 6th level spells. Wild shape (huge creatures). Requirements: Wild shape (large creatures) and ability to cast 8th level spells. Wild shape (elementals) 1/day. Requirements:Wild shape (huge creatures) and ability to cast 8th level spells. Can be taken multiple times (each time increases the number of times a PC can wild shape to elemental by 1/day). [Feats that increase the number of times/day that a character can wild shape apply to all creatures into which she can wild shape (e.g. large, huge, and plant) by means of other feats -- except for elementals.] GENERAL COMMENTS With this system I think you can recreate a number of standard "adventuring types," while retaining the flexibility inherent in the Generic Class system. I have tried to group similar class abilities together in different "streams" that players might use to build particular kinds of characters. For example, if you are primarily a warrior, you could construct an "outdoor warrior" by drawing on the feats in the first stream of the General feat list (fast movement, etc.). Add rage to be a "barbarian" warrior. Add a few levels of Expert (with feats drawn from the second stream, including wild empathy, etc.) to be a "ranger." Alternatively, you could choose detect evil, etc. in order to be a "holy warrior." Add a few levels of spellcaster (with the turn undead feat) to create a "paladin." And so forth. The advantage of this system is that you can always throw in a different class ability if you want it. For example, if you are building a "rogue" (using mainly the first stream from the Expert feats), you could add Bardic Knowledge to reflect your character's information-gathering abilities. Or if you are building a "bard" (using the third stream of Expert feats, and a few levels of Spellcaster) you could always add Wild Empathy, Fast Movement, and Woodland Stride to reflect his "outdoor interests" (bards travel a lot). And so forth!
LittleDevil 03-16-04, 10:05 AM	In my campaign, which I'm currently designing, I'm going to use generic classes, though they're a bit different. The Warrior and Expert gain both bonus feats and special abilities. So, the Warrior gets something like 8 feats and 5 special abilities, which may be Rage, Smite, Poison Use... You get the idea. The special abilities have pre-reqs, like feats, which limit them to characters of a certain level. The Expert's the reversed, getting more specials and fewer feats, as well as bonuses to skills. The Mage I'm leaving as it is, though I force them to have a familliar and a focus, usually a staff (more things a spellcaster can lose that they need to cast their spells is a good thing, I'd say). Spells are more flexible, with Spellpoints and variable effects based on the amount of SpP you use (if anyone's seen the previews for the XPsiHB, it's kinda like the augmentations), but spellcasters only get some of them (If I don't change anything, the max is 20(1/level) + 5 (5 Extra Spell-feats) and +5 (for each level of a PrC). The PrC will probably have something like a 3 feat pre-req, so that's why the example doesn't have 8 Extra Spell-feats. ...Okay, I just realized this post wasn't so constructive, but I'm posting it anyway, just because. :)
TinManFan 03-16-04, 07:27 PM	Way make those changes? The only thing they should do is add the rogue special ablities (with pre-reqs) and Lore. That's it. If you want soething else, the regular classes aren't burned from the memory of mankind, play them.