Possible Initiative Change [Archive] - Wizards Community

Possible Initiative Change [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Relic
03-14-07, 10:26 AM I have been thinking about turning Initiative into d100 instead of d20. Initiative modifiers would convert as well but I'm thinking of making it a +1 to +2 ratio (maybe a +1 to +3 ratio). Thus, for example, the Improved Initiative feat would give a +8 to initiative under this change.

The idea is to increase the randomness of initiative. The player that had a +10 to Initiative would instead have a +20 to Initiative, increasing the randomness of that player's initiative.

One reason for this change is to make tactics in the game more important. The tactic of "shoot first andy deny them the opportunity to act" becomes less reliable and other tactics would arise and become equally important.

While this does negatively affect some classes whose abilities are partially tied to initiative (i.e. rogue and flat-footed opponents) I think that it is balanced in that it: 1) will, ultimately, affect all PCs, 2) reinforce teamwork, and 3) affects the PC's opponents as well.

What merits (or lack thereof) do you think this idea has?
RobbyPants
03-14-07, 01:26 PM It could work. It looks like you've already recognized some of the major balance issues. Don't expect many people to want to blow a feat on Improved Initiative;)
ZiggZagg
03-14-07, 01:34 PM What is wrong with the way initiative works now?
Relic
03-14-07, 02:13 PM What is wrong with the way initiative works now?

The combination of ever-increasing potency of spells at the higher level and the reliance of focusing on having the fastest initiative possible to use said spells is too much a focus within my group. I want to curb this dependency of "going first" to force more creativity and teamwork within the party. With this change I'm hoping to make initiative less a near-guaranteed tactical option and give players (especially the non-casters) the option of trying out other tactics or ideas.
ZiggZagg
03-14-07, 02:17 PM Have they worked to buff their intiative inorder to go first for that tactical advantage? Is this your fix to them creating a character that likes to strike first as their tactical advantage? Striking first has been an important tactic for a long time, why penalize that?
mike_beavers
03-14-07, 02:35 PM There is still a strong variable the d20 itself for intiative. you could have a +10 and still roll a 1, odds are likely that somebody can beat you.

An optiion is to roll for each round. It creates more chaos if thats what you are looking for.
Relic
03-14-07, 02:37 PM Have they worked to buff their intiative inorder to go first for that tactical advantage? Is this your fix to them creating a character that likes to strike first as their tactical advantage? Striking first has been an important tactic for a long time, why penalize that?

Striking first is an important tactic but when it becomes the sole tactic that each confrontation is built upon then it becomes an issue (as within my group). Encounters should be based on the a number of factors such as number of opponents, their capabilities, the environment, etc. With my group it seldom goes beyond... "we'll go first so the spellcaster(s) can cast maze or anti-magic field."

Granted, I could tailor the encounters to rely upon the PCs going first but you can only do that so many times before it becomes cliche. Additionally, I do not think it is viable (as in honoring the concept of each opponent) to build every opponent toward the goal of first action. Most opponents have different strengths other than "going first."

High Dex, initiative-boosting feats (such as Improved Initiative or Blooded), and class abilities/spells/psionics/etc are very common within my group.

I do not think it is such a huge change that it changes the concept of such builds. Such builds will still be fast and will likely have a higher initiative than their non-initiative bonus counterparts. However, the likelihood of that always being the case is reduced.

As mentioned, this change is deigned to introduce the players to different methodology and creativity. I think it accomplishes that will not making their character concepts obsolete.
Relic
03-14-07, 02:39 PM There is still a strong variable the d20 itself for intiative. you could have a +10 and still roll a 1, odds are likely that somebody can beat you.

An optiion is to roll for each round. It creates more chaos if thats what you are looking for.

That also adds an additional die roll for combat and increases the amount of work that I, as the DM, have to keep track off. I'd rather deal with Initiative in the beginning on the phase without adding more layers to it.
Valoy_Muniz
03-14-07, 03:09 PM Also rember during the surpise round the int does not help as much as things like spot. If they are unaware of the enemy the enemy can do some of there tricks back to them.
Arcade
03-14-07, 05:23 PM I think for your group, it would work, but as a general rule, I wouldn't use it. the initiative bonuses at lower levels are close enough together that they would be ultimately useless with a percentile die. Normally opponents boost their initiative at the same rate as most characters, or at least the average character, so this normally isn't an issue. If your characters boost their initiative sky high, monsters should likelyy do that same since it is such a good tactic.

The "go first, blast everything" strategy is usually only good when you are doing a few encounters per day, blowing your best spells, and resting right away. If you have multiple encounters or staggered encounters, this won't happen as much. By a staggered encounter, I mean an encounter that starts and then additional opponents join in after a few rounds, from hiding, reinforcements, summoning, etc.

One note is that you can still use a d20 for initiative and just divide all initiative bonuses by 2 to get the same result.
Patera_Quetzal
03-14-07, 06:12 PM If you want more variability in initiative rolls, then make the player's bonuses to initiative variable using the Variable Bonuses table in Unearthed Arcana, p. 132.
IronMouse
03-14-07, 07:15 PM An optiion is to roll for each round. It creates more chaos if thats what you are looking for.
I tried combats where initiative was rerolled each round. It's horrible, don't do it.
Ra-Tiel
03-15-07, 04:36 AM I tried combats where initiative was rerolled each round. It's horrible, don't do it.
I agree. It just doesn't work that well with the d20 system. Imagine a monk attacking a wizard: In the first round, the monk gets to act after the wizard. The wizard casts mag armor, and the monk attacks the wizard, stunning him with stunning fist. In the second round, the monk gets to act before the wizard and attacks him again but misses. The wizard now gets to act normally, because the stunning effect only lasts until the monk's next action.

Although the wizard was stunned for 1 round, he didn't loose any actions. If, however, the monk acted before the wizard in the first round and after the wizard in the second round, the wizard would have lost two rounds' worth of actions. I don't think that such randomness regarding the duration of status effects would actually improve the game.
Seldriss
03-16-07, 08:03 AM I tried combats where initiative was rerolled each round. It's horrible, don't do it.

I beg to differ.
I always used the initiative roll for each round, since 1st edition.
And it works fine, my players have always been happy with it.
It gives a chance to either party to turn tables, and to get an advantage in any given round.
I think it all depends on the way it is handled.

I must say that i also use weapon factors and spell casting time. And it works fine too.
gorckat
03-16-07, 10:25 AM Also- don't forget the Refocus action...it basically lets someone take 20 on a new initiative roll. I saw it this morning while skimming the combat chapter for random ideas...if a BBEG is already going last, he doesn't lose anything by just Refocusing if he gets to go first next round.
mike_beavers
03-16-07, 10:28 AM I have initative rolled each round. Ive been doing it since first ed. I believe it helps create chaos, my players are fine by it. Its not hard, I start high by calling out 25+, 24, 23 etc. keeps them and me on my toes. I pregenerate a series of initative rolls(excel is your friend for this) if I have alot of npc character types and start at a random line and go from there.

If there are alot of things going on have one of the players do the count. Its not dificult

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Relic 03-14-07, 10:26 AM	I have been thinking about turning Initiative into d100 instead of d20. Initiative modifiers would convert as well but I'm thinking of making it a +1 to +2 ratio (maybe a +1 to +3 ratio). Thus, for example, the Improved Initiative feat would give a +8 to initiative under this change. The idea is to increase the randomness of initiative. The player that had a +10 to Initiative would instead have a +20 to Initiative, increasing the randomness of that player's initiative. One reason for this change is to make tactics in the game more important. The tactic of "shoot first andy deny them the opportunity to act" becomes less reliable and other tactics would arise and become equally important. While this does negatively affect some classes whose abilities are partially tied to initiative (i.e. rogue and flat-footed opponents) I think that it is balanced in that it: 1) will, ultimately, affect all PCs, 2) reinforce teamwork, and 3) affects the PC's opponents as well. What merits (or lack thereof) do you think this idea has?
RobbyPants 03-14-07, 01:26 PM	It could work. It looks like you've already recognized some of the major balance issues. Don't expect many people to want to blow a feat on Improved Initiative;)
ZiggZagg 03-14-07, 01:34 PM	What is wrong with the way initiative works now?
Relic 03-14-07, 02:13 PM	What is wrong with the way initiative works now? The combination of ever-increasing potency of spells at the higher level and the reliance of focusing on having the fastest initiative possible to use said spells is too much a focus within my group. I want to curb this dependency of "going first" to force more creativity and teamwork within the party. With this change I'm hoping to make initiative less a near-guaranteed tactical option and give players (especially the non-casters) the option of trying out other tactics or ideas.
ZiggZagg 03-14-07, 02:17 PM	Have they worked to buff their intiative inorder to go first for that tactical advantage? Is this your fix to them creating a character that likes to strike first as their tactical advantage? Striking first has been an important tactic for a long time, why penalize that?
mike_beavers 03-14-07, 02:35 PM	There is still a strong variable the d20 itself for intiative. you could have a +10 and still roll a 1, odds are likely that somebody can beat you. An optiion is to roll for each round. It creates more chaos if thats what you are looking for.
Relic 03-14-07, 02:37 PM	Have they worked to buff their intiative inorder to go first for that tactical advantage? Is this your fix to them creating a character that likes to strike first as their tactical advantage? Striking first has been an important tactic for a long time, why penalize that? Striking first is an important tactic but when it becomes the sole tactic that each confrontation is built upon then it becomes an issue (as within my group). Encounters should be based on the a number of factors such as number of opponents, their capabilities, the environment, etc. With my group it seldom goes beyond... "we'll go first so the spellcaster(s) can cast maze or anti-magic field." Granted, I could tailor the encounters to rely upon the PCs going first but you can only do that so many times before it becomes cliche. Additionally, I do not think it is viable (as in honoring the concept of each opponent) to build every opponent toward the goal of first action. Most opponents have different strengths other than "going first." High Dex, initiative-boosting feats (such as Improved Initiative or Blooded), and class abilities/spells/psionics/etc are very common within my group. I do not think it is such a huge change that it changes the concept of such builds. Such builds will still be fast and will likely have a higher initiative than their non-initiative bonus counterparts. However, the likelihood of that always being the case is reduced. As mentioned, this change is deigned to introduce the players to different methodology and creativity. I think it accomplishes that will not making their character concepts obsolete.
Relic 03-14-07, 02:39 PM	There is still a strong variable the d20 itself for intiative. you could have a +10 and still roll a 1, odds are likely that somebody can beat you. An optiion is to roll for each round. It creates more chaos if thats what you are looking for. That also adds an additional die roll for combat and increases the amount of work that I, as the DM, have to keep track off. I'd rather deal with Initiative in the beginning on the phase without adding more layers to it.
Valoy_Muniz 03-14-07, 03:09 PM	Also rember during the surpise round the int does not help as much as things like spot. If they are unaware of the enemy the enemy can do some of there tricks back to them.
Arcade 03-14-07, 05:23 PM	I think for your group, it would work, but as a general rule, I wouldn't use it. the initiative bonuses at lower levels are close enough together that they would be ultimately useless with a percentile die. Normally opponents boost their initiative at the same rate as most characters, or at least the average character, so this normally isn't an issue. If your characters boost their initiative sky high, monsters should likelyy do that same since it is such a good tactic. The "go first, blast everything" strategy is usually only good when you are doing a few encounters per day, blowing your best spells, and resting right away. If you have multiple encounters or staggered encounters, this won't happen as much. By a staggered encounter, I mean an encounter that starts and then additional opponents join in after a few rounds, from hiding, reinforcements, summoning, etc. One note is that you can still use a d20 for initiative and just divide all initiative bonuses by 2 to get the same result.
Patera_Quetzal 03-14-07, 06:12 PM	If you want more variability in initiative rolls, then make the player's bonuses to initiative variable using the Variable Bonuses table in Unearthed Arcana, p. 132.
IronMouse 03-14-07, 07:15 PM	An optiion is to roll for each round. It creates more chaos if thats what you are looking for. I tried combats where initiative was rerolled each round. It's horrible, don't do it.
Ra-Tiel 03-15-07, 04:36 AM	I tried combats where initiative was rerolled each round. It's horrible, don't do it. I agree. It just doesn't work that well with the d20 system. Imagine a monk attacking a wizard: In the first round, the monk gets to act after the wizard. The wizard casts mag armor, and the monk attacks the wizard, stunning him with stunning fist. In the second round, the monk gets to act before the wizard and attacks him again but misses. The wizard now gets to act normally, because the stunning effect only lasts until the monk's next action. Although the wizard was stunned for 1 round, he didn't loose any actions. If, however, the monk acted before the wizard in the first round and after the wizard in the second round, the wizard would have lost two rounds' worth of actions. I don't think that such randomness regarding the duration of status effects would actually improve the game.
Seldriss 03-16-07, 08:03 AM	I tried combats where initiative was rerolled each round. It's horrible, don't do it. I beg to differ. I always used the initiative roll for each round, since 1st edition. And it works fine, my players have always been happy with it. It gives a chance to either party to turn tables, and to get an advantage in any given round. I think it all depends on the way it is handled. I must say that i also use weapon factors and spell casting time. And it works fine too.
gorckat 03-16-07, 10:25 AM	Also- don't forget the Refocus action...it basically lets someone take 20 on a new initiative roll. I saw it this morning while skimming the combat chapter for random ideas...if a BBEG is already going last, he doesn't lose anything by just Refocusing if he gets to go first next round.
mike_beavers 03-16-07, 10:28 AM	I have initative rolled each round. Ive been doing it since first ed. I believe it helps create chaos, my players are fine by it. Its not hard, I start high by calling out 25+, 24, 23 etc. keeps them and me on my toes. I pregenerate a series of initative rolls(excel is your friend for this) if I have alot of npc character types and start at a random line and go from there. If there are alot of things going on have one of the players do the count. Its not dificult