Project: Nethack. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Project: Nethack. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ShinoAburame
06-23-07, 03:29 PM I've been playing with ideas as you know to make D&D more gritty life-wise. Well, i've decided maybe to not discourage players, I'd keep the HP system, and infact fool them into thinking they'll have more power when infact they'll have less.

Step A: High Magic Campaign:
All classes will be spellcasters. Maybe not full-casters but all casters will cast spells. I may have to strengthen some classes to accomodate for this new setup. For one, all casters will cast spontanously and use the spellpoint varaint.

Sorcerer:
Hit die d8
Martial weapon profficientcy
Light armor profficietcy
No arcane spell failure with light armor

Paladin:
Hit die d12
Damage Reduction like barbarian
Instead of "detect evil" has detect poison/magic/undead.
Smite works on all foes and can be used with ranged attacks.
Gains the class-skill track. (Wisdom)
At 7th level gain damage reduction against magic equal to charisma modifier. (This stacks with your normal damage reduction)
At 11th level gain +X to your AC equal to your charisma modifier.
At 13th level gain +X to your massive damage threshold equal to your charisma modifier.
At 16th level add +X to all damage rolls (with weapons) equal to your charisma modifier.

Ranger:
Hit die d12.
All good saving throws.
No longer gains track as a feat but rather as a class skill (wisdom based)
Elude Touch*

At 12th level the ranger gets a +1 to AC.
At 14th level the ranger gets a +2 to AC Improved Elude Touch.
At 16th level the ranger gets a +3 to AC Greater Elude Touch.
At 18th level the ranger gets a +4 to AC Elude Touch Mastery.

Spellthief/Bard:
Hit die d8.
Gains the class-skill track (Wisdom).

Step B: Reflexes become more important, so does hit die.
Characters now have to roll each level (including first) for HP. This makes having a low hit-die extremely risky.

Also attack spells can fail, where they'd say to make a reflex save to do half damage, that still applies, but only if you failed the first reflex save to avoid a spell in the first-place! When a spell is cast the opponents may make a reflex saving throw equal to the caster's spellcraft skill-check.

Step C: Three Threat Variable!
There are three ways to commonly die, not counting spells, poisons, and crap.

-10 HP:
As always just beating someone down to negative hitpoints is an option. Albeit the most inefficient.

Massive Damage:
Massive Damage is damage greater then your con-score. You must make a fortitude saving throw of 15 or die. This can be easily negated though with the feat greater damage threshold.

Critical Death:
When you roll a critical (say a 19 or 20 for dagger), you not only deal more damage, but the opponent must make a fortitude save equal to the damage dealt by the weapon. If they fail, they die. This would explain why in a world of spells why people still use weapons, this kindof death-setence does not apply to spells!

Rule D: Supply and Demand:
I may have to change the price of weapons, but ultimately all weapons will be differant. Rather then dealing one generic polyhedreal, some weapons might deal 1d4, some might seal 1d6+1d8, others might deal 2d12 -3. The options are endless!

These differances in damage will make the prices have to accomodate. I'm going to try and make the economy more realistic and raise the standard of living. Say a commoner makes on an average week 100gold. And a longbow is thier idea of a gun, and gun commonly costs around a week's pay. Most weapons should not exceed 100gold by too much. Unless ofcourse they're magical.

As another measure, all weapons, even clubs/staves/slings/etc will cost money if only a few silvers. It would be stupid for them to be free, the only thing that should be free is your fists, and there are feats to center around that form of fighting!

Rule E: Size ignored for damage die.
I don't know how unbalancing this would be, but size becomes irrelevant to damage die. At most I might make case by case basis of if a creature can or cannot use a weapon. A hafling could make a longbow that's just a bit shorter for his stature and still function all the same. But obviously once you get to like.. the size of a fairy, it's a tooth-pick, so obviously you aren't going to be using weapons if you're that friggin small. At the same time, giants may not have longbows for the same reason, what? Are they going to use trees as arrows?

Rule F: Starting Weapon.
All races have a starting weapon they get for free to adventure with. Not sure about non-player handbook races but here go's something.

Elves:
Roll a d4 to see if they get a longsword, rapier, shortsword, or longbow.

Gnomes:
Get gnome hooked-hammer exotic weapon.

Orc:
Get orc double-axe exotic weapon.

Dwarf:
Get dwarven waraxe exotic weapon.

Human:
Get any simple weapon of the GM's choice as starting weapon.

Hafling:
Get sling as a starting weapon.

Rule G: No more half-*insert here*
I'm not really fond of generic humans in the fantasy world as it is. Let alone being known widely as the race that will screw anything that moves. So no half-races (sept maybe half-fiends/half-celestials) because most half-things suck.

What'chu think? It's obviously alot of changes, but well worth it I think.
koiulpoi
06-23-07, 04:15 PM Ooh! Will we have monsters that breath time and gravity on you? Or was that Angband? I always get my roguelikes mixed up.

Anyways, about your idea.

For the ranger, why don't they get track as a feat anymore? Why is it a class skill? Did you want to seperate it from "survival" that badly? Seems silly to me.

Rule E: Size ignored for damage die.
I don't know how unbalancing this would be, but size becomes irrelevant to damage die. At most I might make case by case basis of if a creature can or cannot use a weapon. A hafling could make a longbow that's just a bit shorter for his stature and still function all the same. But obviously once you get to like.. the size of a fairy, it's a tooth-pick, so obviously you aren't going to be using weapons if you're that friggin small. At the same time, giants may not have longbows for the same reason, what? Are they going to use trees as arrows?

So, being small in your world is an even bigger advantage than normal, because they don't lose out on damage. +1 to hit and +1 AC, +4 to hide (-4 grapple) and you still do normal damage? Probably worth it, and even more so for casters than usual.

Also, your "critical death" things extremely disfavors the players. Very, very much so. Anything that's more random favors the monsters, because the players'll face more monsters than the monsters will face players, if that makes sense. So, your raging barbarian with power attack comes in and does a critical, but rolls badly, let's say, 32 damage. Fort save of 32? Give me a break. You might as well say that all criticals are instant kills rather than give that joke of a save.

Other than that, I suppose it's allright, in some ways. I would hate playing it, to be fair. I don't understand why so many DMs have this need to invisibly nerf their players or to keep them down. I don't understand the need to have a "gritty, realistic" world. But, if your players agree and have fun, don't let me stop you!
zzo38
06-24-07, 12:47 AM Nethack? That would be more like old version of Dungeons and Dragons if you use stuff similar to Nethack. Newer version of Dungeons and Dragons is more similar to ADOM than Nethack (ADOM has skills/feats, any race/class combination, and some other things).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShinoAburame 06-23-07, 03:29 PM	I've been playing with ideas as you know to make D&D more gritty life-wise. Well, i've decided maybe to not discourage players, I'd keep the HP system, and infact fool them into thinking they'll have more power when infact they'll have less. Step A: High Magic Campaign: All classes will be spellcasters. Maybe not full-casters but all casters will cast spells. I may have to strengthen some classes to accomodate for this new setup. For one, all casters will cast spontanously and use the spellpoint varaint. Sorcerer: Hit die d8 Martial weapon profficientcy Light armor profficietcy No arcane spell failure with light armor Paladin: Hit die d12 Damage Reduction like barbarian Instead of "detect evil" has detect poison/magic/undead. Smite works on all foes and can be used with ranged attacks. Gains the class-skill track. (Wisdom) At 7th level gain damage reduction against magic equal to charisma modifier. (This stacks with your normal damage reduction) At 11th level gain +X to your AC equal to your charisma modifier. At 13th level gain +X to your massive damage threshold equal to your charisma modifier. At 16th level add +X to all damage rolls (with weapons) equal to your charisma modifier. Ranger: Hit die d12. All good saving throws. No longer gains track as a feat but rather as a class skill (wisdom based) Elude Touch* At 12th level the ranger gets a +1 to AC. At 14th level the ranger gets a +2 to AC Improved Elude Touch. At 16th level the ranger gets a +3 to AC Greater Elude Touch. At 18th level the ranger gets a +4 to AC Elude Touch Mastery. Spellthief/Bard: Hit die d8. Gains the class-skill track (Wisdom). Step B: Reflexes become more important, so does hit die. Characters now have to roll each level (including first) for HP. This makes having a low hit-die extremely risky. Also attack spells can fail, where they'd say to make a reflex save to do half damage, that still applies, but only if you failed the first reflex save to avoid a spell in the first-place! When a spell is cast the opponents may make a reflex saving throw equal to the caster's spellcraft skill-check. Step C: Three Threat Variable! There are three ways to commonly die, not counting spells, poisons, and crap. -10 HP: As always just beating someone down to negative hitpoints is an option. Albeit the most inefficient. Massive Damage: Massive Damage is damage greater then your con-score. You must make a fortitude saving throw of 15 or die. This can be easily negated though with the feat greater damage threshold. Critical Death: When you roll a critical (say a 19 or 20 for dagger), you not only deal more damage, but the opponent must make a fortitude save equal to the damage dealt by the weapon. If they fail, they die. This would explain why in a world of spells why people still use weapons, this kindof death-setence does not apply to spells! Rule D: Supply and Demand: I may have to change the price of weapons, but ultimately all weapons will be differant. Rather then dealing one generic polyhedreal, some weapons might deal 1d4, some might seal 1d6+1d8, others might deal 2d12 -3. The options are endless! These differances in damage will make the prices have to accomodate. I'm going to try and make the economy more realistic and raise the standard of living. Say a commoner makes on an average week 100gold. And a longbow is thier idea of a gun, and gun commonly costs around a week's pay. Most weapons should not exceed 100gold by too much. Unless ofcourse they're magical. As another measure, all weapons, even clubs/staves/slings/etc will cost money if only a few silvers. It would be stupid for them to be free, the only thing that should be free is your fists, and there are feats to center around that form of fighting! Rule E: Size ignored for damage die. I don't know how unbalancing this would be, but size becomes irrelevant to damage die. At most I might make case by case basis of if a creature can or cannot use a weapon. A hafling could make a longbow that's just a bit shorter for his stature and still function all the same. But obviously once you get to like.. the size of a fairy, it's a tooth-pick, so obviously you aren't going to be using weapons if you're that friggin small. At the same time, giants may not have longbows for the same reason, what? Are they going to use trees as arrows? Rule F: Starting Weapon. All races have a starting weapon they get for free to adventure with. Not sure about non-player handbook races but here go's something. Elves: Roll a d4 to see if they get a longsword, rapier, shortsword, or longbow. Gnomes: Get gnome hooked-hammer exotic weapon. Orc: Get orc double-axe exotic weapon. Dwarf: Get dwarven waraxe exotic weapon. Human: Get any simple weapon of the GM's choice as starting weapon. Hafling: Get sling as a starting weapon. Rule G: No more half-insert here I'm not really fond of generic humans in the fantasy world as it is. Let alone being known widely as the race that will screw anything that moves. So no half-races (sept maybe half-fiends/half-celestials) because most half-things suck. What'chu think? It's obviously alot of changes, but well worth it I think.
koiulpoi 06-23-07, 04:15 PM	Ooh! Will we have monsters that breath time and gravity on you? Or was that Angband? I always get my roguelikes mixed up. Anyways, about your idea. For the ranger, why don't they get track as a feat anymore? Why is it a class skill? Did you want to seperate it from "survival" that badly? Seems silly to me. Rule E: Size ignored for damage die. I don't know how unbalancing this would be, but size becomes irrelevant to damage die. At most I might make case by case basis of if a creature can or cannot use a weapon. A hafling could make a longbow that's just a bit shorter for his stature and still function all the same. But obviously once you get to like.. the size of a fairy, it's a tooth-pick, so obviously you aren't going to be using weapons if you're that friggin small. At the same time, giants may not have longbows for the same reason, what? Are they going to use trees as arrows? So, being small in your world is an even bigger advantage than normal, because they don't lose out on damage. +1 to hit and +1 AC, +4 to hide (-4 grapple) and you still do normal damage? Probably worth it, and even more so for casters than usual. Also, your "critical death" things extremely disfavors the players. Very, very much so. Anything that's more random favors the monsters, because the players'll face more monsters than the monsters will face players, if that makes sense. So, your raging barbarian with power attack comes in and does a critical, but rolls badly, let's say, 32 damage. Fort save of 32? Give me a break. You might as well say that all criticals are instant kills rather than give that joke of a save. Other than that, I suppose it's allright, in some ways. I would hate playing it, to be fair. I don't understand why so many DMs have this need to invisibly nerf their players or to keep them down. I don't understand the need to have a "gritty, realistic" world. But, if your players agree and have fun, don't let me stop you!
zzo38 06-24-07, 12:47 AM	Nethack? That would be more like old version of Dungeons and Dragons if you use stuff similar to Nethack. Newer version of Dungeons and Dragons is more similar to ADOM than Nethack (ADOM has skills/feats, any race/class combination, and some other things).