Proposed Enchanting system: Tradition [Archive] - Wizards Community

Proposed Enchanting system: Tradition [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lawrence
04-21-06, 10:03 PM Sorta got this idea out of reading a book. Ironically enough, it's similar to an old system I proposed for Sorcerers, but I like this better.

TRADITION

Tradition is the art of storing experience for magical items of all types - be they potions or magic swords

Basically, anyone with a caster level may store a certain amount of exp into a pool. Whenever the caster makes a magic item (they still need access to the creation feats, be it through another or taking it at some level) they can put points in for the xp.

Why do this instead of investing regular exp?

1) Exp put into Tradition follows, ironically enough, a tradition. If invested into expendable items (staves, potions, limited use wonderous items and rings, etc) the caster will gain the experience back if they wear the item out personally (or drink it, in the case of potions). Alternatively, if the caster sells the item, they sometimes get a portion of the experience back.
2)If you sell the item at full price, you have a 50% chance of getting half of the experience back. The reason behind this is magic is drawn to magic, but especially so when it was the same magic it was a part of prior. The reason there's only a chance (and it's only half) is that other magical creatures, items, or simply areas of high magic will get in the way of the tradition, and the magic will be steered towards them instead (magic is a fickle thing). If you sell the item at a reduced price, you have an increased chance of getting all the half % back (Essentially, every 2% you charge less, your 50% change of getting your half back goes up by 1. So an item sold at half price has a 75% chance of giving you half your tradition pool back. If you give the item away, you will always get at least half of the Tradition spent back because the act of giving proves a magical a magical link between you and the one acquiring the item (plot hint: you could use this for scrying or teleporting! if the DM feels like it).
3)If the DM decides the sale or gifting of a magical item is significant in some way (a good deed for a good character or an evil deed for an evil character), he can give the caster the other half of the magic back as well. This is completely up to the DM. THe simple manufacturing and distributing of magical items doesn't qualify as 'special' and thus you don't get more than the usual half.
4)Permanent magical items (magic swords and armor in particular) never give back their Tradition unless the caster personally disenchants the item he made. You cannot take tradition from items you personally didn't make, and the destruction of any said item doesn't make the points come back - they are forever lost. Items magically fixed still don't give the points back if they are later disenchanted - spells of that level are high, and wash out the Tradition in the item.
5) If you are in the habit of making a lot of magical items, you also have a lot of extra Tradition flying around. Any time you try to siphon Tradition back and your Tradition pool is already full, the excess Tradition is lost. You can only have so much at a time. Not even disenchanting a group of items in the process of creating a greater item will let you keep the points.
6) Your Tradition pool is equal to your caster level x 100, plus (or minus) another 100 per Charisma modifier.
7) you can invest xp into the Tradition at any time, but you cannot reduce your level in the process. losing a caster level (probably from losing a regular level) reduces your pool as per the formula. Charisma loss has the same effect. Points that become excess because of this are lost. (note, this only applies to permanent changes, not temporary ones).

Well, that's part of the idea anyways....any thoughts? ^-^;
mattdm
04-21-06, 10:20 PM What are you trying to accomplish with this? What problems is it intended to address, and/or what benefit is it intended to bring to a campaign?
Lawrence
04-21-06, 11:26 PM I want the option of magical item creation to be more plausible for caster types - in so far as investment goes. If they invest Exp into this, then part of their levels goes into their weapons, and taking care of them means they can 'keep' that exp sotospeak. Likewise, if they recycle items they make, it promotes a certain strategy in item making, at least ones you personally make.

It also makes potions more plausible for casters that want to be a sort of potion maker type (if you want to stereotype a little: witch potions). Rather than lose some experience making yourself little backups (which I hate, heh), you know that, in the case of potions, using them properly gets you back the exp, whereas treating them badly still makes you lose exp in the end.

Also, I think into things at times: why would a wizard or sorcerer or adept
have a potion shop, when making potions drains their abilities? THey would constantly have to venture out to make up for things that way. With the system, it's more plausible that, while running a potion shop, you're not draining yourself quite so quickly.

In the case of bigger magical items, the pool doesnt let you cover high scale things like 200k gold weapons (which are 4000 exp), but it covers part of it, and as such, it makes those items more valuable to the player.

I suppose the simple answer is: I don't like just handing out exp in items made, which makes your levels in the first place, without some sort of insurance. A Wizard or SOrcerer could make some scrolls and be a little more money based like the material needy fighters, and only suffer exp lost when they're being stupid (like leaving your scroll bag by itself for the rogue to swipe). Likewise, if a caster wanted to go into part time potion making to make a profit in a big city, they don't have to worry as much about the fact they just traded experience for gold pieces. Part or all of the Exp cost was covered thanks to the Tradition system. If they don't sell all their potions, then they can at least get the exp back, if not the gold that made the items in the first place.

It seemed like a good idea at the time. Still does, a little anyways.
mattdm
04-21-06, 11:41 PM Thanks. Here's some criticism which I hope will be constructive. :)

The first part -- getting back XP when you use your own items -- has an detremental side effect: it discourages making things to share with the party. And generally, mechanics should reward party cooperation, not discourage.

The part about sometimes-you-get-XP-back-when-you-sell-things is incredibly complicated and the justification is pretty thin. And linking XP to sale price is a dangerous road to tread. It might be better to just say "um, shopkeeper-focused wizards gain XP from the daily challanges of capitalism" and then wave your hands a bit. :)

And finally, making it charisma-based makes sorcerors the primo item-creators, whereas the base rules (free feats) tend towards it being more a wizard thing. That's not necessarily a problem, but something to be thinking about.
Lawrence
04-22-06, 12:21 AM True, it makes giving other party members a problem, but remember the part I said about 'gifting'. You are giving it to someone else, so that would apply.

THe selling bit should probably be modified, but I tried making something because of the potion shop theory - there needs to be some way it helps, along with making items for Party members, and at the time pricing seemed best. Being greedy gets you less tradition back, etc, etc.

It is a work in progress idea, lol... ;)

It was deliberately charisma based for that very reasoning. I don't like the fact that wizards have that invisible edge on sorcerers. That edge is such a problem, it's easier to make it irrelevant by making Sorcerers better at it, but wizards ironically find it more convenient. It also means that if a sorcerer does use it, they are probably specialized in a particular craft feat. Otherwise, Sorceres and Wizards would have to work together (which would be interesting).

I was tinkering with making wizards only proficent in so many schools of magic as a sort of balance...but that's another topic in itself.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lawrence 04-21-06, 10:03 PM	Sorta got this idea out of reading a book. Ironically enough, it's similar to an old system I proposed for Sorcerers, but I like this better. TRADITION Tradition is the art of storing experience for magical items of all types - be they potions or magic swords Basically, anyone with a caster level may store a certain amount of exp into a pool. Whenever the caster makes a magic item (they still need access to the creation feats, be it through another or taking it at some level) they can put points in for the xp. Why do this instead of investing regular exp? 1) Exp put into Tradition follows, ironically enough, a tradition. If invested into expendable items (staves, potions, limited use wonderous items and rings, etc) the caster will gain the experience back if they wear the item out personally (or drink it, in the case of potions). Alternatively, if the caster sells the item, they sometimes get a portion of the experience back. 2)If you sell the item at full price, you have a 50% chance of getting half of the experience back. The reason behind this is magic is drawn to magic, but especially so when it was the same magic it was a part of prior. The reason there's only a chance (and it's only half) is that other magical creatures, items, or simply areas of high magic will get in the way of the tradition, and the magic will be steered towards them instead (magic is a fickle thing). If you sell the item at a reduced price, you have an increased chance of getting all the half % back (Essentially, every 2% you charge less, your 50% change of getting your half back goes up by 1. So an item sold at half price has a 75% chance of giving you half your tradition pool back. If you give the item away, you will always get at least half of the Tradition spent back because the act of giving proves a magical a magical link between you and the one acquiring the item (plot hint: you could use this for scrying or teleporting! if the DM feels like it). 3)If the DM decides the sale or gifting of a magical item is significant in some way (a good deed for a good character or an evil deed for an evil character), he can give the caster the other half of the magic back as well. This is completely up to the DM. THe simple manufacturing and distributing of magical items doesn't qualify as 'special' and thus you don't get more than the usual half. 4)Permanent magical items (magic swords and armor in particular) never give back their Tradition unless the caster personally disenchants the item he made. You cannot take tradition from items you personally didn't make, and the destruction of any said item doesn't make the points come back - they are forever lost. Items magically fixed still don't give the points back if they are later disenchanted - spells of that level are high, and wash out the Tradition in the item. 5) If you are in the habit of making a lot of magical items, you also have a lot of extra Tradition flying around. Any time you try to siphon Tradition back and your Tradition pool is already full, the excess Tradition is lost. You can only have so much at a time. Not even disenchanting a group of items in the process of creating a greater item will let you keep the points. 6) Your Tradition pool is equal to your caster level x 100, plus (or minus) another 100 per Charisma modifier. 7) you can invest xp into the Tradition at any time, but you cannot reduce your level in the process. losing a caster level (probably from losing a regular level) reduces your pool as per the formula. Charisma loss has the same effect. Points that become excess because of this are lost. (note, this only applies to permanent changes, not temporary ones). Well, that's part of the idea anyways....any thoughts? ^-^;
mattdm 04-21-06, 10:20 PM	What are you trying to accomplish with this? What problems is it intended to address, and/or what benefit is it intended to bring to a campaign?
Lawrence 04-21-06, 11:26 PM	I want the option of magical item creation to be more plausible for caster types - in so far as investment goes. If they invest Exp into this, then part of their levels goes into their weapons, and taking care of them means they can 'keep' that exp sotospeak. Likewise, if they recycle items they make, it promotes a certain strategy in item making, at least ones you personally make. It also makes potions more plausible for casters that want to be a sort of potion maker type (if you want to stereotype a little: witch potions). Rather than lose some experience making yourself little backups (which I hate, heh), you know that, in the case of potions, using them properly gets you back the exp, whereas treating them badly still makes you lose exp in the end. Also, I think into things at times: why would a wizard or sorcerer or adept have a potion shop, when making potions drains their abilities? THey would constantly have to venture out to make up for things that way. With the system, it's more plausible that, while running a potion shop, you're not draining yourself quite so quickly. In the case of bigger magical items, the pool doesnt let you cover high scale things like 200k gold weapons (which are 4000 exp), but it covers part of it, and as such, it makes those items more valuable to the player. I suppose the simple answer is: I don't like just handing out exp in items made, which makes your levels in the first place, without some sort of insurance. A Wizard or SOrcerer could make some scrolls and be a little more money based like the material needy fighters, and only suffer exp lost when they're being stupid (like leaving your scroll bag by itself for the rogue to swipe). Likewise, if a caster wanted to go into part time potion making to make a profit in a big city, they don't have to worry as much about the fact they just traded experience for gold pieces. Part or all of the Exp cost was covered thanks to the Tradition system. If they don't sell all their potions, then they can at least get the exp back, if not the gold that made the items in the first place. It seemed like a good idea at the time. Still does, a little anyways.
mattdm 04-21-06, 11:41 PM	Thanks. Here's some criticism which I hope will be constructive. :) The first part -- getting back XP when you use your own items -- has an detremental side effect: it discourages making things to share with the party. And generally, mechanics should reward party cooperation, not discourage. The part about sometimes-you-get-XP-back-when-you-sell-things is incredibly complicated and the justification is pretty thin. And linking XP to sale price is a dangerous road to tread. It might be better to just say "um, shopkeeper-focused wizards gain XP from the daily challanges of capitalism" and then wave your hands a bit. :) And finally, making it charisma-based makes sorcerors the primo item-creators, whereas the base rules (free feats) tend towards it being more a wizard thing. That's not necessarily a problem, but something to be thinking about.
Lawrence 04-22-06, 12:21 AM	True, it makes giving other party members a problem, but remember the part I said about 'gifting'. You are giving it to someone else, so that would apply. THe selling bit should probably be modified, but I tried making something because of the potion shop theory - there needs to be some way it helps, along with making items for Party members, and at the time pricing seemed best. Being greedy gets you less tradition back, etc, etc. It is a work in progress idea, lol... ;) It was deliberately charisma based for that very reasoning. I don't like the fact that wizards have that invisible edge on sorcerers. That edge is such a problem, it's easier to make it irrelevant by making Sorcerers better at it, but wizards ironically find it more convenient. It also means that if a sorcerer does use it, they are probably specialized in a particular craft feat. Otherwise, Sorceres and Wizards would have to work together (which would be interesting). I was tinkering with making wizards only proficent in so many schools of magic as a sort of balance...but that's another topic in itself.