Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drake_the_Windseeker 08-20-04, 09:19 AM	Ok, the Unearthed Arcana book says that no two paragon racial classes can be mixed, save for the Half-Elf and Half-Orc. I spoke with a D&D vet about the Half-Dragon, about whether that race would be able to as well, and he seems to think that it should work. What are your thoughts on this?
Lilt 08-20-04, 09:49 AM	I think it should be allowed. Hey: Technically following the trend set by the half-orc and half-elf classes, a half-dragon should be able to take dragon paragon and *other half* paragon classes anyway. IMHO They just missed the 'divided ancestry' class feature in the half-dragon paragon and didn't include a dragon paragon class, which there should be.
VanDeBeast 08-20-04, 02:24 PM	I don't think they "just missed" the divided ancestry ability for the half-dragon paragon. Half-dragons are sufficiently different from both thier dragon and (demi)human parents that they really wouldn't ever be viewed as a paragon of dragonkind or (demi)humankind. Additionally, if one were to add divided ancestry, one should look at removing some other ability from the class.
Dlgood 08-23-04, 10:56 PM	It would depend. If a player in my campaign started took a racial paragon as a class, but then underwent a transformation into a different race, I would revoke the benefits of the Paragon levels on the grounds that they no longer qualified for the primary Paragon class. That most certainly includes a Human Paragon undergoing Dragon Apotheosis. Once your're Half-Dragon enough to pursue being a Half-Dragon paragon, then you are no longer human enough to remain a Human paragon. I'd let the character keep the BAB, saves, HP, and assigned skill points, but strip the class features.
Drake_the_Windseeker 08-23-04, 11:50 PM	Originally posted by Dlgood It would depend. If a player in my campaign started took a racial paragon as a class, but then underwent a transformation into a different race, I would revoke the benefits of the Paragon levels on the grounds that they no longer qualified for the primary Paragon class. That most certainly includes a Human Paragon undergoing Dragon Apotheosis. Once your're Half-Dragon enough to pursue being a Half-Dragon paragon, then you are no longer human enough to remain a Human paragon. I'd let the character keep the BAB, saves, HP, and assigned skill points, but strip the class features. What about the ability points gained while getting the Human Paragon racial class?
Dlgood 08-24-04, 07:42 AM	What about the ability points gained while getting the Human Paragon racial class? It's a class ability, so it's gone. As is the ability to designate a skill "class" for all future levels. I wouldn't revoke that one retroactively for skills already learned. You gain these abilities by being an examplar of your race. In pursing transcendance to the new race, you are casting that past behind to become something new. It can get complicated in certain cases. If a character was afflicted with Lycanthropy, I wouldn't revoke. Particularly if the Paragon character began pursuing a cure. But, if that character willingly underwent the transition to become a natural lycanthrope I would. How can the character consider themselves the paragon of (insert race here) when they choose to permanently become a different Type?
Drake_the_Windseeker 08-24-04, 09:21 AM	Originally posted by Dlgood It's a class ability, so it's gone. As is the ability to designate a skill "class" for all future levels. I wouldn't revoke that one retroactively for skills already learned. You gain these abilities by being an examplar of your race. In pursing transcendance to the new race, you are casting that past behind to become something new. It can get complicated in certain cases. If a character was afflicted with Lycanthropy, I wouldn't revoke. Particularly if the Paragon character began pursuing a cure. But, if that character willingly underwent the transition to become a natural lycanthrope I would. How can the character consider themselves the paragon of (insert race here) when they choose to permanently become a different Type? It's just that I agree with Lilt, and think that Divided Ancestry should be allowed for Half-Dragons. I think it's possible to be a paragon of either Human, Elf, etc., AND a Half-Dragon. But I guess it's at the DM's discretion.
Dlgood 08-24-04, 09:47 AM	Divided Ancestry should be allowed for Half-Dragons. I think it's possible to be a paragon of either Human, Elf, etc., AND a Half-Dragon. I'd separate this a bit. Racial "paragon" classes have requirements, and you must qualify to take them. And therefore, as with all other similar circumstances, if you lose the prerequisite, you lose the benefit. If the character begins play with the divided ancestry and takes the 1/2 Racial Paragon class first, then I would accept future levels in the second Racial Paragon class. For a Half-Elf, "Half-Elf Paragon" serves as prerequisite for Human or Elven Paragon. In the case of the Half-Dragon, I would still say no. The character is "Type: Dragon" and ineligble for classes that require characters to be Humanoid. I would make the same judgement for Half-Celestial and Half-Fiend as well. On the other hand, I would allow a Half-Giant to take "Human Paragon" levels if there were a 1/2 Giant Paragon Class out there, and the player could justify why it was in character. But to reiterate: if a character begins play as full-blooded member of one race, take that race's "paragon" class and the permanently acquires a template or become a different race, then the prior "paragon" special abilities should be forfeited. I would certainly apply that to Dragon Desciples, Elemental Savants, Alienists, and the other transformational classes. And for Liches, Vampires, and so on...
Dlgood 08-24-04, 10:06 AM	Double post
Fiendish Banana Golem 08-24-04, 11:45 AM	From UA: ...shapechanging and form-altering magics also cause no loss of a paragon's class abilities-the class abilities are affected no more or less drastically then benefits gained from having levels in any other class. For those people who would strip the abilities from someone who has sunk actual class levels into this...come on. It's not like you're a bloody Paladin with a code of behavior. There's no Code of Humanism which says, "Thou shalt always embody a human, in heart, mind, and form, or the gods shall smite you and remove class abilities from thou."
Dlgood 08-24-04, 11:56 AM	the class abilities are affected no more or less drastically then benefits gained from having levels in any other class. Barbarians who become lawful can no longer rage, and can no longer advance as Barbarians. A lawful bard and non-lawful monk can no longer advance. Characters must meet and maintain requirements for Prestige classes as well. There's precedent beyond just Paladins and Clerics/Druids.
Fiendish Banana Golem 08-24-04, 11:56 AM	Barbarians who become lawful can no longer rage, and can no longer advance as Barbarians. A lawful bard and non-lawful monk can no longer advance. Characters must meet and maintain requirements for Prestige classes as well. Yeah, and? Show me the passage in the Human paragon that says "Human paragons that become non-human loose all class benefits."
Dlgood 08-24-04, 12:16 PM	In a book in which it's rather explicitly stated that all rules are DM optional... The answer is: It's the DM's option - more so than other books. If a player fails to meet qualification for a class, then some abilities are going to be under question. Lawful Barbarian's don't get to rage anymore. I don't think it's really to radical to suggest that a character who seeks to transcend the prior race loses some Paragon Special Abilties. shapechanging and form-altering magics also cause no loss of a paragon's class abilities In reference to what. A sorceror under the effects of a polymorph is quite different than an Alienist undergoing rituals to transform permanently into a psuedonatural creature. Behind the curtain, and that's where this is, these rules serve a balancing function. Because role-playing restrictions don't address mechanics. And the role-playing aspects of a character that sees themselves as enough of a "racial paragon" to devote themselves to a Paragon Class no longer being a member of that race ought to be more than insignificant. Instituting such rules enforces that they are. I'm curious, BTW, if anyone had thought to playtest the scenario of a template hopper attempting to stockpile Paragon class levels. As they undoubtedly must have considered the balance issues of combining Barbarian Rage with a Monk's Flurry.