question about reducing level adjustment [Archive] - Wizards Community

question about reducing level adjustment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Paladin18
03-04-06, 04:37 PM I'm wondering how balanced the variant rule about reducing level adjustment is. I have one player in my group who is playing an elf with the winged template (+2 level adjustment) and wants to be able to reduce his level adjustment via the rules in Unearthed Arcana. The four other players in my group do not have a level adjustment. If I allow him to buy off his level adjustment, won't he eventually catch up to the rest of the party in level and effectively be two levels higher than them? Is this rule fair to the rest of the party?
Mist of Shadows
03-04-06, 04:51 PM Alright I'll point something out. By level 5 you can easily have a magical item that lets you fly tens of minutes per day. by level 9 the level that you could by off an ecl of 2 completely. You could have an item that let you fly for as long as you want. For not that great an investment in gold compared to his level's expected wealth. I can see why it's fair to buy off la. Now people say that items of flying can be stolen. Well I can cut the wings off a winged character andby the rules they still have that la 2 is that fair?

I don't feel that the la system is fair or balanced in the first place. I mean sure a celestial is more powerful then a normal criter but are they stupider? Are they really less able to learn? That's basically what la says. (Okay it also says that they are tougher in some way and get less out of things than others would.) But the level system has some large issues. Letting a character buy off the la isn't really unbalanced, it's just a way to say that the things that mattered at one point are less of an issue then they once were. For example just because you're a dragon doesn't mean much when you have fighting balors at level 20 or so. So yeah buying off that la is fair in some cases. But hey that's something a dm has to deal with.
Morwen
03-04-06, 06:19 PM He will eventually catch up with the party in terms of character level, yes, but that will be at such a late level that the Winged template probably doesn't give him all that much of a benefit anymore.

Consider that he'll not be able to buy off the first point of LA until he reaches his 6th class level, and then the second point of LA when he reaches his 9th class level. At that point, most of the rest of the characters should be around 11th level, and he'll likely not catch completely up until 13th-15th level (without having made calculations on it).
Vaelan
03-04-06, 11:00 PM LA Buy-off is based on the assumption that racial abilities become less useful as you become higher level.

ince flight is an ability that becomes less useful as you become higher level, there shouldn't be any problem with buying off the LA.

Spell Resistance is the only common trait I've seen that makes LA buy-off inappropriate.
Verelor
03-05-06, 12:19 AM Don't foget racial bonuses to Armor Class. That is always useful. See svirfneblin if you're still confused.
Paladin18
03-05-06, 12:48 AM It's not so much the wings that I'm worried about, it more about the +4 dex and +2 wisdom that he gets from the template. Will this balance out at later levels like the wings? Thanks for the responses thus far.
Mobiledwm
03-05-06, 05:57 AM I am not really a fan of LA buybacks, though I do agree that they get less powerful as the character gets higher level.

The problem being that all the LAs I have seen (That players actually take ,that is) give abilities that are useful at all levels, even though they are much mroe powerful at low levels.

Take Half Dragon. Sure at level 4 they are really weak, but by level 7th or so, they have balanced out with a typical human fighter in many ways, and are roughly comperable. Without the LA they are clearly superior.

Now by 15th level they are roughly equal to said fighter, but their racial abilities (stat increases, vision and natural armor) are still very very useful in combat, but also in non-combat situations. They still need the LA to balance themselves.

Now by near-epic levels, the difference is very slight, and the dragon abilities can easily and cheaply be copied with magical items. The LA justification is very iffy now.

------------

But to make a decision, I do not allow characters to buy off LA. The main reason is that a +1 LA is simplicity itself to buy off, and a +4 or higher is just plain impossible in any reasonable campaign. Giving up 3000 xp for the abilities of a good LA+1 race like Aasimar for example is a very attractive prospect for a min-maxer. Even a drow at 15,000 xp is not a big penalty in a high level game, much less at epic level where that is half or less of a level.

Now I also do not adjust xp for different character levels, so in my games a character who gets behind the xp curve (due to death, level drain, or over-use of limited wish) will never catch up unless they can do a bit of a solo adventure, which is usually not allowed.

But do what works for you. If only one character has a LA, I would not let them buy it off. And I would ESPECIALLY not allow them to get more xp because they are a lower character level. Soon enough they will be more powerful than the other characters, and that could cause resentment

DWM
Lotus Crane
03-05-06, 10:19 AM Personally I'm not a fan of LA-buyoff; I prefer it when a LA race is designed with abilities that scale over time, so that the LA becomes more worth it over time, instead of less. In the MM1 that's pretty much just the half-celestial and half-fiend templates, with their increasing spell-like abilities over time. In more recent times, Races of the Wild even gave us a flying LA 0 race, the raptorans, that are balanced because they don't gain true flight until they reach 5 HD, and even that is limited by duration until they reach 10 HD.

Or you know, the other solution is to either do something similiar to a savage progression, except replace all the LA with racial levels (not to be confused with relatively inferior racial HD). Mind taking a look at my Re-Balanced Races (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=596634) and telling me what you think?
Mist of Shadows
03-05-06, 03:00 PM You could always just ignore the la.

My games I just apply the la adjustment to the characters level for exp gathering. So with the la 4 template, a first level character counts as 4th level though he only needs 1000 to advance. It's just harder to get then a person without the la.
Vaelan
03-06-06, 05:11 AM Don't foget racial bonuses to Armor Class. That is always useful. See svirfneblin if you're still confused.
Racial bonuses to armor class become less useful as you advance in level because your armor class will rise due to other factors. A +4 dodge bonus to AC is a lot better at level 5 than level 15.

I was speaking of traits that scale with character level, such as the svirfneblin's SR (even though the writers screwed it up).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paladin18 03-04-06, 04:37 PM	I'm wondering how balanced the variant rule about reducing level adjustment is. I have one player in my group who is playing an elf with the winged template (+2 level adjustment) and wants to be able to reduce his level adjustment via the rules in Unearthed Arcana. The four other players in my group do not have a level adjustment. If I allow him to buy off his level adjustment, won't he eventually catch up to the rest of the party in level and effectively be two levels higher than them? Is this rule fair to the rest of the party?
Mist of Shadows 03-04-06, 04:51 PM	Alright I'll point something out. By level 5 you can easily have a magical item that lets you fly tens of minutes per day. by level 9 the level that you could by off an ecl of 2 completely. You could have an item that let you fly for as long as you want. For not that great an investment in gold compared to his level's expected wealth. I can see why it's fair to buy off la. Now people say that items of flying can be stolen. Well I can cut the wings off a winged character andby the rules they still have that la 2 is that fair? I don't feel that the la system is fair or balanced in the first place. I mean sure a celestial is more powerful then a normal criter but are they stupider? Are they really less able to learn? That's basically what la says. (Okay it also says that they are tougher in some way and get less out of things than others would.) But the level system has some large issues. Letting a character buy off the la isn't really unbalanced, it's just a way to say that the things that mattered at one point are less of an issue then they once were. For example just because you're a dragon doesn't mean much when you have fighting balors at level 20 or so. So yeah buying off that la is fair in some cases. But hey that's something a dm has to deal with.
Morwen 03-04-06, 06:19 PM	He will eventually catch up with the party in terms of character level, yes, but that will be at such a late level that the Winged template probably doesn't give him all that much of a benefit anymore. Consider that he'll not be able to buy off the first point of LA until he reaches his 6th class level, and then the second point of LA when he reaches his 9th class level. At that point, most of the rest of the characters should be around 11th level, and he'll likely not catch completely up until 13th-15th level (without having made calculations on it).
Vaelan 03-04-06, 11:00 PM	LA Buy-off is based on the assumption that racial abilities become less useful as you become higher level. ince flight is an ability that becomes less useful as you become higher level, there shouldn't be any problem with buying off the LA. Spell Resistance is the only common trait I've seen that makes LA buy-off inappropriate.
Verelor 03-05-06, 12:19 AM	Don't foget racial bonuses to Armor Class. That is always useful. See svirfneblin if you're still confused.
Paladin18 03-05-06, 12:48 AM	It's not so much the wings that I'm worried about, it more about the +4 dex and +2 wisdom that he gets from the template. Will this balance out at later levels like the wings? Thanks for the responses thus far.
Mobiledwm 03-05-06, 05:57 AM	I am not really a fan of LA buybacks, though I do agree that they get less powerful as the character gets higher level. The problem being that all the LAs I have seen (That players actually take ,that is) give abilities that are useful at all levels, even though they are much mroe powerful at low levels. Take Half Dragon. Sure at level 4 they are really weak, but by level 7th or so, they have balanced out with a typical human fighter in many ways, and are roughly comperable. Without the LA they are clearly superior. Now by 15th level they are roughly equal to said fighter, but their racial abilities (stat increases, vision and natural armor) are still very very useful in combat, but also in non-combat situations. They still need the LA to balance themselves. Now by near-epic levels, the difference is very slight, and the dragon abilities can easily and cheaply be copied with magical items. The LA justification is very iffy now. ------------ But to make a decision, I do not allow characters to buy off LA. The main reason is that a +1 LA is simplicity itself to buy off, and a +4 or higher is just plain impossible in any reasonable campaign. Giving up 3000 xp for the abilities of a good LA+1 race like Aasimar for example is a very attractive prospect for a min-maxer. Even a drow at 15,000 xp is not a big penalty in a high level game, much less at epic level where that is half or less of a level. Now I also do not adjust xp for different character levels, so in my games a character who gets behind the xp curve (due to death, level drain, or over-use of limited wish) will never catch up unless they can do a bit of a solo adventure, which is usually not allowed. But do what works for you. If only one character has a LA, I would not let them buy it off. And I would ESPECIALLY not allow them to get more xp because they are a lower character level. Soon enough they will be more powerful than the other characters, and that could cause resentment DWM
Lotus Crane 03-05-06, 10:19 AM	Personally I'm not a fan of LA-buyoff; I prefer it when a LA race is designed with abilities that scale over time, so that the LA becomes more worth it over time, instead of less. In the MM1 that's pretty much just the half-celestial and half-fiend templates, with their increasing spell-like abilities over time. In more recent times, Races of the Wild even gave us a flying LA 0 race, the raptorans, that are balanced because they don't gain true flight until they reach 5 HD, and even that is limited by duration until they reach 10 HD. Or you know, the other solution is to either do something similiar to a savage progression, except replace all the LA with racial levels (not to be confused with relatively inferior racial HD). Mind taking a look at my Re-Balanced Races (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=596634) and telling me what you think?
Mist of Shadows 03-05-06, 03:00 PM	You could always just ignore the la. My games I just apply the la adjustment to the characters level for exp gathering. So with the la 4 template, a first level character counts as 4th level though he only needs 1000 to advance. It's just harder to get then a person without the la.
Vaelan 03-06-06, 05:11 AM	Don't foget racial bonuses to Armor Class. That is always useful. See svirfneblin if you're still confused. Racial bonuses to armor class become less useful as you advance in level because your armor class will rise due to other factors. A +4 dodge bonus to AC is a lot better at level 5 than level 15. I was speaking of traits that scale with character level, such as the svirfneblin's SR (even though the writers screwed it up).