Questions about Gestalts. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Questions about Gestalts. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Meyer_William
06-11-07, 07:45 PM OK ... I admit ... I am clueless about this stuff. I read the posts and people all have differing opinions on things so here goes.

1) Fighter 1 / Sorceror 19: Wizard 20 -- BAB 20 or 10?
2) For an elf -- Cleric 20: Rogue 18: PRC 2 -- XP Penalty or not (and why)
3) In one level, taking Sacred Exorcist and cleric ...
4) Daring Outlaw Swashbuckler 10/rogue 10 ... what happens?
5) Daring Outlaw Swashbucker 10/rogue 10/ ranger 10/scout 10 ... what happens?

More questions as I think of them...
Neutronium_Dragon
06-11-07, 07:52 PM 1) Assuming that one side is Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19, and the other is Wizard 20, he'd have BAB +10 (since that's the best that either side has).

2) I'd have to double check, but I think that gestalt ignores multiclass XP penalties. In any case, neither side would qualify for one (Cleric 20 doesn't cause one, and Rogue 18/PrC 2 doesn't cause one), so there wouldn't be any.

3) Any casting progression from the PrC would have to be counted towards some other class.

4) Gestalt specifically disallows the use of "hybridization" game elements, and that would extend to feats like Daring Outlaw.

5) Ditto.
Meyer_William
06-11-07, 09:45 PM Sorry if I was unclear ...

The cleric 20:Rogue 18/Pr2 -- should have been like this

Cleric 10 : Rogue 8 / Prc2 -- then having 10 more levels of Cleric : Rogue -- so for 10 levels, the Cleric and Rogue side are out of balance ...
Neutronium_Dragon
06-11-07, 10:25 PM I don't think they'd qualify as uneven because they're on different sides of the gestalt. The "cleric X" side is considered separately from the "rogue X" side.

But in general, multiclassing XP penalties of any sort are best done away with in gestalt simply because they unduly complicate an already complicated process. (Most people already do away with them since they're not really a factor in game balance.)
Lawkeeper
06-12-07, 02:56 AM Neutronium, I don't think you understand correctly the mechanics of gestalting.
1) Assuming that one side is Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19, and the other is Wizard 20, he'd have BAB +10 (since that's the best that either side has).
Good result but wrong method.
You don't compute the BAB of each side then compare. Instead, at each level you add the best feature of the two classes you choose. At first level, it's +1 from the fighter ; the nineteen following levels, it's a +1/2 from either class. In the end, it's +10 1/2 BAB, rounded to +10.

2) I'd have to double check, but I think that gestalt ignores multiclass XP penalties. In any case, neither side would qualify for one (Cleric 20 doesn't cause one, and Rogue 18/PrC 2 doesn't cause one), so there wouldn't be any.
I never saw anything RAW stating that (even if it's a house-rule of mine - but then, I also forbid taking any class past level 2 that isn't a favored class). Moreover, no, you don't check one "side" at a time : it's a whole (that's the meaning of gestalt).
So, Meyer_William, in this case, you'd get a multiclass penalty of 20% for the rogue class being two levels under the cleric's.
Unless either cleric or rogue is a favored class of yours. I refer you to the Races of Destiny and UA which each have a feat giving an additional favored class : those are the best friends of the more ambitious gestalt-builds.

3) Any casting progression from the PrC would have to be counted towards some other class.
True. Moreover, the gestalt rules make much more sense if you interpret them as forbidding a caster level or spell progression higher than your character level (or hit dice depending on the case).

4) Gestalt specifically disallows the use of "hybridization" game elements, and that would extend to feats like Daring Outlaw.
Nope. It merely suggests to disallow some elements of hybridization, like some PrCs, although the example given is much more powerful than any PrC ever written by WotC (full BAB, two excellent saves, bunch of skills, lots of features AND full spellcasting - no "regular" PrC ever went so far, even the mystic theurge).

So, what happens ? look again on my answer for the third point : no class feature can be of a level equivalent higher than your character level. The Daring Outlaw feat would give benefits only if the gestalt isn't a pure swashbuckler/rogue, and only up to your current character level.
For example, suppose a swashbuckler6/rogue4//rogue2/sorceror4/swashbuckler1/sorcerer3 : that critter has in total 7 levels of swashbuckler and 6 levels of rogue, for a total of 13. As he's only a tenth level's character, he only gets the abilities up to 10th level, not higher. So, 5d6 sneak attack, grace +1, dodge +2 instead of 3d6 sneak attack, grace +1, dodge +1 (version without the feat) or 7d6sneak attack, grace +2, dodge +2 (version with the feat but without the cap). Clearly, some levels of swashbuckler and/or rogue are partly "wasted", but not wholly.

But in general, multiclassing XP penalties of any sort are best done away with in gestalt simply because they unduly complicate an already complicated process. (Most people already do away with them since they're not really a factor in game balance.)
I fully agree. Drop the XP penalties and replace the advantage of not counting favored classes for uneven levels with another advantage, like an extra skill point of two for every level of a favored class, and you'll be fine. With dwarves, elves, halfling and others finally having a reason to take a full fighter, wizard, rogue or other path rather than any different kind.
enlightened
06-12-07, 05:08 PM 1) 4) Gestalt specifically disallows the use of "hybridization" game elements, and that would extend to feats like Daring Outlaw.

Lawkeeper said the same thing in the middle of his post, but it bears repeating because it is easy to overlook.

Hybridizations in gestalt are only recommended against not specifically disallowed.

My group doesn't ban hybridizations (or even taking PRCs on both sides) and we have never had any problems......unless you consider having lots of options a problem.
Meyer_William
06-13-07, 08:00 AM So ... what I am hearing, is that Gestalts as written ... complete with recommendations -- are almost never actually played ...

Instead the following house rules are used:
Hybridization allowed
No XP penalty for Multiclassing ...

Got it ....
strenoth
06-13-07, 10:09 PM actually, I disallow 'pure' hybrids (like MT), but allow minor hybrids like Abjurant Champion, and simply upgrade hybrid-specialists like True Necromancer to be a "both sides" Gestalt PrC
wizardguy2003
06-16-07, 10:28 PM Been reading several threads and to be honest, I am starting to get a headache trying to follow some of the convoluted explanations for how the progressions work This is how I understand it myself ,and please correct me if I am wrong. Basically, if my gestalt goes up a level, I would check both class bonus progressions and only add to its numbers if the ones shown are higher. For example, I have a +2 BaB and I notice my one class gets no progression, but my second class went up by one to a +3, so my BaB now becomes +3. I do NOT get it if my second class goes up, but the result is still equal to or less than my current +2.
Lawkeeper
06-17-07, 04:50 AM Been reading several threads and to be honest, I am starting to get a headache trying to follow some of the convoluted explanations for how the progressions work This is how I understand it myself ,and please correct me if I am wrong. Basically, if my gestalt goes up a level, I would check both class bonus progressions and only add to its numbers if the ones shown are higher. For example, I have a +2 BaB and I notice my one class gets no progression, but my second class went up by one to a +3, so my BaB now becomes +3. I do NOT get it if my second class goes up, but the result is still equal to or less than my current +2.
Hum, I'm not sure I correctly understood what you said, but what I understood seems wrong in the last sentence : you don't look at your current BAB, only on the progression of the classes you just took - and there, you take the best of each. So, to take an example, if you are a wizard3//fighter3, you have a BAB of +3, and take one level of wizard and one level of rogue on your fourth level, your wizard's BAB would go from +1 to +2, while your rogue's BAB is +0 ; the best progression is your wizard's, which goes by +1 - your BAB will then be +4.

For base saves and BAB, the best, simplest solution is to adopt the partial progression from the UA (which sadly is not in the srd).
BillTheManiac
06-17-07, 11:07 AM Been reading several threads and to be honest, I am starting to get a headache trying to follow some of the convoluted explanations for how the progressions work This is how I understand it myself ,and please correct me if I am wrong. Basically, if my gestalt goes up a level, I would check both class bonus progressions and only add to its numbers if the ones shown are higher. For example, I have a +2 BaB and I notice my one class gets no progression, but my second class went up by one to a +3, so my BaB now becomes +3. I do NOT get it if my second class goes up, but the result is still equal to or less than my current +2.

Sorry. That's a little too broken.

Fighter 1/Wizard 19//Sorcerer 20
Y=BAB advance on this side. N=No BAB advance on this side.
Y//N
N//Y
Y//N
N//Y
Y//N
N//Y
Y//N
N//Y
Y//N
N//Y
Y//N
N//Y
Y//N
N//Y
Y//N
N//Y
Y//N
N//Y
Y//N
N//Y
+20 BAB=BAD!!!!! Instead, use fractional BAB and saves. Fractional BAB and saves - Because it's not crazy to have a game system with sanity.
wizardguy2003
06-17-07, 12:05 PM Are we saying that if I check for the best progression and I find that my one class doesn't change, but based on the progression chart of my other class, they have gone from a +0 to a +1 so I get a +1 to my BAB even if my BAB is already a +1 or higher? That seems a little ridiculous.
Lawkeeper
06-17-07, 12:49 PM Are we saying that if I check for the best progression and I find that my one class doesn't change, but based on the progression chart of my other class, they have gone from a +0 to a +1 so I get a +1 to my BAB even if my BAB is already a +1 or higher? That seems a little ridiculous.
Yes and yes. But it's RAW. And that's why using the fractional progression is better.

Or at least, less ridiculous.
wizardguy2003
06-17-07, 04:42 PM That isn't the way I read it in UA. It is a gestalt character, in other words a merging of two classes into a third class. In my mind, not a ranger/wizard for example, but a new class of "ranger wizard". The rules say you chose the best progression if it's an overlapping ability and both if it isn't. So in that example the full progression of the ranger when it comes to BAB is still better than the wizard, regardless of the level. Otherwise your talking about multiclassing rules where they all do stack, demonstrating education and advancement in two seperate classes. The optional fractional progression seems to state it is designed for multiclassing characters, not gestalts. The real confusion I only really see is the option of choosing two different classes each level, since that is how rules seem to be worded. I personally wouldn't allow it just to save the massive headaches I can see it causing.
Lawkeeper
06-18-07, 06:24 AM Then I bet you forgot to put your lenses.:)

From the srd :
In this high-powered campaign variant, characters essentially take two classes at every level, choosing the best aspects of each.
Characters take two classes at every level : it doesn't say they pick two classes and follow the progression from beginning to end, they just pick two different classes at each level. They do not need to take the same classes every time, nor to always take the same combinations of classes.

Now, please note it's an optional rule, and optional rules are even more subject to the sacred rule of RPGing than the default rules : if a particular rule doesn't suit the DM, then the rule is wrong. Your DM might enforce a different view (like using the fractional progressions).
wizardguy2003
06-18-07, 01:06 PM Maybe you should wear yours too. ;)

The real confusion I only really see is the option of choosing two different classes each level, since that is how rules seem to be worded. I personally wouldn't allow it just to save the massive headaches I can see it causing.

Taking a gestalt of two different classes every time is of course possible, and in that case I can see how you'd basically need to use the optional fractional system to make it easier to work with. My comments envolved if you stick with your original gestalt idea.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meyer_William 06-11-07, 07:45 PM	OK ... I admit ... I am clueless about this stuff. I read the posts and people all have differing opinions on things so here goes. 1) Fighter 1 / Sorceror 19: Wizard 20 -- BAB 20 or 10? 2) For an elf -- Cleric 20: Rogue 18: PRC 2 -- XP Penalty or not (and why) 3) In one level, taking Sacred Exorcist and cleric ... 4) Daring Outlaw Swashbuckler 10/rogue 10 ... what happens? 5) Daring Outlaw Swashbucker 10/rogue 10/ ranger 10/scout 10 ... what happens? More questions as I think of them...
Neutronium_Dragon 06-11-07, 07:52 PM	1) Assuming that one side is Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19, and the other is Wizard 20, he'd have BAB +10 (since that's the best that either side has). 2) I'd have to double check, but I think that gestalt ignores multiclass XP penalties. In any case, neither side would qualify for one (Cleric 20 doesn't cause one, and Rogue 18/PrC 2 doesn't cause one), so there wouldn't be any. 3) Any casting progression from the PrC would have to be counted towards some other class. 4) Gestalt specifically disallows the use of "hybridization" game elements, and that would extend to feats like Daring Outlaw. 5) Ditto.
Meyer_William 06-11-07, 09:45 PM	Sorry if I was unclear ... The cleric 20:Rogue 18/Pr2 -- should have been like this Cleric 10 : Rogue 8 / Prc2 -- then having 10 more levels of Cleric : Rogue -- so for 10 levels, the Cleric and Rogue side are out of balance ...
Neutronium_Dragon 06-11-07, 10:25 PM	I don't think they'd qualify as uneven because they're on different sides of the gestalt. The "cleric X" side is considered separately from the "rogue X" side. But in general, multiclassing XP penalties of any sort are best done away with in gestalt simply because they unduly complicate an already complicated process. (Most people already do away with them since they're not really a factor in game balance.)
Lawkeeper 06-12-07, 02:56 AM	Neutronium, I don't think you understand correctly the mechanics of gestalting. 1) Assuming that one side is Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19, and the other is Wizard 20, he'd have BAB +10 (since that's the best that either side has). Good result but wrong method. You don't compute the BAB of each side then compare. Instead, at each level you add the best feature of the two classes you choose. At first level, it's +1 from the fighter ; the nineteen following levels, it's a +1/2 from either class. In the end, it's +10 1/2 BAB, rounded to +10. 2) I'd have to double check, but I think that gestalt ignores multiclass XP penalties. In any case, neither side would qualify for one (Cleric 20 doesn't cause one, and Rogue 18/PrC 2 doesn't cause one), so there wouldn't be any. I never saw anything RAW stating that (even if it's a house-rule of mine - but then, I also forbid taking any class past level 2 that isn't a favored class). Moreover, no, you don't check one "side" at a time : it's a whole (that's the meaning of gestalt). So, Meyer_William, in this case, you'd get a multiclass penalty of 20% for the rogue class being two levels under the cleric's. Unless either cleric or rogue is a favored class of yours. I refer you to the Races of Destiny and UA which each have a feat giving an additional favored class : those are the best friends of the more ambitious gestalt-builds. 3) Any casting progression from the PrC would have to be counted towards some other class. True. Moreover, the gestalt rules make much more sense if you interpret them as forbidding a caster level or spell progression higher than your character level (or hit dice depending on the case). 4) Gestalt specifically disallows the use of "hybridization" game elements, and that would extend to feats like Daring Outlaw. Nope. It merely suggests to disallow some elements of hybridization, like some PrCs, although the example given is much more powerful than any PrC ever written by WotC (full BAB, two excellent saves, bunch of skills, lots of features AND full spellcasting - no "regular" PrC ever went so far, even the mystic theurge). So, what happens ? look again on my answer for the third point : no class feature can be of a level equivalent higher than your character level. The Daring Outlaw feat would give benefits only if the gestalt isn't a pure swashbuckler/rogue, and only up to your current character level. For example, suppose a swashbuckler6/rogue4//rogue2/sorceror4/swashbuckler1/sorcerer3 : that critter has in total 7 levels of swashbuckler and 6 levels of rogue, for a total of 13. As he's only a tenth level's character, he only gets the abilities up to 10th level, not higher. So, 5d6 sneak attack, grace +1, dodge +2 instead of 3d6 sneak attack, grace +1, dodge +1 (version without the feat) or 7d6sneak attack, grace +2, dodge +2 (version with the feat but without the cap). Clearly, some levels of swashbuckler and/or rogue are partly "wasted", but not wholly. But in general, multiclassing XP penalties of any sort are best done away with in gestalt simply because they unduly complicate an already complicated process. (Most people already do away with them since they're not really a factor in game balance.) I fully agree. Drop the XP penalties and replace the advantage of not counting favored classes for uneven levels with another advantage, like an extra skill point of two for every level of a favored class, and you'll be fine. With dwarves, elves, halfling and others finally having a reason to take a full fighter, wizard, rogue or other path rather than any different kind.
enlightened 06-12-07, 05:08 PM	1) 4) Gestalt specifically disallows the use of "hybridization" game elements, and that would extend to feats like Daring Outlaw. Lawkeeper said the same thing in the middle of his post, but it bears repeating because it is easy to overlook. Hybridizations in gestalt are only recommended against not specifically disallowed. My group doesn't ban hybridizations (or even taking PRCs on both sides) and we have never had any problems......unless you consider having lots of options a problem.
Meyer_William 06-13-07, 08:00 AM	So ... what I am hearing, is that Gestalts as written ... complete with recommendations -- are almost never actually played ... Instead the following house rules are used: Hybridization allowed No XP penalty for Multiclassing ... Got it ....
strenoth 06-13-07, 10:09 PM	actually, I disallow 'pure' hybrids (like MT), but allow minor hybrids like Abjurant Champion, and simply upgrade hybrid-specialists like True Necromancer to be a "both sides" Gestalt PrC
wizardguy2003 06-16-07, 10:28 PM	Been reading several threads and to be honest, I am starting to get a headache trying to follow some of the convoluted explanations for how the progressions work This is how I understand it myself ,and please correct me if I am wrong. Basically, if my gestalt goes up a level, I would check both class bonus progressions and only add to its numbers if the ones shown are higher. For example, I have a +2 BaB and I notice my one class gets no progression, but my second class went up by one to a +3, so my BaB now becomes +3. I do NOT get it if my second class goes up, but the result is still equal to or less than my current +2.
Lawkeeper 06-17-07, 04:50 AM	Been reading several threads and to be honest, I am starting to get a headache trying to follow some of the convoluted explanations for how the progressions work This is how I understand it myself ,and please correct me if I am wrong. Basically, if my gestalt goes up a level, I would check both class bonus progressions and only add to its numbers if the ones shown are higher. For example, I have a +2 BaB and I notice my one class gets no progression, but my second class went up by one to a +3, so my BaB now becomes +3. I do NOT get it if my second class goes up, but the result is still equal to or less than my current +2. Hum, I'm not sure I correctly understood what you said, but what I understood seems wrong in the last sentence : you don't look at your current BAB, only on the progression of the classes you just took - and there, you take the best of each. So, to take an example, if you are a wizard3//fighter3, you have a BAB of +3, and take one level of wizard and one level of rogue on your fourth level, your wizard's BAB would go from +1 to +2, while your rogue's BAB is +0 ; the best progression is your wizard's, which goes by +1 - your BAB will then be +4. For base saves and BAB, the best, simplest solution is to adopt the partial progression from the UA (which sadly is not in the srd).
BillTheManiac 06-17-07, 11:07 AM	Been reading several threads and to be honest, I am starting to get a headache trying to follow some of the convoluted explanations for how the progressions work This is how I understand it myself ,and please correct me if I am wrong. Basically, if my gestalt goes up a level, I would check both class bonus progressions and only add to its numbers if the ones shown are higher. For example, I have a +2 BaB and I notice my one class gets no progression, but my second class went up by one to a +3, so my BaB now becomes +3. I do NOT get it if my second class goes up, but the result is still equal to or less than my current +2. Sorry. That's a little too broken. Fighter 1/Wizard 19//Sorcerer 20 Y=BAB advance on this side. N=No BAB advance on this side. Y//N N//Y Y//N N//Y Y//N N//Y Y//N N//Y Y//N N//Y Y//N N//Y Y//N N//Y Y//N N//Y Y//N N//Y Y//N N//Y +20 BAB=BAD!!!!! Instead, use fractional BAB and saves. Fractional BAB and saves - Because it's not crazy to have a game system with sanity.
wizardguy2003 06-17-07, 12:05 PM	Are we saying that if I check for the best progression and I find that my one class doesn't change, but based on the progression chart of my other class, they have gone from a +0 to a +1 so I get a +1 to my BAB even if my BAB is already a +1 or higher? That seems a little ridiculous.
Lawkeeper 06-17-07, 12:49 PM	Are we saying that if I check for the best progression and I find that my one class doesn't change, but based on the progression chart of my other class, they have gone from a +0 to a +1 so I get a +1 to my BAB even if my BAB is already a +1 or higher? That seems a little ridiculous. Yes and yes. But it's RAW. And that's why using the fractional progression is better. Or at least, less ridiculous.
wizardguy2003 06-17-07, 04:42 PM	That isn't the way I read it in UA. It is a gestalt character, in other words a merging of two classes into a third class. In my mind, not a ranger/wizard for example, but a new class of "ranger wizard". The rules say you chose the best progression if it's an overlapping ability and both if it isn't. So in that example the full progression of the ranger when it comes to BAB is still better than the wizard, regardless of the level. Otherwise your talking about multiclassing rules where they all do stack, demonstrating education and advancement in two seperate classes. The optional fractional progression seems to state it is designed for multiclassing characters, not gestalts. The real confusion I only really see is the option of choosing two different classes each level, since that is how rules seem to be worded. I personally wouldn't allow it just to save the massive headaches I can see it causing.
Lawkeeper 06-18-07, 06:24 AM	Then I bet you forgot to put your lenses.:) From the srd : In this high-powered campaign variant, characters essentially take two classes at every level, choosing the best aspects of each. Characters take two classes at every level : it doesn't say they pick two classes and follow the progression from beginning to end, they just pick two different classes at each level. They do not need to take the same classes every time, nor to always take the same combinations of classes. Now, please note it's an optional rule, and optional rules are even more subject to the sacred rule of RPGing than the default rules : if a particular rule doesn't suit the DM, then the rule is wrong. Your DM might enforce a different view (like using the fractional progressions).
wizardguy2003 06-18-07, 01:06 PM	Maybe you should wear yours too. ;) The real confusion I only really see is the option of choosing two different classes each level, since that is how rules seem to be worded. I personally wouldn't allow it just to save the massive headaches I can see it causing. Taking a gestalt of two different classes every time is of course possible, and in that case I can see how you'd basically need to use the optional fractional system to make it easier to work with. My comments envolved if you stick with your original gestalt idea.