Racial HD [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Racial HD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rustmonster
06-23-07, 09:44 PM I was thinking about giving all characters, regardless of class, a hit dice size based on their type. For example, a human, who is a humanoid, would get a d8 hitdice regardless if they are a wizard or a barbarian. It just always seemed strange to me that something like a humanoid wizard or a commoner would get less hitdice then what is normal for the type, or for that matter, that soemthing like a humanoid barbarian would get more hitdice for their type.

I know it doesn't really get that feel of the steriotype wizard being frail compared to the steriotype barbarian, but I beleive that is what Constitution is for. A frail character has low Con, a strong character whould have high Con. Does anyone think this would work well? I would like some insight.
runestar
06-24-07, 12:26 AM A mage can have a higher con score than a fighter, but since he did not receive any martial training, he would be less able to defend himself from blows. Remember that hp is fairly abstract in nature. It does not necessarily reflect your ability to soak up damage, it can also refer to your ability to deflect hits.

For example, how do you explain the ability of a fighter with 100hp being able to withstand a knife being plunged into his heart (reflected by a crit) repeatedly? (assuming each deals 10 damage on average?)

You don't. If the fighter had 10 hp, he would have been dead from the blow to his heart. But if he was tougher, it might simply have been him blocking the attack with his arm. Now, what would have been a life-threatening wound to his chest is instead a minor flesh wound on his hand. That reflects why he has only lost about 10% of his overall hp.

This means that a fighter with 10 con is still able to take more damage than a wizard with 14 con, because of the special training he has received, as should be the case.:)
highbulp
06-24-07, 12:30 AM The problem is, hit dice are not only a function of physical size. HP isn't how many blows you can take: it's your ability to avoid a physically damaging hit, to shrug off a blow, to take the hit and continue fighting--it's an abstraction. Just because a Barbarian has a d12 HD doesn't mean that they are any bigger or tougher than the d4 HD Wizard (as you said, this is what Constitution is for). But it means that the Barbarian, a trained warrior, is more able to shrug off blows, dodge strikes, or whatever than the Wizard. So it makes perfect sense that a Wizard has less HP than a Barbarian, and by extension a smaller hit die.

Furthermore, the size of the hit die is a balancing factor among the classes. You certainly don't need to make a wizard more powerful, and this will only make the spellcasters even more of a desirable class.
Rustmonster
06-24-07, 09:25 AM The problem is, hit dice are not only a function of physical size. HP isn't how many blows you can take: it's your ability to avoid a physically damaging hit, to shrug off a blow, to take the hit and continue fighting--it's an abstraction. Just because a Barbarian has a d12 HD doesn't mean that they are any bigger or tougher than the d4 HD Wizard (as you said, this is what Constitution is for). But it means that the Barbarian, a trained warrior, is more able to shrug off blows, dodge strikes, or whatever than the Wizard. So it makes perfect sense that a Wizard has less HP than a Barbarian, and by extension a smaller hit die.

Furthermore, the size of the hit die is a balancing factor among the classes. You certainly don't need to make a wizard more powerful, and this will only make the spellcasters even more of a desirable class.

I guess your right about that. Thanks.
Thomar_of_Uointer
06-24-07, 01:46 PM I was thinking about giving all characters, regardless of class, a hit dice size based on their type. For example, a human, who is a humanoid, would get a d8 hitdice regardless if they are a wizard or a barbarian. It just always seemed strange to me that something like a humanoid wizard or a commoner would get less hitdice then what is normal for the type, or for that matter, that soemthing like a humanoid barbarian would get more hitdice for their type.

I know it doesn't really get that feel of the steriotype wizard being frail compared to the steriotype barbarian, but I beleive that is what Constitution is for. A frail character has low Con, a strong character whould have high Con. Does anyone think this would work well? I would like some insight.

One solution to this that I've seen is giving PCs a "free" level in one NPC class of their choice (with commoner granting a bonus feat) appropriate for their background. I like it because it forces players to consider their character background, it makes for more survivable low-level characters, and it makes it easier to pursue many odder character builds.
Adrez Nesnsid
06-24-07, 02:16 PM Remember that hp is fairly abstract in nature. It does not necessarily reflect your ability to soak up damage, it can also refer to your ability to deflect hits.

Not necessarily. A completely paralyzed and/or unconscious character doesn't have any fewer hit points than they would otherwise.
highbulp
06-24-07, 03:23 PM Not necessarily. A completely paralyzed and/or unconscious character doesn't have any fewer hit points than they would otherwise.

He said it can also refer to the ability to deflect hits. It is an abstraction, nothing more.

If you want, you can reason that an unconscious character can't use the deflection aspect of HP, which is why they take a coup de grace--they take more HP damage because the deflection part doesn't play into it. Similarly, one character could have 50hp because he always deflects every strike, whereas another character can have 50hp because he ignores all the cuts that cover his body. It doesn't matter. Mechanically they are the same. That's what an abstraction is.
Cheza
06-24-07, 05:40 PM The problem is, hit dice are not only a function of physical size. HP isn't how many blows you can take: it's your ability to avoid a physically damaging hit, to shrug off a blow, to take the hit and continue fighting--it's an abstraction.
So why do you still have your hitpoints, when you are held by a "Hold Person" spell??? You can't move an inch. So you can't avoid a physically damaging hit. And why doesn't a character with a higher hitdice get special bonuses on concentration???

So you see, it's more complex as you might think. As a high-level fighter, you can jump from a 100ft. high building (10d6) and just carry on. So hitpoints are unrealistic and therefore shouldn't be explained that way.

Furthermore, the size of the hit die is a balancing factor among the classes. You certainly don't need to make a wizard more powerful, and this will only make the spellcasters even more of a desirable class.[/QUOTE]
That's no Problem to me. Any other race can have racial HDs and after that, they increase levels via standard character levels. So that shouldn't be a problem for humans.

I would suggest 3 levels as a human.

However you recieve the following disadvantages:

Skip the starting skillpoints of 4x (Int + ?).
These skillpoints are represented by 3 racial levels + 1 class level.

Treat normal first level characters, as if the would have gained 3 feats from their racial levels.
Therefore cross-classing either requires to "spend" 3 feats or you skip class-specials worth of 3 feats. To compensate, you do not get negative XP for cross-classing.

This should negate inbalances with cross-classes. By now - if you wish to get proficient with martial weapons and/or with any type of armor/shield, you either might spend MANY feats or use the first level as a fighter.
This houserule clarifies, why the first class level grants so many specials: Because they include the racial levels.

This is only a hint, how you might do it. You can & should add other changes. (increase the HD cap for spells)
highbulp
06-24-07, 06:01 PM So why do you still have your hitpoints, when you are held by a "Hold Person" spell??? You can't move an inch. So you can't avoid a physically damaging hit. And why doesn't a character with a higher hitdice get special bonuses on concentration???

So you see, it's more complex as you might think. As a high-level fighter, you can jump from a 100ft. high building (10d6) and just carry on. So hitpoints are unrealistic and therefore shouldn't be explained that way.

I'm sorry if I was unclear, but that's my entire point. HP represent all of those things and none of those things at the same time. It is a total abstraction. It represents anything that anyone wants it to represent at any time. It's just a game mechanic. It has no real parallel.

Thus my initial argument that changing how much HP the classes have because "it is more realistic" is a flawed argument, which I stated and was accepted. End of thread.
Cheza
06-24-07, 06:41 PM I'm sorry if I was unclear, but that's my entire point. HP represent all of those things and none of those things at the same time. It is a total abstraction. It represents anything that anyone wants it to represent at any time. It's just a game mechanic. It has no real parallel.

Thus my initial argument that changing how much HP the classes have because "it is more realistic" is a flawed argument, which I stated and was accepted. End of thread.

Let's remember:
HP isn't how many blows you can take: it's your ability to avoid a physically damaging hit, to shrug off a blow, to take the hit and continue fighting--it's an abstraction.

So you started adding things to the "it isn't" list and afterwards you began a "it is" list. So after all, you decribed it with several examples of realistic "might be". And your "it's an abstraction" just means, that it is a sum of all things you mentioned.

Just because a Barbarian has a d12 HD doesn't mean that they are any bigger or tougher than the d4 HD Wizard (as you said, this is what Constitution is for). But it means that the Barbarian, a trained warrior, is more able to shrug off blows, dodge strikes, or whatever than the Wizard.
I don't think, this was meant to make sure that HPs aren't an simplification of real-life.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rustmonster 06-23-07, 09:44 PM	I was thinking about giving all characters, regardless of class, a hit dice size based on their type. For example, a human, who is a humanoid, would get a d8 hitdice regardless if they are a wizard or a barbarian. It just always seemed strange to me that something like a humanoid wizard or a commoner would get less hitdice then what is normal for the type, or for that matter, that soemthing like a humanoid barbarian would get more hitdice for their type. I know it doesn't really get that feel of the steriotype wizard being frail compared to the steriotype barbarian, but I beleive that is what Constitution is for. A frail character has low Con, a strong character whould have high Con. Does anyone think this would work well? I would like some insight.
runestar 06-24-07, 12:26 AM	A mage can have a higher con score than a fighter, but since he did not receive any martial training, he would be less able to defend himself from blows. Remember that hp is fairly abstract in nature. It does not necessarily reflect your ability to soak up damage, it can also refer to your ability to deflect hits. For example, how do you explain the ability of a fighter with 100hp being able to withstand a knife being plunged into his heart (reflected by a crit) repeatedly? (assuming each deals 10 damage on average?) You don't. If the fighter had 10 hp, he would have been dead from the blow to his heart. But if he was tougher, it might simply have been him blocking the attack with his arm. Now, what would have been a life-threatening wound to his chest is instead a minor flesh wound on his hand. That reflects why he has only lost about 10% of his overall hp. This means that a fighter with 10 con is still able to take more damage than a wizard with 14 con, because of the special training he has received, as should be the case.:)
highbulp 06-24-07, 12:30 AM	The problem is, hit dice are not only a function of physical size. HP isn't how many blows you can take: it's your ability to avoid a physically damaging hit, to shrug off a blow, to take the hit and continue fighting--it's an abstraction. Just because a Barbarian has a d12 HD doesn't mean that they are any bigger or tougher than the d4 HD Wizard (as you said, this is what Constitution is for). But it means that the Barbarian, a trained warrior, is more able to shrug off blows, dodge strikes, or whatever than the Wizard. So it makes perfect sense that a Wizard has less HP than a Barbarian, and by extension a smaller hit die. Furthermore, the size of the hit die is a balancing factor among the classes. You certainly don't need to make a wizard more powerful, and this will only make the spellcasters even more of a desirable class.
Rustmonster 06-24-07, 09:25 AM	The problem is, hit dice are not only a function of physical size. HP isn't how many blows you can take: it's your ability to avoid a physically damaging hit, to shrug off a blow, to take the hit and continue fighting--it's an abstraction. Just because a Barbarian has a d12 HD doesn't mean that they are any bigger or tougher than the d4 HD Wizard (as you said, this is what Constitution is for). But it means that the Barbarian, a trained warrior, is more able to shrug off blows, dodge strikes, or whatever than the Wizard. So it makes perfect sense that a Wizard has less HP than a Barbarian, and by extension a smaller hit die. Furthermore, the size of the hit die is a balancing factor among the classes. You certainly don't need to make a wizard more powerful, and this will only make the spellcasters even more of a desirable class. I guess your right about that. Thanks.
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-24-07, 01:46 PM	I was thinking about giving all characters, regardless of class, a hit dice size based on their type. For example, a human, who is a humanoid, would get a d8 hitdice regardless if they are a wizard or a barbarian. It just always seemed strange to me that something like a humanoid wizard or a commoner would get less hitdice then what is normal for the type, or for that matter, that soemthing like a humanoid barbarian would get more hitdice for their type. I know it doesn't really get that feel of the steriotype wizard being frail compared to the steriotype barbarian, but I beleive that is what Constitution is for. A frail character has low Con, a strong character whould have high Con. Does anyone think this would work well? I would like some insight. One solution to this that I've seen is giving PCs a "free" level in one NPC class of their choice (with commoner granting a bonus feat) appropriate for their background. I like it because it forces players to consider their character background, it makes for more survivable low-level characters, and it makes it easier to pursue many odder character builds.
Adrez Nesnsid 06-24-07, 02:16 PM	Remember that hp is fairly abstract in nature. It does not necessarily reflect your ability to soak up damage, it can also refer to your ability to deflect hits. Not necessarily. A completely paralyzed and/or unconscious character doesn't have any fewer hit points than they would otherwise.
highbulp 06-24-07, 03:23 PM	Not necessarily. A completely paralyzed and/or unconscious character doesn't have any fewer hit points than they would otherwise. He said it can also refer to the ability to deflect hits. It is an abstraction, nothing more. If you want, you can reason that an unconscious character can't use the deflection aspect of HP, which is why they take a coup de grace--they take more HP damage because the deflection part doesn't play into it. Similarly, one character could have 50hp because he always deflects every strike, whereas another character can have 50hp because he ignores all the cuts that cover his body. It doesn't matter. Mechanically they are the same. That's what an abstraction is.
Cheza 06-24-07, 05:40 PM	The problem is, hit dice are not only a function of physical size. HP isn't how many blows you can take: it's your ability to avoid a physically damaging hit, to shrug off a blow, to take the hit and continue fighting--it's an abstraction. So why do you still have your hitpoints, when you are held by a "Hold Person" spell??? You can't move an inch. So you can't avoid a physically damaging hit. And why doesn't a character with a higher hitdice get special bonuses on concentration??? So you see, it's more complex as you might think. As a high-level fighter, you can jump from a 100ft. high building (10d6) and just carry on. So hitpoints are unrealistic and therefore shouldn't be explained that way. Furthermore, the size of the hit die is a balancing factor among the classes. You certainly don't need to make a wizard more powerful, and this will only make the spellcasters even more of a desirable class.[/QUOTE] That's no Problem to me. Any other race can have racial HDs and after that, they increase levels via standard character levels. So that shouldn't be a problem for humans. I would suggest 3 levels as a human. However you recieve the following disadvantages: Skip the starting skillpoints of 4x (Int + ?). These skillpoints are represented by 3 racial levels + 1 class level. Treat normal first level characters, as if the would have gained 3 feats from their racial levels. Therefore cross-classing either requires to "spend" 3 feats or you skip class-specials worth of 3 feats. To compensate, you do not get negative XP for cross-classing. This should negate inbalances with cross-classes. By now - if you wish to get proficient with martial weapons and/or with any type of armor/shield, you either might spend MANY feats or use the first level as a fighter. This houserule clarifies, why the first class level grants so many specials: Because they include the racial levels. This is only a hint, how you might do it. You can & should add other changes. (increase the HD cap for spells)
highbulp 06-24-07, 06:01 PM	So why do you still have your hitpoints, when you are held by a "Hold Person" spell??? You can't move an inch. So you can't avoid a physically damaging hit. And why doesn't a character with a higher hitdice get special bonuses on concentration??? So you see, it's more complex as you might think. As a high-level fighter, you can jump from a 100ft. high building (10d6) and just carry on. So hitpoints are unrealistic and therefore shouldn't be explained that way. I'm sorry if I was unclear, but that's my entire point. HP represent all of those things and none of those things at the same time. It is a total abstraction. It represents anything that anyone wants it to represent at any time. It's just a game mechanic. It has no real parallel. Thus my initial argument that changing how much HP the classes have because "it is more realistic" is a flawed argument, which I stated and was accepted. End of thread.
Cheza 06-24-07, 06:41 PM	I'm sorry if I was unclear, but that's my entire point. HP represent all of those things and none of those things at the same time. It is a total abstraction. It represents anything that anyone wants it to represent at any time. It's just a game mechanic. It has no real parallel. Thus my initial argument that changing how much HP the classes have because "it is more realistic" is a flawed argument, which I stated and was accepted. End of thread. Let's remember: HP isn't how many blows you can take: it's your ability to avoid a physically damaging hit, to shrug off a blow, to take the hit and continue fighting--it's an abstraction. So you started adding things to the "it isn't" list and afterwards you began a "it is" list. So after all, you decribed it with several examples of realistic "might be". And your "it's an abstraction" just means, that it is a sum of all things you mentioned. Just because a Barbarian has a d12 HD doesn't mean that they are any bigger or tougher than the d4 HD Wizard (as you said, this is what Constitution is for). But it means that the Barbarian, a trained warrior, is more able to shrug off blows, dodge strikes, or whatever than the Wizard. I don't think, this was meant to make sure that HPs aren't an simplification of real-life.