Racial Paragon Classes and Weapon Group Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Racial Paragon Classes and Weapon Group Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Goblyns Hoard
05-11-05, 10:53 AM Got a query for everyone and hoping to get an 'official' answer to this if possible (hence the post here)

IMC I'm having all characters take two levels in their racial paragon classes. The reason for this is to give each chacter all the background skills that they would have as part of their upbringing/racial heritage. It also really makes the differences between the races much more apparent I've found.

My problem is I'm also using the weapon group proficiencies as well, and I haven't found any information on how these merge.

What I've done so far is - if your racial paragon class gives you simple weapons then you get one weapon group feat. If it gives you simple and martial then you get two weapon group feats. So halflings and humans each get one extra while dwarves get two extra.

I ask that the feat chosen is appropriate to the race (i.e. that dwarves take axes/hammers) or in the case of humans the region of my world where you grew up (e.g. coastal folk taking spears as a result of the spear fishing they do as kids etc.)

These are obviously on top of the feats that the character gets as a first level character of their class.

So is there an official ruling on how these two rules variants can blend? Can anyone see any problems with my interim solution?

Cheers guys

The Hoard
Dragonblade275
05-11-05, 05:52 PM This is NOT an official answer. :D

Sorry.

However, I worked this out using the guidelines given in Unearthed Arcana.

Here are my unofficial findings:
Gnome: 1
Half-Dragon: 0
Human: 2
Tiefling: 1
Drow: 3
Dwarf: 4
Elf: 3
Half-Elf: 1
Halfling: 1
Half-Orc: 4
Orc: 4

I assigned the weapon group feats using the core and prestige classes that were listed in Unearthed Arcana as a guideline. My one rule that I used was that no class except the fighter could have 5 weapon group feats. The best any other class could get was 4. But, it's been a long time since I went through and figured up these and looking at them now, I might revise them.

The revision I think I'd make, now, is that only fighters and core classes can get 4 or more weapon group feats. Prestige classes, racial paragons, etc... could only get a max of three. So, with that in mind, I'd likely subtract one from all the racial paragons listed above (with a minimum of zero weapon group feats).

Here are my REVISED unofficial findings:
Gnome: 0
Half-Dragon: 0
Human: 1
Tiefling: 0
Drow: 2
Dwarf: 3
Elf: 2
Half-Elf: 0
Halfling: 0
Half-Orc: 3
Orc: 3

Please, keep in mind that certain racial paragons should get bonus weapon group feats in addition to those listed IF they meet the requirements. An orc, for example, that was proficient in Weapon Group (Axes) would get Weapon Group (Double Axes) for free.

Also, Weapon Group (Basic Weapons) is a pre-requisite for all other weapon groups in my house-rules.

I know this isn't official, but I hope it helps. :cool:
Goblyns Hoard
05-12-05, 03:24 AM Cheers for the thoughts and I see where you're going, but I think that may give some balance issues given that the characters will also get the weapon group feats of their core class. A dwarven or orc fighter will be proficient with practically everything while a half-elf fighter would be more limited. It probably reflects the warlike cultural differences fairly well, and isn't exactly a power-up relative to the standard dwarf paragon, but I would say the half-elf should be the more versatile in terms of weapon choice - using whatever's to hand and with mixed cultural references.

I hadn't thought of making Basic Weapons a pre-req for all, but if I remember right isn't it all classes are given basic weapons anyway - possible exception on wizards.

As to officialness not a prob - just hoping that some of the designers might have thought about the issue before now and come up with what they thought.
Dragonblade275
05-12-05, 07:34 PM Thanks. :cool:

the one thing that I've been thinking about is whether or not Weapon Group Proficiencies should stack when multiclassing.

In other words, should a dwarf fighter who multiclasses as a drarven paragon gain all those extra weapon group feats? Now, the other side of the coin... What about a dwarf wizard who multiclasses as a dwarven paragon?

Where I'm going is that though it hasn't come up, yet, in my home game... it could come up.

Right now, I see two solutions.

1. The first is just to allow the weapon group feats from all classes to stack. dwarf fighter/paragon = 5+3 = 8 (using the revised numbers from above).

2. The second is not to allow them to stack, but allowing characters to gain weapon group feats until they are at the minimum number of them for the class with the most weapon group feat slots. dwarf fighter/paragon = 5. dwarf wizard/paragon = 1+3 = 4.

The problem with solution 1 is that doing it that way will likely bring up the question of whether or not armor proficiencies can be 'swapped out' when multiclassing. Solution two doesn't have this problem as a character would only have the best of their class's armor feats.

Just some food for thought... :cool:
Jaerom Darkwind
05-13-05, 03:47 AM This isn't really a response to your question, but may I suggest that if you're starting your character from level 1 with racial paragons, that you use my revisions (found in my sig). The UA versions have serious balance issues at very low levels (for example, the fact that Human 1 is basically an empty level, since its only ability doesn't apply until you enter another class).
Goblyns Hoard
05-13-05, 11:53 AM Dragonblade - that was exactly the issue - the stacking of racial and class feats... still not sure which way to jump, but I still like my thought of just adding 1 or two for the racial class to supplement the core class ones.... hmmmm... still needs more thought. ANd think about the fighter that then takes a level in barbarian/paladin/ranger - weapon feats all over the place that IMO mess up the whole idea of the weapon group feats in the first place (limiting versatility but providing a bit more character)

Jaerom - I'll take a look at those but we're actually starting at 5th level so it shouldn't be such an issue. And for those classes that have +1 spell casting I'm ruling they can be applied in any order - i.e. if you take the human levels first you then get the +1 casting level in whatver class you take after. Seeing as I'm imposing these 2 racial levels I figured that was only fair and stops any casters falling behind the curve.
Jaerom Darkwind
05-13-05, 02:07 PM Jaerom - I'll take a look at those but we're actually starting at 5th level so it shouldn't be such an issue. And for those classes that have +1 spell casting I'm ruling they can be applied in any order - i.e. if you take the human levels first you then get the +1 casting level in whatver class you take after. Seeing as I'm imposing these 2 racial levels I figured that was only fair and stops any casters falling behind the curve.In that case, definitely look at mine.
Dragonblade275
05-13-05, 06:44 PM This isn't really a response to your question, but may I suggest that if you're starting your character from level 1 with racial paragons, that you use my revisions (found in my sig). The UA versions have serious balance issues at very low levels (for example, the fact that Human 1 is basically an empty level, since its only ability doesn't apply until you enter another class).Thanks, Jaerom.

The idea of starting at first level as a racial paragon is pretty hypothetical from my standpoint. I don't believe that it will ever happen in my group. Only NPC's are likely to take levels in a racial paragon class. But, thank you for your suggestions and I plan to take a look at your revisions...
Dragonblade275
05-13-05, 06:49 PM Dragonblade - that was exactly the issue - the stacking of racial and class feats... still not sure which way to jump, but I still like my thought of just adding 1 or two for the racial class to supplement the core class ones.... hmmmm... still needs more thought. ANd think about the fighter that then takes a level in barbarian/paladin/ranger - weapon feats all over the place that IMO mess up the whole idea of the weapon group feats in the first place (limiting versatility but providing a bit more character)Right now, we're experimenting with letting characters trade out weapon group feats for any other feat in the Player's Handbook. It's working OK, so far. And the issue of multiclassing and what to do with additional weapon groups hasn't come up. If it does, I'll likely rule that a character only gets additional wepon groups if the new class would have more than the original class (or the class with the most WGF's if multi-classed already).
Yabanjin
05-28-05, 12:17 AM If you're looking for answers, this only a partial response - but it might spark some ideas...

One of my players wanted a human paragon/wiz. We're also using weapon groups. As a wiz. he got Basic WPs. And then when he asked about the additional 'any one marital weapon of choice' I decided that any single weapon would be fine. Any weapon exotic or regular - whatever - even though he might not meet the requisites. This demonstrates/supports the variable nature of the human paragon.

Is it unbalanced? Perhaps, but I also required corresponding storyline that justified it, which would've potentially added a bit of spice for me to embellish a few extra allies and enemies.

Having said all of that, he settled on rapier. (lucky for me perhaps!)
Note: elvish quickblades are unknown (currently) in this realm.

Yes, had I just given him a free martial weapon group feat, he could've chosen the 'light blades' group, and while the generalness of the weapon group as a whole might seem to point towards the Paragon class, there's something to the 'intent' of the class that draws me to conclude that a talented human (such as a paragon) could learn to use any bloody weapon she/he wants!

In our campaign, wizards are of an elite class and are required to wear rapiers, as nobles do - though most of them can't use blades, this character can.

Ultimately, it worked out quite well and has been working for months.... The PC's a rather frail wizard type that has surprised several foes with unexpected martial prowess....
s4dfish
06-04-05, 12:19 PM Thanks. :cool:

the one thing that I've been thinking about is whether or not Weapon Group Proficiencies should stack when multiclassing.

...

1. The first is just to allow the weapon group feats from all classes to stack. dwarf fighter/paragon = 5+3 = 8 (using the revised numbers from above).

...I would use your first suggestion, with a slight modification. As opposed to allowing the second class to grant the full number of weapon group proficiencies, simply grant half (excluding basic weapons) rounded down. If the Character originally possess two or fewer weapon groups (again, excluding basic weapons) and the new class originally grants three or more groups, add one to that number. If the character possess 6 or more weapon groups, subtract one from the number gained by multi-classing before dividing. If a character does not have proficiency in basic weapons (a wizard for instance), that class gains basic weapon proficiency for free (provided of course that the second class grants basic weapon proficiency). For the druid or sorcerer if the character originally has neither of the groups they offer and fewer than six proficiencies, or has two or fewer groups, the character may choose one of the offered groups, otherwise they gain no benefit. Any character multi-classing into the Monk class, may select monk weapons if they do not already possess it. Any character multi-classing into the wizard class with two or fewer proficiencies may select crossbows if they do not already possess it.

So it breaks down as such:
Character possesses proficiency in two or fewer groups
Barbarian 2
Bard 1
Cleric 1
Druid either druid weapons or spears
Fighter 3
Monk monk weapons
Paladin 2
Ranger 2
Rogue 1
Sorcerer either spears or crossbows
Wizard crossbows

Character possesses proficiency in three to five groups
Barbarian 1
Bard 1
Cleric 1
Druid either druid weapons or spears (if character posses neither)
Fighter 2
Monk monk weapons
Paladin 1
Ranger 1
Rogue 1
Sorcerer either spears or crossbows (if character possess neither)
Wizard 0

Character possesses proficiency in six or more groups
Barbarian 1
Bard 0
Cleric 0
Druid 0
Fighter 1
Monk monk weapons
Paladin 1
Ranger 1
Rogue 0
Sorcerer 0
Wizard 0
I think this should afford some additional proficiency, but avoid any character being proficient will everything under the sun via multiclassing.

Edit:
I've calculated Jaerom Darkwind's racial paragons from his lengthy, wonderful post (see his sig). I differed from Dragonblade275 in allowing races whose favored class is fighter to retain B+4 proficiencies.

First number is what you get for starting in the class, second is if you multi-class in with fewer than three proficiencies, third is between three and five, last if six or more. B indicates Basic Weapons.
Human B+2 1 0 0
Dwarf B+4 3 2 1
Elf B+2 1 0 0
Gnome B+1 0 0 0
Half-Elf B+1 0 0 0
Half-Orc B+3 2 1 1
Halfling B+1 0 0 0
Aasimar B+3 2 1 1
Air Gensai B+3 2 1 1
Earth Gensai B+4 3 2 1
Fire Gensai B+1 0 0 0
Water Gensai B+2 1 0 0
Tiefling B+1 0 0 0
Drow B+2 1 0 0
Half-Dragon B+1 0 0 0
Hobgoblin B+4 3 2 1
Orc B+3 2 1 1

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Goblyns Hoard 05-11-05, 10:53 AM	Got a query for everyone and hoping to get an 'official' answer to this if possible (hence the post here) IMC I'm having all characters take two levels in their racial paragon classes. The reason for this is to give each chacter all the background skills that they would have as part of their upbringing/racial heritage. It also really makes the differences between the races much more apparent I've found. My problem is I'm also using the weapon group proficiencies as well, and I haven't found any information on how these merge. What I've done so far is - if your racial paragon class gives you simple weapons then you get one weapon group feat. If it gives you simple and martial then you get two weapon group feats. So halflings and humans each get one extra while dwarves get two extra. I ask that the feat chosen is appropriate to the race (i.e. that dwarves take axes/hammers) or in the case of humans the region of my world where you grew up (e.g. coastal folk taking spears as a result of the spear fishing they do as kids etc.) These are obviously on top of the feats that the character gets as a first level character of their class. So is there an official ruling on how these two rules variants can blend? Can anyone see any problems with my interim solution? Cheers guys The Hoard
Dragonblade275 05-11-05, 05:52 PM	This is NOT an official answer. :D Sorry. However, I worked this out using the guidelines given in Unearthed Arcana. Here are my unofficial findings: Gnome: 1 Half-Dragon: 0 Human: 2 Tiefling: 1 Drow: 3 Dwarf: 4 Elf: 3 Half-Elf: 1 Halfling: 1 Half-Orc: 4 Orc: 4 I assigned the weapon group feats using the core and prestige classes that were listed in Unearthed Arcana as a guideline. My one rule that I used was that no class except the fighter could have 5 weapon group feats. The best any other class could get was 4. But, it's been a long time since I went through and figured up these and looking at them now, I might revise them. The revision I think I'd make, now, is that only fighters and core classes can get 4 or more weapon group feats. Prestige classes, racial paragons, etc... could only get a max of three. So, with that in mind, I'd likely subtract one from all the racial paragons listed above (with a minimum of zero weapon group feats). Here are my REVISED unofficial findings: Gnome: 0 Half-Dragon: 0 Human: 1 Tiefling: 0 Drow: 2 Dwarf: 3 Elf: 2 Half-Elf: 0 Halfling: 0 Half-Orc: 3 Orc: 3 Please, keep in mind that certain racial paragons should get bonus weapon group feats in addition to those listed IF they meet the requirements. An orc, for example, that was proficient in Weapon Group (Axes) would get Weapon Group (Double Axes) for free. Also, Weapon Group (Basic Weapons) is a pre-requisite for all other weapon groups in my house-rules. I know this isn't official, but I hope it helps. :cool:
Goblyns Hoard 05-12-05, 03:24 AM	Cheers for the thoughts and I see where you're going, but I think that may give some balance issues given that the characters will also get the weapon group feats of their core class. A dwarven or orc fighter will be proficient with practically everything while a half-elf fighter would be more limited. It probably reflects the warlike cultural differences fairly well, and isn't exactly a power-up relative to the standard dwarf paragon, but I would say the half-elf should be the more versatile in terms of weapon choice - using whatever's to hand and with mixed cultural references. I hadn't thought of making Basic Weapons a pre-req for all, but if I remember right isn't it all classes are given basic weapons anyway - possible exception on wizards. As to officialness not a prob - just hoping that some of the designers might have thought about the issue before now and come up with what they thought.
Dragonblade275 05-12-05, 07:34 PM	Thanks. :cool: the one thing that I've been thinking about is whether or not Weapon Group Proficiencies should stack when multiclassing. In other words, should a dwarf fighter who multiclasses as a drarven paragon gain all those extra weapon group feats? Now, the other side of the coin... What about a dwarf wizard who multiclasses as a dwarven paragon? Where I'm going is that though it hasn't come up, yet, in my home game... it could come up. Right now, I see two solutions. 1. The first is just to allow the weapon group feats from all classes to stack. dwarf fighter/paragon = 5+3 = 8 (using the revised numbers from above). 2. The second is not to allow them to stack, but allowing characters to gain weapon group feats until they are at the minimum number of them for the class with the most weapon group feat slots. dwarf fighter/paragon = 5. dwarf wizard/paragon = 1+3 = 4. The problem with solution 1 is that doing it that way will likely bring up the question of whether or not armor proficiencies can be 'swapped out' when multiclassing. Solution two doesn't have this problem as a character would only have the best of their class's armor feats. Just some food for thought... :cool:
Jaerom Darkwind 05-13-05, 03:47 AM	This isn't really a response to your question, but may I suggest that if you're starting your character from level 1 with racial paragons, that you use my revisions (found in my sig). The UA versions have serious balance issues at very low levels (for example, the fact that Human 1 is basically an empty level, since its only ability doesn't apply until you enter another class).
Goblyns Hoard 05-13-05, 11:53 AM	Dragonblade - that was exactly the issue - the stacking of racial and class feats... still not sure which way to jump, but I still like my thought of just adding 1 or two for the racial class to supplement the core class ones.... hmmmm... still needs more thought. ANd think about the fighter that then takes a level in barbarian/paladin/ranger - weapon feats all over the place that IMO mess up the whole idea of the weapon group feats in the first place (limiting versatility but providing a bit more character) Jaerom - I'll take a look at those but we're actually starting at 5th level so it shouldn't be such an issue. And for those classes that have +1 spell casting I'm ruling they can be applied in any order - i.e. if you take the human levels first you then get the +1 casting level in whatver class you take after. Seeing as I'm imposing these 2 racial levels I figured that was only fair and stops any casters falling behind the curve.
Jaerom Darkwind 05-13-05, 02:07 PM	Jaerom - I'll take a look at those but we're actually starting at 5th level so it shouldn't be such an issue. And for those classes that have +1 spell casting I'm ruling they can be applied in any order - i.e. if you take the human levels first you then get the +1 casting level in whatver class you take after. Seeing as I'm imposing these 2 racial levels I figured that was only fair and stops any casters falling behind the curve.In that case, definitely look at mine.
Dragonblade275 05-13-05, 06:44 PM	This isn't really a response to your question, but may I suggest that if you're starting your character from level 1 with racial paragons, that you use my revisions (found in my sig). The UA versions have serious balance issues at very low levels (for example, the fact that Human 1 is basically an empty level, since its only ability doesn't apply until you enter another class).Thanks, Jaerom. The idea of starting at first level as a racial paragon is pretty hypothetical from my standpoint. I don't believe that it will ever happen in my group. Only NPC's are likely to take levels in a racial paragon class. But, thank you for your suggestions and I plan to take a look at your revisions...
Dragonblade275 05-13-05, 06:49 PM	Dragonblade - that was exactly the issue - the stacking of racial and class feats... still not sure which way to jump, but I still like my thought of just adding 1 or two for the racial class to supplement the core class ones.... hmmmm... still needs more thought. ANd think about the fighter that then takes a level in barbarian/paladin/ranger - weapon feats all over the place that IMO mess up the whole idea of the weapon group feats in the first place (limiting versatility but providing a bit more character)Right now, we're experimenting with letting characters trade out weapon group feats for any other feat in the Player's Handbook. It's working OK, so far. And the issue of multiclassing and what to do with additional weapon groups hasn't come up. If it does, I'll likely rule that a character only gets additional wepon groups if the new class would have more than the original class (or the class with the most WGF's if multi-classed already).
Yabanjin 05-28-05, 12:17 AM	If you're looking for answers, this only a partial response - but it might spark some ideas... One of my players wanted a human paragon/wiz. We're also using weapon groups. As a wiz. he got Basic WPs. And then when he asked about the additional 'any one marital weapon of choice' I decided that any single weapon would be fine. Any weapon exotic or regular - whatever - even though he might not meet the requisites. This demonstrates/supports the variable nature of the human paragon. Is it unbalanced? Perhaps, but I also required corresponding storyline that justified it, which would've potentially added a bit of spice for me to embellish a few extra allies and enemies. Having said all of that, he settled on rapier. (lucky for me perhaps!) Note: elvish quickblades are unknown (currently) in this realm. Yes, had I just given him a free martial weapon group feat, he could've chosen the 'light blades' group, and while the generalness of the weapon group as a whole might seem to point towards the Paragon class, there's something to the 'intent' of the class that draws me to conclude that a talented human (such as a paragon) could learn to use any bloody weapon she/he wants! In our campaign, wizards are of an elite class and are required to wear rapiers, as nobles do - though most of them can't use blades, this character can. Ultimately, it worked out quite well and has been working for months.... The PC's a rather frail wizard type that has surprised several foes with unexpected martial prowess....
s4dfish 06-04-05, 12:19 PM	Thanks. :cool: the one thing that I've been thinking about is whether or not Weapon Group Proficiencies should stack when multiclassing. ... 1. The first is just to allow the weapon group feats from all classes to stack. dwarf fighter/paragon = 5+3 = 8 (using the revised numbers from above). ...I would use your first suggestion, with a slight modification. As opposed to allowing the second class to grant the full number of weapon group proficiencies, simply grant half (excluding basic weapons) rounded down. If the Character originally possess two or fewer weapon groups (again, excluding basic weapons) and the new class originally grants three or more groups, add one to that number. If the character possess 6 or more weapon groups, subtract one from the number gained by multi-classing before dividing. If a character does not have proficiency in basic weapons (a wizard for instance), that class gains basic weapon proficiency for free (provided of course that the second class grants basic weapon proficiency). For the druid or sorcerer if the character originally has neither of the groups they offer and fewer than six proficiencies, or has two or fewer groups, the character may choose one of the offered groups, otherwise they gain no benefit. Any character multi-classing into the Monk class, may select monk weapons if they do not already possess it. Any character multi-classing into the wizard class with two or fewer proficiencies may select crossbows if they do not already possess it. So it breaks down as such: Character possesses proficiency in two or fewer groups Barbarian 2 Bard 1 Cleric 1 Druid either druid weapons or spears Fighter 3 Monk monk weapons Paladin 2 Ranger 2 Rogue 1 Sorcerer either spears or crossbows Wizard crossbows Character possesses proficiency in three to five groups Barbarian 1 Bard 1 Cleric 1 Druid either druid weapons or spears (if character posses neither) Fighter 2 Monk monk weapons Paladin 1 Ranger 1 Rogue 1 Sorcerer either spears or crossbows (if character possess neither) Wizard 0 Character possesses proficiency in six or more groups Barbarian 1 Bard 0 Cleric 0 Druid 0 Fighter 1 Monk monk weapons Paladin 1 Ranger 1 Rogue 0 Sorcerer 0 Wizard 0 I think this should afford some additional proficiency, but avoid any character being proficient will everything under the sun via multiclassing. Edit: I've calculated Jaerom Darkwind's racial paragons from his lengthy, wonderful post (see his sig). I differed from Dragonblade275 in allowing races whose favored class is fighter to retain B+4 proficiencies. First number is what you get for starting in the class, second is if you multi-class in with fewer than three proficiencies, third is between three and five, last if six or more. B indicates Basic Weapons. Human B+2 1 0 0 Dwarf B+4 3 2 1 Elf B+2 1 0 0 Gnome B+1 0 0 0 Half-Elf B+1 0 0 0 Half-Orc B+3 2 1 1 Halfling B+1 0 0 0 Aasimar B+3 2 1 1 Air Gensai B+3 2 1 1 Earth Gensai B+4 3 2 1 Fire Gensai B+1 0 0 0 Water Gensai B+2 1 0 0 Tiefling B+1 0 0 0 Drow B+2 1 0 0 Half-Dragon B+1 0 0 0 Hobgoblin B+4 3 2 1 Orc B+3 2 1 1