Post/Author/DateTime	Post
starfire311 05-07-07, 10:07 AM	I really dilike the mechanics of losing a level from being raised/rezzed(R/R). I also seek to make it a little less harsh, being brought back and all. How about this for a houserule If you are R/R you lose 250xp per level, if this brings you below the xp needed for yuor current level, then you get a negative level that cannot be removed until you gain enough xp for your current level. Ex. 2nd level character with 1100xp dies and gets R/R he loses 2 x 250xp =500xp, and now has 600xp, he gains a negative level until he reaches 1000xp. what do you guys think, and does anyone else have their own rules?
RobbyPants 05-07-07, 11:09 AM	It could work. I don't feel it's too broken or that it loses the inherent flavor.
Wiz_Eldrick 05-07-07, 05:29 PM	I'm with you (in part, at least) on the general complaint. We get to play infrequently (once every two weeks, if all goes according to plan, and we have two ongoing campaigns) enough that we don't level all that often. For that reason, it's a pretty huge deal to lose XP.... "There goes the last 9 months of advancement... sigh". On the other hand, death SHOULD absolutely have an impact. I don't have the XP rewards chart(s) in front of me, so hopefully this isn't a stupid question: Does your system "properly" scale with level? I know you're decreasing the pain, but I wonder: Is the 250xp/level just as easy/difficult to get back at 5th as it is at 10th, and so on? Or would it slowly get easier as you go up in level? If so, I'd suggest finding something that accomplishes what you are after, while keeping to an even overall effect through all the levels.
starfire311 05-07-07, 05:45 PM	I'm with you (in part, at least) on the general complaint. We get to play infrequently (once every two weeks, if all goes according to plan, and we have two ongoing campaigns) enough that we don't level all that often. For that reason, it's a pretty huge deal to lose XP.... "There goes the last 9 months of advancement... sigh". yeah this is a big deal for us too, and it really hurts when you get stuck not making any progress, or sometimes moving backwards. On the other hand, death SHOULD absolutely have an impact. I don't have the XP rewards chart(s) in front of me, so hopefully this isn't a stupid question: Does your system "properly" scale with level? I know you're decreasing the pain, but I wonder: Is the 250xp/level just as easy/difficult to get back at 5th as it is at 10th, and so on? Or would it slowly get easier as you go up in level? If so, I'd suggest finding something that accomplishes what you are after, while keeping to an even overall effect through all the levels. good question, according to the xp chart it takes 1000xp per level to advance, so this will scale with level so that you will always lose approx 1/4 a level, currently you lose enough xp to take you to the mid point of the previous level, so you lose about 0.5 to 1.5 levels if you get raised, this was another part I didnt like, for example if you are just about to level you get hit a lot harder than if you just levelled. so under my system it will be reduced from .5 - 1.5 levels to always being .25 levels.
toddfrazie 05-08-07, 05:54 AM	Death sucks. Agreed. Losing experience sucks ALOT. Agreed. For a while now, I have used this rule. See if you like. whenever a character dies, he/she loses 1 constitution permanently. Boom. Bottom line. No Exp loss at all. Just a slight severing of the body from the soul resulting in a permanently weaker body. This makes the reprecusions painful, but not tedious (as experience loss can be). And, in my opinion, it makes a good deal of sense. And a character who keeps dying will eventually wither to nothing, but allows 1 or two times in the Fugue plain without much of an issue.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-08-07, 09:43 PM	That's even worse. It was used in 1E/2E, but abandoned for the 3E version (which is actually less painful). In short, XP loss can be regained. Permanently lost Con can't be - and essentially means that you're mechanically better off to just throw the character in the trash and start a new one who isn't permanently handicapped. Andy Collins has a different take on things, one which I've adopted: If you die, you have a permanent negative level (which doesn't cause actual level loss) until the next time you gain a level, at which time it goes away (harmlessly). So you die at level 9 and are raised. Your XP doesn't change, and accumulates normally until you hit level 10. Until you hit level 10, you've got a negative level (with all of the usual penalties). This makes it a setback, but it's one that you fully recover from and it doesn't create all of the hassles that actual level loss does.
toddfrazie 05-08-07, 10:32 PM	hmmm... I like that one. But I guess I really hate ressurection. It makes people too immortal ;) So the 1 con damage is a nice way to make players afraid of death. I also use the Fugue plain idea that, once dead for a year and a day, you cannot be ressurected at all. Your soul is either devoured by the soul eating wall of ooze or you are taken by a god and become an outsider. Adds to the fun of it, that is for sure. Death sucks... but thats a good thing.
Lalkin 05-08-07, 10:49 PM	you do know that Raise Dead (the one most people will be raised by in my experience) already has a time limit of raising people. 1 day/ caster level I believe. So having that year and a day thing doesn't matter too much. =)
toddfrazie 05-08-07, 11:16 PM	yeah, I like that one. It's the true ressurections that bug me. As a matter of fact,in one adventure I'm running, the fugue plane is completely overrun with demons and a soul there for longer than 10 minutes has only a 20% chance of a succesful ressurection:D My players fear death, lol Of course this has only been in effect for a while and will hopefully end soon. It's good for a campaign that has 8 or more near epic level heroes running about. I dare you to run a campaign of such magnitude. (I regret it X1,000/hour spent preparing)
Wiz_Eldrick 05-11-07, 09:06 PM	Andy Collins has a different take on things, one which I've adopted: If you die, you have a permanent negative level (which doesn't cause actual level loss) until the next time you gain a level, at which time it goes away (harmlessly). I like this idea too... so much I think I might yet adopt it. If I ever build up my ultimate house rules set, I'd like to have some extra rules around death and coming back to put the fear back in it. Some things I'm toying with are: - A flat 1% chance that any death is FINAL. A bit heavy-handed, but it also puts the fear back in death (without much chance of anything actually happening). - A chance that when you come back, things don't necessarily work perfectly. Maybe you come back "wrong", or perhaps something unpleasant follows you. The likelihood of problem resurrections would go down the higher the level of the resurrection spell used.
unundindur 05-11-07, 09:34 PM	I say this is purely a matter of style. If you want a Chutulu-like game you liekly want a very severe death-penalty. If you on the other hand follow the DnD progression you likely want epic heroes who fight gradually harder adversaries with difficulty, but not very "severe" difficulty. What i wanted to point out is that DnD have gradually gone away from all sorts of permanent (as in completely irreversible) baleful effects, which too me seems as part of making DnD more friendly to the masses. I personally like both types of play, but it varies with each campaign I play. If i play in a low-magic "dark-age" style campaign I would also prefer death to be final, or raise dead to be a very special event. If I play in the usual 4 heroes face heroic monsters and rescue all things good; I would prefer death to be a minor issue, simply because so many of the enemies have extremely deadly powers, and death is as such inevitable nless you powergame to degrees I don't like :) In my ideal world though, everything would be harsh, thoug as a player I hate permanent misshaps in my concepts, so I think I would do with a RP-penalty such as a quest to return from fuge to Faerun og for the rest of the group to find the magic "white crystal of Asauza" (which alloes a single use of true ressurection). The real problem comes when players get the raise spells and can pay the cost in a world it doesn't fit.
TheGreenGriffon 05-11-07, 10:12 PM	If you don't like the level loss rule you could go by the old standby that every time a character is raised from the dead he looses one point of constitution and he can only be raised a number of times equal to his starting CON. He can regain lost points through magical items, level ability raises and wishes etc but cannot be regained through restoration spells.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-12-07, 12:56 AM	As already discussed, that just stamps a big "Do Not Resurrect" on the PCs because the player is mechanically better off to just create a new character. Another problem with "make resurrection hard" is that D&D assumes that "death happens easily", especially by the time that resurrection is possible. Which means that, rather than people taking death seriously, it's essentially telegraphing to your players that they shouldn't bother to put much effort into their characters because it's far too easily going to go to waste. So you can certainly do these things - but don't then turn around and complain that your party and story continuity has been shot all to pieces and no one bothers to roleplay much - because you're simply reaping what you've sown.
Rakor 05-13-07, 10:26 PM	I prefer the loss of con, if your players are hardcore into min/maxing and likely to be unwilling to play a character who has lost a point of con when they could throw the character away forever then it's probably not a good choice. I never like level loss because I wanted there to be a permanent mark from dying. Also I absolutely detest level loss, I almost got into a shouting match with another player because I died after already being a level behind from energy drain and I refused to continue playing the character. I would cheerfuly accept the con loss because it's not something I'd notice as much in day to day play as being two or more levels behind everyone else.
Holy_Beholder 05-13-07, 10:39 PM	If you make death more lethal, then reduce save or die stuff to save or take a horrible effect for a long time or lots of damage.
Lia Nightdemon 05-13-07, 11:20 PM	You think death sucks in a tabletop? Try it in a larp were theres no set party and the player may or may not work together and theres generally more then 4 and they are idiots to leave thier cleric fighting 5 undead alone (out of turning) I mean I should have ran but it was dark and I was being overwhelmed so I was already dead before I could get far enough back to turn around and run. ended up being chucked in the spiderweb by the undead after sitting against a tree for 20 minutes "unconious" the NPC's returned to play a monsterous spider to eat me :( Now my char owes the town's main cleric 500 gold for the res scroll she used. Which may not seem like alot as I am level 2 but I got totally hosed on the treasure and got only 1 gold all weekend. Should start charging people money for my healing espically if they are going to rush back into the heat of battle for thier daggers. Though had they not ressed her she could have ressed by her god at the cost of 5% xp (we only get 40-50 each event but you need less xp to gain a level like 100 for level 2 and 200 for 3) Though on sunday I decided not to join them in the cave and they all got turned into vampires apparently. So next month alot of the NPC's will play thier town characters and help me save them :)
Ashanti 05-14-07, 08:08 AM	I really dilike the mechanics of losing a level from being raised/rezzed(R/R). I also seek to make it a little less harsh, being brought back and all. How about this for a houserule If you are R/R you lose 250xp per level, if this brings you below the xp needed for yuor current level, then you get a negative level that cannot be removed until you gain enough xp for your current level. Ex. 2nd level character with 1100xp dies and gets R/R he loses 2 x 250xp =500xp, and now has 600xp, he gains a negative level until he reaches 1000xp. what do you guys think, and does anyone else have their own rules? We don't have raise dead in our campaign: if you die your gone. Keeps people on their toes because every battle has a slim chance of going horribly wrong.
Ashanti 05-14-07, 08:09 AM	Double post.
starfire311 05-14-07, 09:44 AM	We don't have raise dead in our campaign: if you die your gone. Keeps people on their toes because every battle has a slim chance of going horribly wrong. I have thought about doing this, but if the game was like this our current campaign of 6 players w/ 6 characters, would now consist of 6 diffrent characters than when we started, yes, each character has died at least 1 time. I just don't like the idea of having this epic story in which 6 different characters finish it than that the ones that began it. It would be like starting out with Gimli, Legolas, Gandolf, Aragorn, Boromir, Sam, Merry, Pippen, and Frodo, and they all die, and they finish the game with Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Lando, Obi Wan, Yoda, C3-P0, and R2-D2 casting the ring into the lava. Just doesn't sit well with me.
Lacyon 05-14-07, 11:16 AM	One option I like is Psionic Revivify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRevivify.htm). If the manifester can reach the deceased in a couple of rounds, the XP cost is usually much less than the lost level would be. Unlike the Revivify spell, you don't *have* to cast it within one round. You still need to cast it ASAP to minimize your losses. In the next game I run, I'm going to convert the power to a spell and leave that as the only Res magic available. Some thoughts: A) PCs will need to be careful before 9th level, as it's a 5th-level spell/power. Alternatively, you can reduce it's level (The XP cost will still prevent people from using it too frequently before then). B) If the PCs have to run away after someone dies, the dead guy is probably out of luck. C) I can reflavor the spell and make actual resurrection impossible - Revivify works by repairing the body and coaxing the lingering soul back into it. Once the soul passes on, it's too late. Until that happens, the character isn't "all dead", just "mostly dead". Given that using Revivify an hour after someone "dies" (600 rounds) costs 60,000 XP, that's quite an Epic feat. D) All those nasty "can only be restored by wish or miracle" abilities are going to be trouble and should be avoided or reworded. So in the end we have a method whereby: 1) Players should typically be able to play the same character for an entire game if they wish. Only through terrible misfortune or phenomenally misjudging an encounter should PCs become permanently killed. If they "die", Revivify lets them back into the action quickly at a fraction of the cost of similar effects. 2) Any character capable of casting Revivify will likely need serious protection - good saves, good HP, AC, miss chance, other characters blocking arrows with their bodies, etc. There should probably be two in any serious adventuring group, just in case. Therefore, consider adding Revivify to other casters' spell lists (albeit at a higher level), or have contingencies, scrolls, etc. in place. 3) In the world at large, death still happens frequently. You don't have to come up with justifications for why the king wasn't raised after the assassin struck - assassins would just be trained to knock out/incapacitate/kill the Royal Physician(s) as part of their mission, or hide the body long enough that bringing him back isn't feasible anymore. Similarly, the wealthy can't just leave provisions in their will stipulating that they be raised from the dead. The campaign world will, in many ways, be more self-consistent. So, there's some issues to work out still, but that's my plan. -Lacyon
Ashanti 05-14-07, 11:25 AM	I have thought about doing this, but if the game was like this our current campaign of 6 players w/ 6 characters, would now consist of 6 diffrent characters than when we started, yes, each character has died at least 1 time. I just don't like the idea of having this epic story in which 6 different characters finish it than that the ones that began it. It would be like starting out with Gimli, Legolas, Gandolf, Aragorn, Boromir, Sam, Merry, Pippen, and Frodo, and they all die, and they finish the game with Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Lando, Obi Wan, Yoda, C3-P0, and R2-D2 casting the ring into the lava. Just doesn't sit well with me. LOL! I do take your point about. In my present campaign the party wizard got killed (standing too near the bard searching for traps) and the player said (although he was gutted) that it makes you value your character if you know he can die and so you are less gung ho. My players are starting to work together better, too. I have been tempted with using the mechanic from KOTOR: if you get killed you go to 0 hitpoints (or -10 or whatever) and as long as someone is alive at end of the encounter (i.e. not a TPK) you get up with 1 hit point. Only when every one is dead do you die. Would make for a more heroic game, I reckon.
Patrick Draken-Korin 05-16-07, 07:54 PM	I've got my own system for a homebrew setting I'm; the amount of time available isn't dependent upon the caster, but upon the character level of the dead guy. First of all, lower than level 6, goodbye, thanks for playing, exit stage right. This does affect PC at low levels, but the real reason is to avoid the resurrecting the low level NPC to save time. Raise or resurrection of a level 5 or lower character is possible with epic magic... but who would? Note that racial HD do not count for this; a greatwyrm gold dragon with 41 racial HD can't be restored unless it has at least 6 class levels. Characters of level 6 or higher remain near their body (or the place their body was destroyed) for a time (rounds equal to their class level) as a spirit which can't act other than communicating with other spirits and moving about in a limited area around their corpse. This delay to moving on allows certain spells to be used; quick resurrection, communication, trapping, etc. Once the character leave their body, they wait on the astral plane for a time (months equal to their level) and then are subsumed by the astral plane (which is the origin and resting place of all souls and soul-material). Reincarnation and Clone each allow a subsumed soul to return, as does epic magic, but otherwise you're finished. The spells only matter for whether the subject is present (recently dead or called by another spell; imaginatively named return soul) or on the astral plane (note going to the astral plane only allows the soul to present if you can find it... good luck). The other point of importance is whether the body is present, partially present (ash counts*), or not at all available. As for penalties with death? An Xp pool equal to 200, 350 or 500 per class level which must be filled before real Xp can be acquired again. Why does the amount vary? whether the corpse is present, partially present, or not available. this Xp pool prevents the possibility of level loss, and can't be drained to make items or cast spells. *One time? They voluntarily died and were cremated to be easily smuggled into a fortress by the rogue, who had many resurrection scrolls :rolleyes:. Seriously. I even gave them RP Xp for the ceremony, what with all the over-the-top acting. It wasn't nearly enough to offset the penalty though ;). wizard: "We die that others may live." Rogue: "Temporaily" Wizard: "Right. We die temporaily, that others may live. You know, for longer"
Ashanti 05-17-07, 12:05 PM	Content deleted.
philipk 05-18-07, 05:49 PM	wizard: "We die that others may live." Rogue: "Temporaily" Wizard: "Right. We die temporaily, that others may live. You know, for longer" Can I sig this?
Patrick Draken-Korin 05-18-07, 06:40 PM	Sure.