Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GinTonic 07-03-07, 12:10 AM	The determination of ability scores has been a point of contention in D&D since its inception. Back in the day, we used to pick our race, roll 4d6 drop ones per stat, switch two stats, and then pick our class. The idea was that there was a mix of innate ability (rolling) and learned ability (switching). The problem was always balancing characters against each other. Now we have a viable alternate in the Point Buy method. Yes, it's balanced, but the characters feel sculpted, artificial, optimized. Perhaps good for squeezing out every point of damage, but not necessarily good for RP. Since the debate rages on [and for the record, I feel any method is fine as long as everyone agrees] about which method is preferable, I came up with this alternate: Random Point Buy 1) Prep as if you're doing a point buy; establish the number of points available and (optionally) choose a class 2) Roll a d6 and place one point into whatever stat you roll with 1=STR, 2=DEX, etc... until you run out of points. 3) If you are playing the DMG point buy method by which stats higher than 14 cost extra points, you may need to recover those points that land in no-man's land. Points which take stats over 18 are also in no-man's land. For example, if you play a 25 point buy, and you roll a 1 seven times, you have more points than necessary for a 14, but too few for a 15. Collect and redistribute these left over points together. 4) Do some switching or reorder the stats completely as you wish. There you go, the balance of point buy with the randomness of rolling. If you have Excel, here is some code to simulate this method: Create a new spreadsheet. Make sure macros are enabled. Rename the first worksheet as "Random Point Buy". Place the following text: In A1: Points (number of points available, DMG = 25) In A2: Minimum (stating point, DMG = 8) In A3: Straight (true if points are 1 for 1, false if high stats cost more, DMG = false) In A5: STR In A6: DEX etc... Go to Tools -> Macro -> Visual Basic Editor [Alt+F11] Create a new module by using the insert menu. Paste the code below starting with "Sub" into the new module and then save. In order to run it, go to Tools -> Macro -> Macros and select "pointbuy" (there are ways to place buttons on the worksheet to facilitate rolling) Note that the code isn't fool-proof. It'll hang if you enter an impossibly high or low point value. Remember to change the available points if you change the minimum. For example, a 25 point buy w/ 8 minimum (DMG style) is equivalent to a 37 point buy w/ 6 minimum. High scores are pretty rare because points are rounded down. In order to get those 18s, it helps (I think) to lower the minimum. I'd have to get into the statistics of it more, but I think that SAD classes would favor low mins and MAD classes would favor high mins. ----- Sub pointbuy() Dim pool As Integer: Dim min As Integer: Dim straight As Boolean Dim RndArray(6, 1) As Single Dim i As Integer: Dim x As Integer With Worksheets("Random Point Buy") pool = .Cells(1, 2) min = .Cells(2, 2) straight = .Cells(3, 2) End With If min < 3 Then MsgBox "Min must be at least 3." Exit Sub End If If min > 12 Then MsgBox "Min must be no more than 12." Exit Sub End If Randomize If straight = True Then Do x = Int(6 * Rnd()) + 1 If RndArray(x, 1) < 18 - min Then RndArray(x, 1) = RndArray(x, 1) + 1 i = i + 1 End If Loop Until i = pool Else Do i = 0 Do x = Int(6 * Rnd()) + 1 If RndArray(x, 1) < 24 - min Then RndArray(x, 1) = RndArray(x, 1) + 1 i = i + 1 End If Loop Until i = pool pool = 0 For i = 1 To 6 Select Case RndArray(i, 1) Case 23 - min RndArray(i, 1) = RndArray(i, 1) - 2 pool = pool + 2 Case 22 - min RndArray(i, 1) = RndArray(i, 1) - 1 pool = pool + 1 Case 20 - min RndArray(i, 1) = RndArray(i, 1) - 2 pool = pool + 2 Case 19 - min RndArray(i, 1) = RndArray(i, 1) - 1 pool = pool + 1 Case 17 - min RndArray(i, 1) = RndArray(i, 1) - 1 pool = pool + 1 Case 15 - min RndArray(i, 1) = RndArray(i, 1) - 1 pool = pool + 1 End Select Next i Loop Until pool = 0 End If With Worksheets("Random Point Buy") If straight = True Then For i = 1 To 6 .Cells(4 + i, 2) = RndArray(i, 1) + min Next i Else For i = 1 To 6 Select Case RndArray(i, 1) Case 24 - min .Cells(4 + i, 2) = 18 Case 21 - min .Cells(4 + i, 2) = 17 Case 18 - min .Cells(4 + i, 2) = 16 Case 16 - min .Cells(4 + i, 2) = 15 Case Else .Cells(4 + i, 2) = RndArray(i, 1) + min End Select Next i End If End With End Sub
Vaelan 07-03-07, 02:03 AM	Yes, it's balanced, but the characters feel sculpted, artificial, optimized. Perhaps good for squeezing out every point of damage, but not necessarily good for RP. I disagree, but since this is a subjective matter, that will be the extent of my arguing against this viewpoint. 4) Do some switching or reorder the stats completely as you wish. When you include this kind of mechanic, I don't see why this is any less artificial than a pure point-buy character. For the purposes of character development, I see the relationship between the numbers as much more important than the magnitude of the numbers or the magnitude of the differences between them. 2) Roll a d6 and place one point into whatever stat you roll with 1=STR, 2=DEX, etc... until you run out of points. Whereas for the mechanical aspect of the game, the specifics are more important. While I do not agree that point-buy systems limit flexibility on the roleplaying level, I do see that non-choice systems limit flexibility on the mechanical level. It often isn't enough to be faster than you are tough because there are mechanical benchmarks for being fast that, for example, stop you from taking Dodge. Your system removes one of the main incentives behind the system: choice.
ppirilla 07-03-07, 06:38 PM	When you include this kind of mechanic, I don't see why this is any less artificial than a pure point-buy character. My initial assumption is that he suggests choose two scores and swap them, leaving the other four intact. Your system removes one of the main incentives behind the system: choice. I disagree with this to some extent. I feel that the main incentive to point-buy is balance within the party. It takes away the ability for a fluke roll to lead to one character dominating the campaign. Anyways, a possible adaptation to take more advantage of the flexibility of point-buy: (using a 25-point buy as an example) roll as described until 20 points are consumed, or a score attempts to become 19, whichever comes first. At this point, the player can spend his/her remaining points as normal. The player must then accept the scores as assigned without rearranging.
Vaelan 07-04-07, 12:03 AM	My initial assumption is that he suggests choose two scores and swap them, leaving the other four intact. That isn't what he said. I disagree with this to some extent. I feel that the main incentive to point-buy is balance within the party. It takes away the ability for a fluke roll to lead to one character dominating the campaign. I didn't say that choice was the main incentive, I said it was one of the main incentives. Unless you don't believe that choice is by any means an incentive, I can't see you disagreeing with my statement.
GinTonic 07-04-07, 11:27 AM	That isn't what he said. Correct. There are probably as many stat-swapping policies as there are stat generation methods and I didn't want to get into all of that. As I stated in my intro, I would prefer swapping any two stats. Another option would be swapping any two physical stats and any two mental stats. I didn't want to rule out a total reordering, but then the method would be more appropriately called Random Elite Array. Your system removes one of the main incentives behind the system: choice. Well it certainly reduces choice. I would say it only eliminates choice if no swapping is allowed. This is alternate, if you want more control over your stats, please feel free to stay with Point Buy. This is meant to be a compromise between the two dominant methodologies, not the end-all best method.
Seldriss 07-04-07, 11:34 AM	For a long time i was a fervent defender of the rolled abilities. With the 3rd edition i decided to use the Point Buy system (32 points), but i was not satisfied with the result nor the concept. So i changed it this way : 80 points to divide between the attributes, starting from 0 18 max in a score before racial modifiers Examples : Str 12, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 14 (80pts) Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10 (80pts) Easy and simple. And curiously the result is quite the same than with the 32 pts system, and it is much faster to use, for players and npcs.
Rustmonster 07-04-07, 01:15 PM	For a long time i was a fervent defender of the rolled abilities. With the 3rd edition i decided to use the Point Buy system (32 points), but i was not satisfied with the result nor the concept. So i changed it this way : 80 points to divide between the attributes, starting from 0 18 max in a score before racial modifiers Examples : Str 12, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 14 (80pts) Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10 (80pts) Easy and simple. And curiously the result is quite the same than with the 32 pts system, and it is much faster to use, for players and npcs. Str 18, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8 (80pts) So I could do this then? And then be a barbarian? 16 Hp at level 1. 17 AC assuming studded leather. 1d12+6 damage with a greatax, averaging 12.5 damage, maxing at 18, minimum 7, as well as a +5 to attacks. And that's not even if I rage. Plus, I could be a half-orc, raiseing my damage to 1d12+7, average 13.5, max 19, minimum 8, and attack bonus of +6. Not trying to be harsh or anything, I just like numbers:D .
Seldriss 07-04-07, 01:51 PM	Str 18, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8 (80pts) So I could do this then? And then be a barbarian? Sure, why not ?
Bobson 07-04-07, 03:04 PM	For my current game, I sat down with Troll (http://www.diku.dk/hjemmesider/ansatte/torbenm/Troll/) (a dice statistics program) and came up with a hybrid between dice rolling and point buy which successfully accomplished my two goals: 1) Players can make their characters strong where they need to to be effective in the class they chose 2) Players can end up with unexpectedly good or bad stats, which they will have to work around. The system works as follows: Take Xd6. (I used 20, GMs decide based on power level for their game) Divide them up between the six stats, with no less than two in any one stat. Roll each pool. If you have less than four dice in the pool, keep all your dice and assume that every die you didn't roll was a 1 (so 3d6+1, 2d6+2). If you have four or more, keep the best four. If your total is above an 18, reroll that pool. Once all six pools have been rolled, you may swap two stats (optionally, GM can enforce a -1 penalty to each swapped stat) If the total mod is too low, or you rolled absolutely horribly in your most important stat(s) (6 1's on 6d6 happens...), the GM can allow you to reroll (GM needs to define rules for this base don game power level) It's complicated, and it involved a lot of rerolls (both for pools that ended up over 18, and for total scores which were too low), but it did meet both goals above. Two examples: The party cleric focused on his Wis and to a lesser extent on Int. He ended up with 17 in wis and 16 int. On the other hand, he also ended up with a 7 dex. Completely impossible under standard point buy (where even an 8 dex is really rare), and not at all deadly to the character concept, but certainly a flaw. He's managed to drop ropes tossed to him, jump into the way of explosions, etc. Conversely, the Knight in the party was focusing on Strength and Charisma. She ended up with a 16 str, and a 16 cha, as well as a 17 dex, and a 10 con (she also has a 5 wisdom...). Not your typical knight. So she looked at her stats and went "I'll hit people with my shield too!" and is taking TWF feats. Still a playable knight, but she's more versatile and fragile than expected, as well as rather clueless... In short, you're investing much more effort into generating stats at chargen, and ending up with interesting characters (like random rolling) built along the general lines you wanted (like point buy).
Rustmonster 07-04-07, 03:22 PM	Sure, why not ? It's 50 point buy, with a total +10 bonus. There's a reason they make higher stats cost more in point buy. Seriously, do you actually think my idea was balanced for a level 1 character in any sense of the word? And by the way, the point buy value of the two examples you gave are 38. I'm guessing you play really, REALLY high powered games, which is fine, although CR becomes wonky. I'm guessing this isn't what the OP had wanted to make.
Seldriss 07-04-07, 06:43 PM	It's 50 point buy, with a total +10 bonus. There's a reason they make higher stats cost more in point buy. Seriously, do you actually think my idea was balanced for a level 1 character in any sense of the word? And by the way, the point buy value of the two examples you gave are 38. I'm guessing you play really, REALLY high powered games, which is fine, although CR becomes wonky. I'm guessing this isn't what the OP had wanted to make. Having a 18 in three attributes is not such a big deal, it is possible to get with a dice rolling creation. Honestly, i don't really care about the characters scores. The game is much more than numbers and a character cannot be just created on scores. Sure, the barbarian of your example might be powerful physically, but he would be in real trouble in an adventure where thinking and skills are necessary. Muscle is not everything. Cemetaries are full of powerful fighters. About the total, i pointed that this is not 38 or 50 any other point buy. That's just 80 points to divide between the attributes. That's very different. About my games, well, yes, i run quite high-powered games, in a challenging world setting, but i don't think i'm hardcore. The fights are lethal, some npcs can be tough, but that's the case with many other DMs.
Rustmonster 07-04-07, 07:22 PM	Sure, the barbarian of your example might be powerful physically, but he would be in real trouble in an adventure where thinking and skills are necessary. Muscle is not everything. Cemetaries are full of powerful fighters. About the total, i pointed that this is not 38 or 50 any other point buy. That's just 80 points to divide between the attributes. That's very different. First, the barbarian I made can think. Quite well, actually. Below human average, yes, but not by much. Skills? He has bonuses that help some of his class skills, like jump, climb, swim, and ride. I'm guessing that you mean skills like diplomacy, though. He wasn't going to be good at that in the first place, he's a barbarian. Even if he had 18 Int, most skills are cross-class for him. He still gets 3 per level, good enough for listen, survival, maybe ride. Barbarians are not skill monkeys, they aren't even secondary skill monkeys. They are powerhouses. Secondly, I understand you weren't using point buy. I was just pointing out that your examples were 38 point buy. You had stated the stats were " quite the same than with the 32 pts system" which is not true. Your system just ASKS to be abused. The lowest point buy EQUIVELANT you can make with the system is 32. The max is 50. What muncking WOULDN'T pee himself with glee to see this?
Vaelan 07-05-07, 12:13 AM	This is alternate, if you want more control over your stats, please feel free to stay with Point Buy. This is meant to be a compromise between the two dominant methodologies, not the end-all best method. Yeah, I forgot about that when I made that post and was going to correct it when I got back to this thread. My apologies for making you waste your time responding to it. And curiously the result is quite the same than with the 32 pts system, and it is much faster to use, for players and npcs. It misses one key point: high ability scores being more expensive in order to balance to playing field between MAD and non-MAD characters. 80 points (MAD array): 16, 14, 14, 14, 14, 10 80 points (non-MAD array): 18, 18, 18, 10, 8, 8 32 point-buy (MAD array): 14, 14, 14, 14, 12, 12 32 point-buy (non-MAD array): 18, 14, 14, 10, 8, 8 It is my opinion that the non-MAD array is better under your system than the point-buy system while the MAD array is also better off, but not to the same degree. The goal is usually to penalize high ability scores because classes that can afford them tend to be more powerful than classes that can't.
Seldriss 07-05-07, 08:28 AM	What muncking WOULDN'T pee himself with glee to see this? I agree totally with you on this, Rustmonster. That's a big risk. But luckily, i don't have any munchkin at my table. Well, honestly i had some before, but i sent them to rehab and they're better now ;) (when i think about munchkins, Igor from Dork Tower comes to mind instantly) Although i use some house rules which give a lot of possibilities and power to players and their characters, i am also very exigent in the creation of the characters, for their background and development. And my campaign world is very immersive and intricate, so characters have to take responsabilities and forge alliances with some factions or organizations if they want to survive. So whatever their power, they need others, which promotes grouping and implication in the world. And they use this power in this direction. In short, i know the risks, but i keep things under control, and i wouldn't recommend my rules without this control.
Roog 07-06-07, 01:11 AM	If you want random point buy then you could try this: 1: Each player writes sever stat arrays on a piece of paper (created using point buy). 2: Mix all the pieces of paper together in some container. 3: Each player draws one piece of paper blindly. 4: Player uses the stats they drew to create their character. (possibly with some small modification, eg swap two stats or draw two and choose one)
Phalse_One 07-08-07, 10:31 PM	Actually Roog's method is a good idea. Maybe 4, 6 or 8 sets of ability scores, and then roll a die (d4, d6, or d8 respectively). Personally I like the point buy as is, but if you want a random, yet-balanced system, go with Roog. It also has the added advantage of giving the characters what they want. I'm sure almost any player can come up with 6 sets of scores that they could like with.
Vaelan 07-09-07, 02:18 AM	Personally I like the point buy as is, but if you want a random, yet-balanced system, go with Roog. I prefer the system that doesn't make the entire group go random unless they all want to.
Roog 07-09-07, 02:54 AM	I prefer the system that doesn't make the entire group go random unless they all want to. The idea is not to force the entire group to go random, its just that the idea only works under the right conditions: 1: All the stat blocks in the pool are desirable (to some degree). 2: The stat-blocks are sufficiently varied. I feel that this needs at least three people in the pool, or serious thought about what stat-blocks to use. If the chance of drawing your own entries is too high, then this is basicly PB with more work; but having a chance to draw your own entries motivates players to consider entries with some care.
The_Ditto 07-11-07, 02:26 PM	A method I used a long time ago was a "group pool". Again, as stated, the entire group agreed to this before hand, and everyone seemed to be happy with the results ... Only real downside: generation takes longer (ie more discussion of things and your players MUST be able to work together ... ) Have each play roll 4d6 drop the lowest 6 times. All rolls are placed into 1 large "pool". Players then discuss/agree/<whatever means they agree on> to figure out which stats go where. It helps "average out" the high rollers and the low rollers, and everyone typically ends up on even footing. Most commonly, the highest stats were "shared" out, 1 to each, then the next highest, etc. in a mutually agreeable fashion. For example ... 4 players: Anne, Bob, Chuck and Danny They all roll the dice, and the results are: 18, 17, 16, 15, 15, 15, 15, 14, 13, 12, 12, 12, 12, 11, 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 9, 9, 9, 9, 3 They all want (of course) the 18, but after some discussion, they decide Chuck will get it, because he's going to play a wizard, and they want his INT and DCs high ... to help compensate, he's also agreed to suck up the 3. they continue to discuss until everyone has 6 stats. I've seen it work well .. again, however, it really kinda requires a group that can work well together ...
Arcade 07-12-07, 11:45 AM	That's a very interesting concept- but what happens when a new player comes in, or a character needs to be rerolled? On the other hand, I can totally see using this method with an auction method as well. For instance, give everyone 200 points and then go around the table auctioning off stats. Didn't Amber have somthing like that? A method I used a long time ago was a "group pool". Again, as stated, the entire group agreed to this before hand, and everyone seemed to be happy with the results ... Only real downside: generation takes longer (ie more discussion of things and your players MUST be able to work together ... ) Have each play roll 4d6 drop the lowest 6 times. All rolls are placed into 1 large "pool". Players then discuss/agree/<whatever means they agree on> to figure out which stats go where. It helps "average out" the high rollers and the low rollers, and everyone typically ends up on even footing. Most commonly, the highest stats were "shared" out, 1 to each, then the next highest, etc. in a mutually agreeable fashion. For example ... 4 players: Anne, Bob, Chuck and Danny They all roll the dice, and the results are: 18, 17, 16, 15, 15, 15, 15, 14, 13, 12, 12, 12, 12, 11, 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 9, 9, 9, 9, 3 They all want (of course) the 18, but after some discussion, they decide Chuck will get it, because he's going to play a wizard, and they want his INT and DCs high ... to help compensate, he's also agreed to suck up the 3. they continue to discuss until everyone has 6 stats. I've seen it work well .. again, however, it really kinda requires a group that can work well together ...