Ranged weapons and Strength [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ranged weapons and Strength [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Clearly_Toughpick
08-21-07, 11:56 AM I'm fundamentally dissatisified with the way Strength affects the use of ranged weapons. At the moment, you apply your Strength modifier to damage rolls for thrown weapons, and for projectiles fired from composite bows and slings.

My problems with this are twofold:
1. The maximum distance you can send a given weapon is the same for everyone, regardless of their strength.
2. In real life, one's strength does not actually affect how hard a missile strikes, apart from at very close range.

So I'm proposing a houserule that takes the Strength element out of damage, but puts it into range...

Rule A: Damage rolls for ranged weapons are not modified by Strength.
Rule B: The furthest range for a ranged weapon is
5 increments +/- Strength modifier for thrown weapons
10 increments +/- Strength modifier for projectile weapons (but to take advantage of enhanced range with a bow, you need to use a specially strung bow, much like a composite bow, and using such a bow when you don't have the strength to imposes a penalty to your attack roll equal to the difference between your Strength modifier and the bow's effective Strength modifier).

Finally, I'd get rid of composite bows as these are a modern invention (more recent than gunpowder, handguns, cannon etc. which are absent from the game).

What do you think?

Toughpick
Holy_Beholder
08-22-07, 12:02 AM A thrown weapon could have as many increments as half your strength score, and a ranged weapon built for a strength would have as many increments as your strength score. Also the bow is a bad example, because of maximum draw. I was just thinking about this recently. Also a composite bow, judging by the picture looks like a recurve, which has been around much longer. The modern version is a compound, its what I use.
wordserpent
08-22-07, 12:54 PM Finally, I'd get rid of composite bows as these are a modern invention (more recent than gunpowder, handguns, cannon etc. which are absent from the game).

What do you think?

Toughpick

The Huns had composite bows, as did the Avars, Alans and Mongols. A composite bow is made up from two or more different types of materials, usually those pieces were glued together.

What determines how much damage an arrow does is the draw on the bow. An arrow from a bow with a 100 pound draw will impact with greater velocity and go farther than a bow with a 30 pound draw. Thus, a bow built for a strength bonus of +2 requires the archer to have a strength bonus of +2 to gain that benefit from the weapon, otherwise it's just a normal bow in someones hands.

I myself have never understood why a non-composite bow could not have the strength modifier added, especially since the English long bows were made from a single staff of yew or ash, the glue used for a composite bow wouldn't have held properly in damp, rainy Britain.

You do make a valid point about the range of bows. There are so many factors involves including the draw of the bow, the skill of the archer, the quality of the arrow, the fletching (feathers) on it, and the ability for an archer to fire indirectly at a target (fire upward and have the arrow come down as opposed to direct fire, thus imparting a greater range on the missle).

The D&D rules simplify all of this and while not realistic they offer a standard that players and DM's can use in a pinch rather than look up pages of information on bows, arrows and other ranged weapons.

I used to get all [uptight] about weaponry in D&D, I have all sorts of data on the weight and size of weapons as well as how they were used, but I left all that behind because it bogs down my game. Remember that a hobgoblin using a standard longbow gets the same benefits and penalties that a Player character does, so hopefully that sort of makes the playing field even.
Clearly_Toughpick
08-24-07, 04:11 AM Thanks guys: I've definitely learned a thing or two about bows. I think I'll stick with my proposal, but maybe add an element to reflect the fact that, generally speaking, an arrow is moving faster when it hits a target at close range than when it hits a target at long range (this would mean that characters with high Str would usually do more damage with all projectile weapons). Don't have time now, but can expand on this if you're interested. If not, then no worries.
Rhialto
08-28-07, 03:29 AM Thanks guys: I've definitely learned a thing or two about bows. I think I'll stick with my proposal, but maybe add an element to reflect the fact that, generally speaking, an arrow is moving faster when it hits a target at close range than when it hits a target at long range (this would mean that characters with high Str would usually do more damage with all projectile weapons). Don't have time now, but can expand on this if you're interested. If not, then no worries.

Actually, the velocity remains more or less constant over the useful range of a bow. By the time wind resistance etc becomes a significant factor in reducing the arrow's velocity, accuracy has long since gone to pot.

fwiw, the world record for range with bow and arrow is about 1300 yards. This makes no mention of accuracy, however. I believe tournament rules specify the arrow must land somewhere within a 45 degree arc from the archer.
theotherdraxen
09-04-07, 10:42 AM Rule A: Damage rolls for ranged weapons are not modified by Strength.
Rule B: The furthest range for a ranged weapon is
5 increments +/- Strength modifier for thrown weapons
10 increments +/- Strength modifier for projectile weapons (but to take advantage of enhanced range with a bow, you need to use a specially strung bow, much like a composite bow, and using such a bow when you don't have the strength to imposes a penalty to your attack roll equal to the difference between your Strength modifier and the bow's effective Strength modifier).
Well, you'll need to make up for that lost damage somewhere. Doing damage with a bow usually relies on making a Rapid-Shot full attack (preferably with a Splitting Bow). Getting your strength to damage with a composite bow adds up to a lot more than just a +5, since you should be making a lot of attacks with it.

I personally recommend dexterity, since it'll reduce MAD, make less muscular archers more viable to play, ect.

Not sure what you would do with Compostie bows after that, though.
Finally, I'd get rid of composite bows as these are a modern invention (more recent than gunpowder, handguns, cannon etc. which are absent from the game).
I think you're confusing a composite bow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_bow) with a compound bow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_bow).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Clearly_Toughpick 08-21-07, 11:56 AM	I'm fundamentally dissatisified with the way Strength affects the use of ranged weapons. At the moment, you apply your Strength modifier to damage rolls for thrown weapons, and for projectiles fired from composite bows and slings. My problems with this are twofold: 1. The maximum distance you can send a given weapon is the same for everyone, regardless of their strength. 2. In real life, one's strength does not actually affect how hard a missile strikes, apart from at very close range. So I'm proposing a houserule that takes the Strength element out of damage, but puts it into range... Rule A: Damage rolls for ranged weapons are not modified by Strength. Rule B: The furthest range for a ranged weapon is 5 increments +/- Strength modifier for thrown weapons 10 increments +/- Strength modifier for projectile weapons (but to take advantage of enhanced range with a bow, you need to use a specially strung bow, much like a composite bow, and using such a bow when you don't have the strength to imposes a penalty to your attack roll equal to the difference between your Strength modifier and the bow's effective Strength modifier). Finally, I'd get rid of composite bows as these are a modern invention (more recent than gunpowder, handguns, cannon etc. which are absent from the game). What do you think? Toughpick
Holy_Beholder 08-22-07, 12:02 AM	A thrown weapon could have as many increments as half your strength score, and a ranged weapon built for a strength would have as many increments as your strength score. Also the bow is a bad example, because of maximum draw. I was just thinking about this recently. Also a composite bow, judging by the picture looks like a recurve, which has been around much longer. The modern version is a compound, its what I use.
wordserpent 08-22-07, 12:54 PM	Finally, I'd get rid of composite bows as these are a modern invention (more recent than gunpowder, handguns, cannon etc. which are absent from the game). What do you think? Toughpick The Huns had composite bows, as did the Avars, Alans and Mongols. A composite bow is made up from two or more different types of materials, usually those pieces were glued together. What determines how much damage an arrow does is the draw on the bow. An arrow from a bow with a 100 pound draw will impact with greater velocity and go farther than a bow with a 30 pound draw. Thus, a bow built for a strength bonus of +2 requires the archer to have a strength bonus of +2 to gain that benefit from the weapon, otherwise it's just a normal bow in someones hands. I myself have never understood why a non-composite bow could not have the strength modifier added, especially since the English long bows were made from a single staff of yew or ash, the glue used for a composite bow wouldn't have held properly in damp, rainy Britain. You do make a valid point about the range of bows. There are so many factors involves including the draw of the bow, the skill of the archer, the quality of the arrow, the fletching (feathers) on it, and the ability for an archer to fire indirectly at a target (fire upward and have the arrow come down as opposed to direct fire, thus imparting a greater range on the missle). The D&D rules simplify all of this and while not realistic they offer a standard that players and DM's can use in a pinch rather than look up pages of information on bows, arrows and other ranged weapons. I used to get all [uptight] about weaponry in D&D, I have all sorts of data on the weight and size of weapons as well as how they were used, but I left all that behind because it bogs down my game. Remember that a hobgoblin using a standard longbow gets the same benefits and penalties that a Player character does, so hopefully that sort of makes the playing field even.
Clearly_Toughpick 08-24-07, 04:11 AM	Thanks guys: I've definitely learned a thing or two about bows. I think I'll stick with my proposal, but maybe add an element to reflect the fact that, generally speaking, an arrow is moving faster when it hits a target at close range than when it hits a target at long range (this would mean that characters with high Str would usually do more damage with all projectile weapons). Don't have time now, but can expand on this if you're interested. If not, then no worries.
Rhialto 08-28-07, 03:29 AM	Thanks guys: I've definitely learned a thing or two about bows. I think I'll stick with my proposal, but maybe add an element to reflect the fact that, generally speaking, an arrow is moving faster when it hits a target at close range than when it hits a target at long range (this would mean that characters with high Str would usually do more damage with all projectile weapons). Don't have time now, but can expand on this if you're interested. If not, then no worries. Actually, the velocity remains more or less constant over the useful range of a bow. By the time wind resistance etc becomes a significant factor in reducing the arrow's velocity, accuracy has long since gone to pot. fwiw, the world record for range with bow and arrow is about 1300 yards. This makes no mention of accuracy, however. I believe tournament rules specify the arrow must land somewhere within a 45 degree arc from the archer.
theotherdraxen 09-04-07, 10:42 AM	Rule A: Damage rolls for ranged weapons are not modified by Strength. Rule B: The furthest range for a ranged weapon is 5 increments +/- Strength modifier for thrown weapons 10 increments +/- Strength modifier for projectile weapons (but to take advantage of enhanced range with a bow, you need to use a specially strung bow, much like a composite bow, and using such a bow when you don't have the strength to imposes a penalty to your attack roll equal to the difference between your Strength modifier and the bow's effective Strength modifier). Well, you'll need to make up for that lost damage somewhere. Doing damage with a bow usually relies on making a Rapid-Shot full attack (preferably with a Splitting Bow). Getting your strength to damage with a composite bow adds up to a lot more than just a +5, since you should be making a lot of attacks with it. I personally recommend dexterity, since it'll reduce MAD, make less muscular archers more viable to play, ect. Not sure what you would do with Compostie bows after that, though. Finally, I'd get rid of composite bows as these are a modern invention (more recent than gunpowder, handguns, cannon etc. which are absent from the game). I think you're confusing a composite bow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_bow) with a compound bow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_bow).