RE: clerics and turn/rebuke undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

RE: clerics and turn/rebuke undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Patrick Draken-Korin
04-17-05, 12:24 PM this is a thread i mistakenly placed on the class forum (darn, no responses- it deals with variants).

recently i started work on an idea: why do clerics (and paladins) gain the ability to turn undead? i know it's a major ability, but why would most deities care about undead? (i know, most good deities would be opposed to undead IN GENERAL, but not THAT many would put that amount of effort into it, at least from the portfolio perspective- they just don't spend that much time working against undead, they've got other things to do. same, but reversed, for evil deities). from this point of view, turn/rebuke undead should probably be a domain power or feat based. but where would the clerics get thier replacment class feature?

my best guess would be the ability to turn outsiders of an alignment opposed to your deities- you can turn outsiders with one alignment subtype at level 1 (set), and with a second alignment subtype at level 11 (set or choice). if your deity doesn't have an extreme alignment (LG, CL, LE, CE), then you can choose a opposed alignment (if you have no opposed alignment then pick one you want). true neutral deities must specify an opposed alignment for level 1 (usually an alignment possessed by a deitty with an opposing portfolio component).

as a linking topic: the whole turn undead/cure, rebuke undead/inflict thing just goes to far in assuming that positive energy is nice (not necesarrily good, or the cure spells would have the good descriptor). positive energy is activity and growth, meaning change. change is often a painful process- there should be a couple of spells fueled by positive energy that only deal damage (more to undead, but hey, that's expected, and has nothing to do with alignment). if this is done, then the whole deathless/undead thing can be put to rest.

paladins. always LG. that bites. i like the UA, for the alternate paladins, but they give them inflic wound abilites!? so i changed that. all paladins have the same "lay on hands ability", but it's a bit different (please advise if you think this is broken)- a paladin (or simliar class) gains a number of positive energy points equal to it's cha X it's level. this energy can be used to heal or harm, as the paladin wishes (as positive energy, it can only harm undead). use of this ability requires a touch attack against unwilling recipients. now among other thing this means that feats can be taken to enhacne these "positive energy strikes". also, this goes with changeing the turn/rebuke abilities of the paladin, just like a cleric.

hmm. i think i'm rambling. well please respond, the idea/system is a little (or a lot) rough.

i've never liked how clerics gain the turn undead ability, and i especially loath the assumption that all undead are evil and therefore the turning alignment thing.
note (for those that care- i use deathless as a subtype to undead, alignment is seperate)

:lightbulb
an idea (if you use undead/deathless, and wish to disasociate turn/rebuke undead with good evil- allow clerics (and others) to gain positive or negative energy affinity (positive- spontaneous cure, turn deathless, rebuke undead, negative- spontaneous inflict, turn undead, rebuke deathless).

ok, please share thoughts (or at least written words- internet telepathy is difficult).
Mula
04-17-05, 12:42 PM You have the UA; have you checked out the class feature variants, namely the planar banishment?

Also, if you want to remove the automatic spontaneous cure/inflict casting class feature, how about allowing clerics to spontaneously swap domain spells. This is a house rule already suggested in UA, but it didn't address spontaneous cure/inflict spells (as written, the rule removes the +1 per spell level). What if you removed the ability to spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells, gave the ability to spontaneously cast spells from their domain lists (akin to cure/inflict spells), and still keep the +1 domain spell prepared per spell level?
The Morninglord
04-19-05, 09:20 AM I agree with Mula on both accounts: using the planar banishment is probably the easiest way to change the class feature, and letting the cleric spontaneously cast domain spells is a good change as well. There is a feat in Complete Divine who lets you do just that (although only from one domain). You can change the domain ability of the Sun domain to allow clerics to turn undead instead of giving them the greater turning ability. If you use the variant rule of druid domains (from UA, I believe), druids would have the option of turning undead as well (which actually makes more sense, I guess).
Patrick Draken-Korin
04-26-05, 11:48 AM hmm. hmm. dagnabit!? :banghead: i printed that wrong!

i meant to change the post for the section on how the new turning system should work (oops). the idea is as follows;

normally, a priest turns or destroys undead right? (destroy if there are 2x the HD of turning required to turn the undead, i think). well the idea was that outsiders would be turned normally, or banished to thier home plane (if on their home plane then the outsider would be destroyed). i made this change because banishment as a success for turning means the outsider is gone (and effectively defeat = Xp), and i don't think is balanced that an ability that used to weaken enemies is now an effective instant defeat method.

i could be wrong, so please share any further ideas (also, i'd apreciate comment on the paladins ability).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Patrick Draken-Korin 04-17-05, 12:24 PM	this is a thread i mistakenly placed on the class forum (darn, no responses- it deals with variants). recently i started work on an idea: why do clerics (and paladins) gain the ability to turn undead? i know it's a major ability, but why would most deities care about undead? (i know, most good deities would be opposed to undead IN GENERAL, but not THAT many would put that amount of effort into it, at least from the portfolio perspective- they just don't spend that much time working against undead, they've got other things to do. same, but reversed, for evil deities). from this point of view, turn/rebuke undead should probably be a domain power or feat based. but where would the clerics get thier replacment class feature? my best guess would be the ability to turn outsiders of an alignment opposed to your deities- you can turn outsiders with one alignment subtype at level 1 (set), and with a second alignment subtype at level 11 (set or choice). if your deity doesn't have an extreme alignment (LG, CL, LE, CE), then you can choose a opposed alignment (if you have no opposed alignment then pick one you want). true neutral deities must specify an opposed alignment for level 1 (usually an alignment possessed by a deitty with an opposing portfolio component). as a linking topic: the whole turn undead/cure, rebuke undead/inflict thing just goes to far in assuming that positive energy is nice (not necesarrily good, or the cure spells would have the good descriptor). positive energy is activity and growth, meaning change. change is often a painful process- there should be a couple of spells fueled by positive energy that only deal damage (more to undead, but hey, that's expected, and has nothing to do with alignment). if this is done, then the whole deathless/undead thing can be put to rest. paladins. always LG. that bites. i like the UA, for the alternate paladins, but they give them inflic wound abilites!? so i changed that. all paladins have the same "lay on hands ability", but it's a bit different (please advise if you think this is broken)- a paladin (or simliar class) gains a number of positive energy points equal to it's cha X it's level. this energy can be used to heal or harm, as the paladin wishes (as positive energy, it can only harm undead). use of this ability requires a touch attack against unwilling recipients. now among other thing this means that feats can be taken to enhacne these "positive energy strikes". also, this goes with changeing the turn/rebuke abilities of the paladin, just like a cleric. hmm. i think i'm rambling. well please respond, the idea/system is a little (or a lot) rough. i've never liked how clerics gain the turn undead ability, and i especially loath the assumption that all undead are evil and therefore the turning alignment thing. note (for those that care- i use deathless as a subtype to undead, alignment is seperate) :lightbulb an idea (if you use undead/deathless, and wish to disasociate turn/rebuke undead with good evil- allow clerics (and others) to gain positive or negative energy affinity (positive- spontaneous cure, turn deathless, rebuke undead, negative- spontaneous inflict, turn undead, rebuke deathless). ok, please share thoughts (or at least written words- internet telepathy is difficult).
Mula 04-17-05, 12:42 PM	You have the UA; have you checked out the class feature variants, namely the planar banishment? Also, if you want to remove the automatic spontaneous cure/inflict casting class feature, how about allowing clerics to spontaneously swap domain spells. This is a house rule already suggested in UA, but it didn't address spontaneous cure/inflict spells (as written, the rule removes the +1 per spell level). What if you removed the ability to spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells, gave the ability to spontaneously cast spells from their domain lists (akin to cure/inflict spells), and still keep the +1 domain spell prepared per spell level?
The Morninglord 04-19-05, 09:20 AM	I agree with Mula on both accounts: using the planar banishment is probably the easiest way to change the class feature, and letting the cleric spontaneously cast domain spells is a good change as well. There is a feat in Complete Divine who lets you do just that (although only from one domain). You can change the domain ability of the Sun domain to allow clerics to turn undead instead of giving them the greater turning ability. If you use the variant rule of druid domains (from UA, I believe), druids would have the option of turning undead as well (which actually makes more sense, I guess).
Patrick Draken-Korin 04-26-05, 11:48 AM	hmm. hmm. dagnabit!? :banghead: i printed that wrong! i meant to change the post for the section on how the new turning system should work (oops). the idea is as follows; normally, a priest turns or destroys undead right? (destroy if there are 2x the HD of turning required to turn the undead, i think). well the idea was that outsiders would be turned normally, or banished to thier home plane (if on their home plane then the outsider would be destroyed). i made this change because banishment as a success for turning means the outsider is gone (and effectively defeat = Xp), and i don't think is balanced that an ability that used to weaken enemies is now an effective instant defeat method. i could be wrong, so please share any further ideas (also, i'd apreciate comment on the paladins ability).