Reasonable swap for the familiar? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Reasonable swap for the familiar? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
darkwave
09-02-04, 04:11 PM I have seen comments where the familiar is not very strong, or overpowered or just right, and I have seen where others have discussed dropping animal companions. I have something that fits in there but seems more focused, so I wanted feedback to see if it was reasonable.

The player wants (due to back story) to have a character with no familiar, but extra skills. The reasoning being that the familiar takes up time that the character devoted to studies. The player isn't heartless, but is also traumatized as the pet dog the character had as a child, died (untrained animal care roll double natural 1's - *shudder*), which we were planning to have as the familiar (we were making back story) so in a way this is my fault for helping to organize backstory. :D

The loss of the familiar seemed to free up time, so I was THINKING that (8 + int modifier) = skills/level was reasonable, but after being pointed towards comments on how wizards are overpowered and familiars are weak, I'm not too sure what to suggest.

Has anyone else muddled through these waters and got some feedback? Doing nothing doesn’t seem fair (regardless of if wizards are too powerful or not - and when I look at the druid, I generate my own opinion on that) however I admit that I'm very likely to step back from the 8 base (which is a bonus +6) as it takes away from the rogue's specialties (and I have my own opinion on the weakness of 3.5 rogues as well).

So I guess which seems like the reasonable swap for the familiar: +2 or +4 skills per level?

Thanks for all feedback. :)
Obsidianjaerc
09-02-04, 06:02 PM Instead of Skill points I would allow him to take a feat. It seems much more like the sort of thing having no familiar would transfer over to. On the other hand a familiar could come to him without him calling it, and be used sort of as a role-playing device to get over the characters grief.
Ao
09-02-04, 06:15 PM [QUOTE=Obsidianjaerc]Instead of Skill points I would allow him to take a feat. It seems much more like the sort of thing having no familiar would transfer over to.

I agree with Obsidianjaerc, though compromise is possible. There are a myriad of feats that give bonuses to skills and there is always skill focus.
darkwave
09-02-04, 08:08 PM Obsidianjaerc: well, that makes quite a bit of sense; however there are 2 problems as I see it:
1) The feat bumps up the character a lot (relatively) for 1st level - and stays static afterward. Familiars seem to scale up a bit over levels - esp. if the character invests time/effort in the familiars.
2) The feat bump makes the character less unique over time (as every character gets more feats) compared to the norm, and the increased tendency for focused book learning isn't being rewarded.
I'm not saying I don't like the idea, but we're looking for something that carries on.

The idea of a familiar coming to the character would have been a great idea if the player hadn't gotten such a background dedicated to personal study. I suppose a rat could be friendly (and it would have to be a special rat anyway to get through the vermin repulsion of the library), but now with that background effort done, I hate to throw it away.

I guess the question is: how much do people hate bumping skill points?

Ao: Same issues as Obsidianjaerc as you agree. However it DOES look like +4 is also too great a bump in skills per level, which makes the character (int bonus + 4) skill points/level probably. I'm even now wondering if maybe it should be (Int bonus + 3) skill points/per level - you know, make it equal to the human bonus on skills (an additional 1 per level).

The +1 per level would result in examples of skill progression of say a human Sundered Wizard being the same as a normal non-human Barbarian, Monk or Druid. Regardless of one's opinion of the relative strengths of these classes, the "maxed out" book learning character isn't consuming libraries.

BTW - I didn't mention this, but the extra skill point(s) were going to HAVE to be spent on skills requiring training, where Int is the key ability and at least some book learning (So no Balance, no Slight of Hand and no Disable Device for these extra skill points) - pretty much the "Knowledge" series, Decipher Script and Spellcraft only for these points. I don't know if that is an important limitation (esp if the bonus is going to only be 1/level), but that was what "fit" with the character history.
-------

One thing is that this was all put forward for the wizard class. Relative to the Sorcerer, what if we kill 2 birds with one stone (err... maybe a bad phrase in this case - you'll see why) and say that a Sundered Sorcerer gets one additional spell known for each level of spells they can cast? (yes, I too suddenly have images of thousands of familiars being sacrificed in order for their sorcerer to gain this changed profile). This REALLY bumps up the usability and survivability of Sorcerer at early levels in my mind, plus makes them more reasonable at higher levels as well (kind of a non-issue levels 5-17, nice but not critical). Maybe in order to make this not TOO wonderful make it that the added spell has to belong to a specific School. Not much of a limitation really in my view of most sorcerers,( :D ) but at least it IS a limitation.
-------

BTW - I'm not rejecting the input given (I appreciate it); I'm just expressing my concerns relative to background information, information that I didn't express initially.
danielinthewolvesden
09-03-04, 12:40 AM He gets nothing. If wizard never scribes a scroll, does he get a bonus? If fighter only uses 1/10th the weapons he is familiar with- does he get more skill points?

Well- he does save the small cost of summoning one, and the dangers of having one. Note that last- many wizards & sorc decide not to take one because it is kinda dangerous. It's definately a mixed blessing.

Getting a familiar takes what- a day? Ok, give him one extra days training. That equals nothing. Or if you are being nice- +1 to a Knowledge skill.

And- certainly no skill points per level- after the initial time, he doesn't have to spend any significant time training a familiar. If you are SUPER nice, allow him one of the "2+2" feats.
Kirael
09-03-04, 07:30 AM danielinthewolvesden> I really don't agree with you... Just look to all these options given in UA to trade in exchange of the possibility to get a familiar when you're a specialised wizard. Most of them are more powerful than just a feat... just have a look to what a diviner can get.

darkwave> Still, since there ARE some wizards which don't have a familiar by choice and don't get anything from it, I'd suggest you not to give him any bonus skill points. If he's a specialized wizard, give him the UA trade-in for not being able to get a familiar ; if he's not, give him a free skill focus feat in one of the int-based, learning-related skills you listed before.
LukiLoki
09-03-04, 07:50 PM Well, really, a familiar is worth two feats, since they give alertness & another bonus, all of which mimic a feat (toughness, lightning reflexes, etc.)

But since those aren't what you call GOOD feats, giving up the familiar shouldn't be worth just any two feats.

What I do for sorcerers is if you don't want a familiar, you get eschew materials and 1 feat selected from the following: skill focus, or any of the "dual skill" feats like persuasive, or any one of the +2 to a save feats.

If you open it up to any bonus feat, then it should be just one.
Choice in itself is powerful.

As for skills, I think 8+mod. is too much, but 4+ is still a pretty good boost for a wizard.
MythMage
09-04-04, 12:49 PM I'd go with LukiLoki on feats and skill points. Familiars can be incredibly helpful sometimes; they're definitely worth that much.
darczero
09-29-04, 04:43 AM Instead of Skill points I would allow him to take a feat. It seems much more like the sort of thing having no familiar would transfer over to. On the other hand a familiar could come to him without him calling it, and be used sort of as a role-playing device to get over the characters grief.

Slight problem with that idea.

In my gaming experience, only one character had a Familiar over the course of dozens of Arcane Spellcasters (wizard and sorcerer) in the years since 3rd edition was released. That character took the Improved Familiar feat to gain an Eyeball (the cute little baby beholder thingy). His familiar mostly hovered around inside its hiding space and granted him the Alertness feat.

While Familiars grant a feat, they are worth much more. Unlike most feats, their power grows as their master advances in level. They can function as spies, translators, etc., and greatly extend the range of Touch spells (which can be extremely powerful; just think Bestow Curse, Harm, and that sort of thing). Not only that, but they have their own HP, AC, and Ability Scores; WoTC even released a Character Record sheet specifically for the little guys. The only feat I can think of that is worth giving up such a useful little critter for is the Leadership feat, because it's the only feat that really comes close to mimicking their abilities. Would you want every 1st level character in the game, especially those Sorcerers with their high Charisma scores, having Leadership?

If you insist on giving up your familiar, and aren't satisfied with the tradeoffs they suggest for specialist wizards in UA (the only one that's worth it is the Skeleton), then just don't bother taking one. They are as much of a hindrance as they are a benefit, after all. Or, play one of the many Divine spellcasters that grants lots of other abilities and have better spells all around.
Endarire
09-30-04, 08:10 PM When I take a familiar, I do so for the save bonus, and generally nothing else since they're so frail by default and getting them to a reasonable power takes about as much investment as another party member in terms of buffs or/and stuff.

-EE
DragonsArt
10-03-04, 07:55 PM A wizard who doesn't summon a familiar should get...hmm... he should get to keep the 100gp that he would have spent on the familiar.
Lina_Inverse
10-03-04, 08:37 PM most people consider summoning a familiar a negative since you lose alot of exp that should have gone to scribeing scrolls and being an item crafter.hence he gets nothing,the bonus is not loseing exp permanetly.
DevaNinja
10-07-04, 12:53 AM I just let one of my players swap out the ability to summon a familiar for the bardic knowledge ability. Remember a familiar gets better as the character rises in levels. In a way since Bardic knowledge is based on class level too, I figured it to be a fair trade.
Veomyr
10-07-04, 11:05 AM I just let one of my players swap out the ability to summon a familiar for the bardic knowledge ability. Remember a familiar gets better as the character rises in levels. In a way since Bardic knowledge is based on class level too, I figured it to be a fair trade.

I have a level 5 wizard (sans familiar) and I was thinking about asking my DM if I could do the same thing. My character is semi-based on myself, and my brain is chock full of random, semi-useless bits of info.
starfire311
10-08-04, 11:46 AM I got rid of scribe scroll and summon familiar being automatic for wizards. I instead give a bonus feat at first and second level, and scribe scroll and summon familiar are feats now.
Lina_Inverse
10-08-04, 10:23 PM I just let one of my players swap out the ability to summon a familiar for the bardic knowledge ability. Remember a familiar gets better as the character rises in levels. In a way since Bardic knowledge is based on class level too, I figured it to be a fair trade.

thats at LEAST 8skillpoints a level.since bardic knowledge is knowledge EVERYTHING.
DevaNinja
10-08-04, 10:31 PM thats at LEAST 8skillpoints a level.since bardic knowledge is knowledge EVERYTHING.

How do you figure 8 skill points a level? Have you seen the DC's for Bardic Knowledge as well? It starts at 20 and goes up from there! If we go on average rolls, then said character won't really be able to know anything until 10th level! (10th level character +10 bonus, "Average" roll of 10 on a d20). Technically the familiar would have been far more useful at 10th level.
tompulsar
10-08-04, 11:36 PM Here is what I allow folks to trade in their familiars for

**************************************** *****************

Focus Item

Some casters decide to forgo having a familiar in favor of a focus item. A focus item is a spellcasters extra magical punch when he needs it. Focus items can be any sort of non-magical item; a well worn hat, a mage’s trusty wand, a cloak made of dragon hide, or a lucky bracelet are all examples of things that can be focus items. Focus items usually fall within the trappings of arcane magic but can be anything really (a large gem, a shrunken head, a masterwork weapon, a doll, a musical instrument) as long as it is of personal significance to the caster.
The focus item has a base cost of 100 gp and its owner must spend a week in meditation and ritual bonding with the item whereupon it gains mystical power while being held by its owner. A caster who is separated from his focus item for more than two weeks loses his bond with the item and must spend another week rebonding with the item to regain its power. If a focus item is ever destroyed the owner must make a fort save DC 15 or loose 200 experience times his level. The owner may replace the focus item as soon as they like by repeating the original ritual.

Focus Item Powers
The following are the powers granted by the focus item to its owner. (Theses bonuses accrue only for levels in the spellcasting class in which you received the Focus Item ability.)

* Grants its owner a +1 insight bonus to Concentration checks at first level and an additional +1 for every four caster levels the owner gains.

* Spell Storage: The focus item can store magic spells for later use. This ability functions as a ring of spell storing but only for its’ bonded owner. The focus item holds one-half (1/2) the caster’s level rounded down in spell storage slots (for example a 5th level wizards focus item could store 2 levels of spells). These spells must be cast into the focus item by its bonded owner and may only be recalled by its bonded owner.

* Sudden Focus: Once per day the owner can channel a spell through the focus item and add a +1 to the Difficulty Class to resists that spell.

**************************************** *****************
Not appropriat for all campaigns but it works for me :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
darkwave 09-02-04, 04:11 PM	I have seen comments where the familiar is not very strong, or overpowered or just right, and I have seen where others have discussed dropping animal companions. I have something that fits in there but seems more focused, so I wanted feedback to see if it was reasonable. The player wants (due to back story) to have a character with no familiar, but extra skills. The reasoning being that the familiar takes up time that the character devoted to studies. The player isn't heartless, but is also traumatized as the pet dog the character had as a child, died (untrained animal care roll double natural 1's - shudder), which we were planning to have as the familiar (we were making back story) so in a way this is my fault for helping to organize backstory. :D The loss of the familiar seemed to free up time, so I was THINKING that (8 + int modifier) = skills/level was reasonable, but after being pointed towards comments on how wizards are overpowered and familiars are weak, I'm not too sure what to suggest. Has anyone else muddled through these waters and got some feedback? Doing nothing doesn’t seem fair (regardless of if wizards are too powerful or not - and when I look at the druid, I generate my own opinion on that) however I admit that I'm very likely to step back from the 8 base (which is a bonus +6) as it takes away from the rogue's specialties (and I have my own opinion on the weakness of 3.5 rogues as well). So I guess which seems like the reasonable swap for the familiar: +2 or +4 skills per level? Thanks for all feedback. :)
Obsidianjaerc 09-02-04, 06:02 PM	Instead of Skill points I would allow him to take a feat. It seems much more like the sort of thing having no familiar would transfer over to. On the other hand a familiar could come to him without him calling it, and be used sort of as a role-playing device to get over the characters grief.
Ao 09-02-04, 06:15 PM	[QUOTE=Obsidianjaerc]Instead of Skill points I would allow him to take a feat. It seems much more like the sort of thing having no familiar would transfer over to. I agree with Obsidianjaerc, though compromise is possible. There are a myriad of feats that give bonuses to skills and there is always skill focus.
darkwave 09-02-04, 08:08 PM	Obsidianjaerc: well, that makes quite a bit of sense; however there are 2 problems as I see it: 1) The feat bumps up the character a lot (relatively) for 1st level - and stays static afterward. Familiars seem to scale up a bit over levels - esp. if the character invests time/effort in the familiars. 2) The feat bump makes the character less unique over time (as every character gets more feats) compared to the norm, and the increased tendency for focused book learning isn't being rewarded. I'm not saying I don't like the idea, but we're looking for something that carries on. The idea of a familiar coming to the character would have been a great idea if the player hadn't gotten such a background dedicated to personal study. I suppose a rat could be friendly (and it would have to be a special rat anyway to get through the vermin repulsion of the library), but now with that background effort done, I hate to throw it away. I guess the question is: how much do people hate bumping skill points? Ao: Same issues as Obsidianjaerc as you agree. However it DOES look like +4 is also too great a bump in skills per level, which makes the character (int bonus + 4) skill points/level probably. I'm even now wondering if maybe it should be (Int bonus + 3) skill points/per level - you know, make it equal to the human bonus on skills (an additional 1 per level). The +1 per level would result in examples of skill progression of say a human Sundered Wizard being the same as a normal non-human Barbarian, Monk or Druid. Regardless of one's opinion of the relative strengths of these classes, the "maxed out" book learning character isn't consuming libraries. BTW - I didn't mention this, but the extra skill point(s) were going to HAVE to be spent on skills requiring training, where Int is the key ability and at least some book learning (So no Balance, no Slight of Hand and no Disable Device for these extra skill points) - pretty much the "Knowledge" series, Decipher Script and Spellcraft only for these points. I don't know if that is an important limitation (esp if the bonus is going to only be 1/level), but that was what "fit" with the character history. ------- One thing is that this was all put forward for the wizard class. Relative to the Sorcerer, what if we kill 2 birds with one stone (err... maybe a bad phrase in this case - you'll see why) and say that a Sundered Sorcerer gets one additional spell known for each level of spells they can cast? (yes, I too suddenly have images of thousands of familiars being sacrificed in order for their sorcerer to gain this changed profile). This REALLY bumps up the usability and survivability of Sorcerer at early levels in my mind, plus makes them more reasonable at higher levels as well (kind of a non-issue levels 5-17, nice but not critical). Maybe in order to make this not TOO wonderful make it that the added spell has to belong to a specific School. Not much of a limitation really in my view of most sorcerers,( :D ) but at least it IS a limitation. ------- BTW - I'm not rejecting the input given (I appreciate it); I'm just expressing my concerns relative to background information, information that I didn't express initially.
danielinthewolvesden 09-03-04, 12:40 AM	He gets nothing. If wizard never scribes a scroll, does he get a bonus? If fighter only uses 1/10th the weapons he is familiar with- does he get more skill points? Well- he does save the small cost of summoning one, and the dangers of having one. Note that last- many wizards & sorc decide not to take one because it is kinda dangerous. It's definately a mixed blessing. Getting a familiar takes what- a day? Ok, give him one extra days training. That equals nothing. Or if you are being nice- +1 to a Knowledge skill. And- certainly no skill points per level- after the initial time, he doesn't have to spend any significant time training a familiar. If you are SUPER nice, allow him one of the "2+2" feats.
Kirael 09-03-04, 07:30 AM	danielinthewolvesden> I really don't agree with you... Just look to all these options given in UA to trade in exchange of the possibility to get a familiar when you're a specialised wizard. Most of them are more powerful than just a feat... just have a look to what a diviner can get. darkwave> Still, since there ARE some wizards which don't have a familiar by choice and don't get anything from it, I'd suggest you not to give him any bonus skill points. If he's a specialized wizard, give him the UA trade-in for not being able to get a familiar ; if he's not, give him a free skill focus feat in one of the int-based, learning-related skills you listed before.
LukiLoki 09-03-04, 07:50 PM	Well, really, a familiar is worth two feats, since they give alertness & another bonus, all of which mimic a feat (toughness, lightning reflexes, etc.) But since those aren't what you call GOOD feats, giving up the familiar shouldn't be worth just any two feats. What I do for sorcerers is if you don't want a familiar, you get eschew materials and 1 feat selected from the following: skill focus, or any of the "dual skill" feats like persuasive, or any one of the +2 to a save feats. If you open it up to any bonus feat, then it should be just one. Choice in itself is powerful. As for skills, I think 8+mod. is too much, but 4+ is still a pretty good boost for a wizard.
MythMage 09-04-04, 12:49 PM	I'd go with LukiLoki on feats and skill points. Familiars can be incredibly helpful sometimes; they're definitely worth that much.
darczero 09-29-04, 04:43 AM	Instead of Skill points I would allow him to take a feat. It seems much more like the sort of thing having no familiar would transfer over to. On the other hand a familiar could come to him without him calling it, and be used sort of as a role-playing device to get over the characters grief. Slight problem with that idea. In my gaming experience, only one character had a Familiar over the course of dozens of Arcane Spellcasters (wizard and sorcerer) in the years since 3rd edition was released. That character took the Improved Familiar feat to gain an Eyeball (the cute little baby beholder thingy). His familiar mostly hovered around inside its hiding space and granted him the Alertness feat. While Familiars grant a feat, they are worth much more. Unlike most feats, their power grows as their master advances in level. They can function as spies, translators, etc., and greatly extend the range of Touch spells (which can be extremely powerful; just think Bestow Curse, Harm, and that sort of thing). Not only that, but they have their own HP, AC, and Ability Scores; WoTC even released a Character Record sheet specifically for the little guys. The only feat I can think of that is worth giving up such a useful little critter for is the Leadership feat, because it's the only feat that really comes close to mimicking their abilities. Would you want every 1st level character in the game, especially those Sorcerers with their high Charisma scores, having Leadership? If you insist on giving up your familiar, and aren't satisfied with the tradeoffs they suggest for specialist wizards in UA (the only one that's worth it is the Skeleton), then just don't bother taking one. They are as much of a hindrance as they are a benefit, after all. Or, play one of the many Divine spellcasters that grants lots of other abilities and have better spells all around.
Endarire 09-30-04, 08:10 PM	When I take a familiar, I do so for the save bonus, and generally nothing else since they're so frail by default and getting them to a reasonable power takes about as much investment as another party member in terms of buffs or/and stuff. -EE
DragonsArt 10-03-04, 07:55 PM	A wizard who doesn't summon a familiar should get...hmm... he should get to keep the 100gp that he would have spent on the familiar.
Lina_Inverse 10-03-04, 08:37 PM	most people consider summoning a familiar a negative since you lose alot of exp that should have gone to scribeing scrolls and being an item crafter.hence he gets nothing,the bonus is not loseing exp permanetly.
DevaNinja 10-07-04, 12:53 AM	I just let one of my players swap out the ability to summon a familiar for the bardic knowledge ability. Remember a familiar gets better as the character rises in levels. In a way since Bardic knowledge is based on class level too, I figured it to be a fair trade.
Veomyr 10-07-04, 11:05 AM	I just let one of my players swap out the ability to summon a familiar for the bardic knowledge ability. Remember a familiar gets better as the character rises in levels. In a way since Bardic knowledge is based on class level too, I figured it to be a fair trade. I have a level 5 wizard (sans familiar) and I was thinking about asking my DM if I could do the same thing. My character is semi-based on myself, and my brain is chock full of random, semi-useless bits of info.
starfire311 10-08-04, 11:46 AM	I got rid of scribe scroll and summon familiar being automatic for wizards. I instead give a bonus feat at first and second level, and scribe scroll and summon familiar are feats now.
Lina_Inverse 10-08-04, 10:23 PM	I just let one of my players swap out the ability to summon a familiar for the bardic knowledge ability. Remember a familiar gets better as the character rises in levels. In a way since Bardic knowledge is based on class level too, I figured it to be a fair trade. thats at LEAST 8skillpoints a level.since bardic knowledge is knowledge EVERYTHING.
DevaNinja 10-08-04, 10:31 PM	thats at LEAST 8skillpoints a level.since bardic knowledge is knowledge EVERYTHING. How do you figure 8 skill points a level? Have you seen the DC's for Bardic Knowledge as well? It starts at 20 and goes up from there! If we go on average rolls, then said character won't really be able to know anything until 10th level! (10th level character +10 bonus, "Average" roll of 10 on a d20). Technically the familiar would have been far more useful at 10th level.
tompulsar 10-08-04, 11:36 PM	Here is what I allow folks to trade in their familiars for ************************************** *************** Focus Item Some casters decide to forgo having a familiar in favor of a focus item. A focus item is a spellcasters extra magical punch when he needs it. Focus items can be any sort of non-magical item; a well worn hat, a mage’s trusty wand, a cloak made of dragon hide, or a lucky bracelet are all examples of things that can be focus items. Focus items usually fall within the trappings of arcane magic but can be anything really (a large gem, a shrunken head, a masterwork weapon, a doll, a musical instrument) as long as it is of personal significance to the caster. The focus item has a base cost of 100 gp and its owner must spend a week in meditation and ritual bonding with the item whereupon it gains mystical power while being held by its owner. A caster who is separated from his focus item for more than two weeks loses his bond with the item and must spend another week rebonding with the item to regain its power. If a focus item is ever destroyed the owner must make a fort save DC 15 or loose 200 experience times his level. The owner may replace the focus item as soon as they like by repeating the original ritual. Focus Item Powers The following are the powers granted by the focus item to its owner. (Theses bonuses accrue only for levels in the spellcasting class in which you received the Focus Item ability.) * Grants its owner a +1 insight bonus to Concentration checks at first level and an additional +1 for every four caster levels the owner gains. * Spell Storage: The focus item can store magic spells for later use. This ability functions as a ring of spell storing but only for its’ bonded owner. The focus item holds one-half (1/2) the caster’s level rounded down in spell storage slots (for example a 5th level wizards focus item could store 2 levels of spells). These spells must be cast into the focus item by its bonded owner and may only be recalled by its bonded owner. * Sudden Focus: Once per day the owner can channel a spell through the focus item and add a +1 to the Difficulty Class to resists that spell. ************************************** *************** Not appropriat for all campaigns but it works for me :)