Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Judging Eagle 09-23-06, 06:09 PM	The original post made: DISCLAIMER: None of this has been playtested at all, except in my own mind. This is just a rough sketch of an idea, and it is quite possible that a few tweaks to the actual numbers involved might help things. Pure spellcasters have a new stat: Spellcasting. It increases by +1 every level. Instead of having Spellpoints or spells per day, they have a pool of 10 Focus. Each spell has a Spellcasting DC: Level 0 spells have a DC of 10 Level 1 - DC 13 Level 2 - DC 16 Level 3 - DC 19 etc. Level 9 - DC 37 You make a spellcasting check each time you cast a spell, rolling 1d20 + Spellcasting + Casting Ability Score Bonus If you make the check, you cast the spell for free. If you fail it by 1-5 it costs 1 focus, 6-10 it costs 2 focus, etc. So I'm a level 17 wizard and i cast meteor swarm. My INT is 22. 1d20 + 17 + 6 I roll a 14, for a total check of 37. I cast meteor swarm and it consumes no focus. My focus pool remains at the maximum of 10. Then I cast Power Word: Kill. This time I roll a 2. That equals to 25, failing by 12. My focus is reduced to 8. You regain your focus when you rest. You prepare spells in advance, but you can cast any of the spells you have prepared at any time, you don't have to prepare a certain number of "copies" of that spell. Sorcerers would have 15 focus and would only be able to cast the spells they know, but could cast any spell they know at any time. One of the advantages to the system is that it greatly increases the power of spellcasters at low levels without so much mucking about with spellpoints and such. One of the disadvantages is that it becomes very easy to cast low level spells infinitely once you reach high levels. This can be countered by adjusting the mechanics of the roll. Make it so that if you make the roll it consumes 1 focus and that you must beat the DC by at least 5 to get the spell for free. Alternatively, you could make it so that the spell consumes 3 focus when you make the roll, and you can reduce the cost by 1 for every 5 over the DC you make. If the standard was to consume 3 focus, however, I would probably increase the maximum focus a wizard gets per day to say, 20, and possibly increase their total as they gain levels. Or you could simply increase the DCs, make them start at 20 for a level 0 spell and increase it by 3 for every level. This way, it would be impossible to make your check casting 9th level spells unless you had at least a +7 INT bonus, so doing so would almost always cost focus. The feel I was trying to capture was the conception of a wizard who fights entirely with magic and doesn't deign to use mundane methods for anything. He can fling magic missiles all day long, but is quickly tired out when attempting his most powerful spells. Imagine the analogy of a long-distance runner. The average person, if forced to walk 8 miles, would be very tired at the end. However, if you join the army and have to run a few miles everyday, walking becomes fairly easy and you can probably walk a few miles without being winded or feeling at all worn out. And the thread discussing this system: Alternative Spell Casting System (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=695957) So, changes based on the conculsions for the original thread lead me to craete this: 1. Focus Pool per day All preparation-based casters get 10 Focus; all spontaneos casters have 15 Focus. This number never changes; and all spells cast drain from these points. Different casters regain spells in different manners as listed below. Spells cast per day may drain this focus Pool, however a high enough level spell caster can probably cast their lowest level spells all day long if needed. [edit] Spell casters with more than one type of casting get a different Focus Pool per casting class, spells cast by each class drain from their own pool however. 2. Spells and Metamagic Feats 'Prepared' per day Spells 'prepared' per day = Caster Level + Casting stat (not modifier, stat; so a 5th lvl wizard with 16 Int can prepare 21 Spells per day) that grants bonus spell slots normally (so, characters like Archivists/Favoured Souls/War Mages/etc. are still going to want to pump both int and wis). Spontaneous automatically can cast any spell that they know (they have a small enough spell list as it is). [Added by me] [Edit] Metamagic Feats: For preperation-based spell casters, Metamagic Feats also take up Spells Preperation slots. One slot per metamagic feat must be used to use any metamagic feats. A preperation-based spell caster cannot apply a metamagic feat to a spell unless both were 'prepared' that day. However, a preperation-based spell caster may apply any metamagic feats they have prepared to any spell they cast so long as they can still cast the spell (i.e. the modified spell is till of a level that they may cast). Spontanteous casters gain Metamagic Feats Slots (Equal to Caster Level + Casting Stat that would normally grant bonus spells) instead of spells 'Prepared' per day. However, unlike a spell caster who prepares their spells the metamagic Feats readied by a spontaneous caster take up a number of Metamagic slots equal to the number of spell levels they would add to a spell. Spontaneous casers may also learn and apply the Quicken Spell Metamagic Feat to their spells (however, it would take up 4 slots of their Metamagic Slots). If a spontaneous caster uses a metamagic feat that they did nothave sufficent Metamagic slots to prepare that Metamagic Feat for the day; the normal rules for spontaneous spellcasters applyinging metamagic spells to ther spells applies (i.e. usually, increasing the casting time to a full round). In either case, a spell caster can never cast a spell which, when affected by metamagic feats, places it higher than any spell level that they can cast (ex. A 3rd lvl wizard can cast an empowered magic missile, but not an empowered scorching ray, at least until they can cast 3rd lvl spells). Class abilities and Feats that lower a metamagiced spell's level may however lower a spell so that is still castable however. The idea is that more experienced and innately powerful casters can prepare and recall more spells and apply metamagic feats to any spell in their repetoire if they so choose. While Spontanteous casters already know their spells; they can still benefit from higher caster level and casting stat since it allows them to 'prepare' metamagic feats, allowing them to get around the full-round action that metamagic feats adds to spontaneous casters; also allowing a spont caster to quicken spells. However, they still have to select which metamagic feats they will prepare. However, they should be more than able to 'prepare' any metamagic feat they know. The 'slots per day' cost of a spontaneous caster's metamagic feats could be increased by +50% to a minimum of +1 more 'slots' used up. So, still spell = 2 slots, silent spell = 2 slots; quicken spell would cost 6 slots. Thus, making it so that a spontaneous caster would still have to consider which metamagic feats that they know they should prep per day. 3. Check to cast a spell At both lvl 1 and lvl 20; burning Focus Points on your most powerful spells should cost roughly the same amount of "Focus"; this is done by starting the DC for casting a spell at 20 and adding 3 per spell level from there on. A spell caster must always have at least 1 Focus left to cast a spell; and always uses up one focus to cast a spell, unless the check is beat by 5 or more, the base cost of 1 focus must always be paid. Ex. Clvl: Caster Level Slvl: Spell Level CC: Casting check (Casting check = 1d20 + Caster Level + Casting Stat Modifier (not bonus spells modifier for dual stat casters) ex. 10th lvl Cleric with 28 Wis has a CC modifier of +19 (10 (caster lvl) + 9 (from Wisdom)) (F): Casting Check needed to get a free spell; these are the spells normal check +5 ATM: Aveage Total Modifier (for a caster of this level, assuming they keep adding to their casting sat every four levels and they buy appropriate stat boosting gear (16 +6 Enchancment, +5 Inherent, +5 Levels, +/- 2 Racial). D20: The d20 roll needed to cast the highest level spell for a spell caster for the cost of one focus (this is more of an analysis to show what a spell caster will have to roll to get the cheapest Focus cost of a spell; this is usually a roll of 16+ for a spell caster who has jut got their new level of spells) (D20 F): The d20 roll needed to cast a spell for the cost of 0 focus. Usually a roll of a natural 20 will let the spell caster cast their spell for free, assuming that their caster level and casting stat haven't been reduced in some manner. Since a 20 reduces the cost of a spell by one, but doesn't grant it for free. Clvl Slvl CC DC (F) ATM D20(D20 F)* 1 0 15 (20) 4 11 (16) 1 1 20 (25) 5 15 (20) 2 1 20 (25) 6 14 (19) 3 2 23 (28) 7 16 (-) 4 2 23 (28) 8 15 (20) 5 3 26 (31) 9 17 (-) 6 3 26 (31) 11 15 (20) 7 4 29 (34) 13 16 (-) 8 4 29 (34) 15 14 (19) 9 5 32 (37) 16 16 (-) 10 5 32 (37) 18 14 (19) 11 6 35 (40) 19 16 (-) 12 6 35 (40) 21 14 (19) 13 7 38 (43) 22 16 (-) 14 7 38 (43) 24 14 (19) 15 8 41 (46) 25 16 (-) 16 8 41 (46) 27 14 (19) 17 9 44 (49) 28 16 (-) 18 9 44 (49) 29 15 (20) 19 9 44 (49) 30 14 (19) 20 9 44 (49) 31 13 (18) *:Rolls of a natural 1 increase the cost of any spell by one focus; while rolls of a natural 20 reduce the spell cost by one to a minimum cost of 0 focus. Breakdown and Analysis og what these sort of DCs and Possible modifiers mean in-game: Casting never gets easier; in fact; after level 4, casting your highest level spells will always be harder (not by much, but it does get 5% harder to keep casting for 'cheap'). As you will almost never get them for free; lower level spells will always be easier since you'll have a higher caster level and stat mod to cast lower level spells with their lower Caster Check DCs. So, while the 5th lvl caster can't get a 3rd lvl spell for free (except on a natural 20 and assuming a +4 Stat modifer; getting +5 doesn't happen till lvl 6 I've found); a 1st lvl spell is free on a roll of 15 or better; while the spell costs 1 Focus on a d20 roll of 10 or more. So, a 3rd lvl spell would cost a 5th lvl full caster 1-4 Focus; while the 1st lvl spell will cost 0-2 Focus. Spells of 1st lvl are usually worth, nothing to half of what a 3rd lvl spell is; which makes sense. A spell two levels higher than an other is usually worth as much as two of the lower level spell (ex. Fireball(3rd) vs Magic Missile (1st); Expeditious Retreat (1st) Vs. Haste (3rd)). A base roll of 16 to get a spell for 1 focus means you can't get it for free since we're using a d20, not a d30. So, as well, (assuming 2-4+ encounters per day) casters using their lower level spells more often will be more common than casters going for they're most powerful spells per day. SO, you will see 'more' magic, just lower power versions of it. Since hitting 28-30+ in a stat isn't that uncommon; even a mid-powered lvl 20 wizard should be able to hit 28 Int; coming to a +9 modifier. At 20th lvl; that would give them a modifier of +29 to their Caster Checks. Meaning that they have a 1/4 chance of getting a spell for free; but also a 1/4 chance of spending 1 Focus; 1/4 of spending 2 Focus and 1/4 of spending 3 Focus. So really they're spending or at least risking themselves in spending at least one focus per 9th lvl spell they cast, but can still cast at least 2-3 if they're still at full power per day if they botch two 9th lvl spells (but would have 1-2 focus left so they could still cast 'some' spells). [edit] [i]Nm, 32 can be hit; so a +11 modifier; +12 if you have a +2 racial to int. forgot that Elrabin had a base cost of 1 Focus; adding that in while not changing the DC's still has a 20th lvl caster with 32-34 int spend about ... 1.5 Focus per casting of a 9th lvl spell*? So even then, they get an average of 6 9th level spells per day (1 more than a wiz with 32+ int would have, but 1 less than a sorcerers and average with a clerics). A much larger amout of lower lvl spells are castable for nearly free. 1st to 3rd lvl spells for a 20th lvl caster with 32+ in their casting stat are essentially 'free'. Fourth level spells need a roll of 4 or more to be 'free'; 5th need 6 or more; 6th need a 9 or more. After that you get higher and higher chances of losing Focus to cast. Howeverlower lvl spells usually tend to pale in comparison to higherlevel ones. Also; such a caster would only be able to prepare 52-54 Total Spells and/or metamagic feats per day or roughly about 5-6 spells per level. Plus this system scales downwards so that you're always going to get at most 4 of your highest lvl spells per day on average. *:[my math here is right here, right?] I added 0 + 1 + 2 + 3 for the costs; and there's a 25% chance for each to occur, so I divided the costs ] 4. Consequences of Failing a Casting Check For every 5 points that a spell caster fails their Casting Check, they lose 1 point of Focus, with 1 lost for failing by 1-5, 2 for failing by 6-10; 3 for failing by 11-15 etc. 5. Consequences of running out of Focus If a spell caster fails a Casting Check that would bring them to less than 0 Focus (ex. they had 2 left and failed by 15 or more; and would have to use 3 Focus normally); the spell fizzles. If a spell caster is reduced to 0 Focus and are fatigued. 6. Regaining Focus. Preperation-based spell casters must rest for 8 hours, they do not need to sleep, but must not engage in any strenous activity and must spend an hour preparing their spells/communing with their deity or the natural world. Spontaneous spell casters regain their focus at a rate of one per hour that they are not casting but may freely engage in any other activities such as adventuring or even combat, with double recovery (2 per hour) if they are resting. So; I think that covers any issues that the original had; plus some that I don't think anyone talked about: 1. How metamagic worked, and how to balance it (metamagic now takes prepared spell slots; and a number of slots equal to their added spell level for spont casters. Although it could be a Metamagic Feat's added spell levels +50% for spont casters to force them to choose what they want. Maybe even go as far as have each Metamagic Feat cast x2 in preperation slots as the levels it modifies a spell by. 2. Using a spontaneous caster isn't as bad as it is in the original version (here they have a faster recharge rate; and can recharge on the fly). 3. In theory, alternate casters (like pallies, rangers and to a lesser extent Bards) will be able to use their spells more often as well as prepare more spells per day, so this system beefs them out a bit. 4. Full spellcasters will and should be able to throw out spells on a regular basis, so they as a result might be a lot more inclined to throw out lower level 'buffing' spells every fight. This wil have a two-fold effect. It will make each individual fight end sooner, but also have the curbing effect that the spell casters will spend precious rounds in combat buffing allies instead of using blasting spells (unless they really have an opportunity such as when 5 or more enemies are all bunched up for a fireball or several are all lined up for a lighting bolt). 5. In addition, adventures will not be delayed as often by parties that want to rest and lower level spell casters can mix and match their spells per day. Allowing them to prepare multiple spells of their highest spell slot is a non-issue since they'll still have a pretty good chance of burning through focus points and will then start resorting to lower level spells that they can cast more reliably. 6. Even at 20th lvl with a max of 32 in a casting stat (Ex. 32 int for a wizard; 16 base + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 enchantement). The caster needs to roll: CC DC: 44 (Free 49); Modifiers: Caster lvl + Stat Mod + 1d20 = 20 + 11 = 31 + 1d20 Pay -1 - 20 - 5% a Free - 18+ - 10% Pay 1 - 13+ - 25% Pay 2 - 8+ - 25% Pay 3 - 3+ - 25% Pay 4 - 2+ - 5% Pay +1 - 1 - 5% b a: Rolls of a natural 20 reduce the focus cost by 1; to a minimum of 0 focus. b: Rolls of a natural 1 increase the focus cost of a spell by 1 [I'm not sure if I should increase every Casting Check DC by 1 so that free spells max out at 10% of the time, and 'botches' at 15%...] Each spell level lower than 9th adds 15% more to the free chance (so 8th have a 30% chance of being free; 7th 45%; 6th 60%; 5th 75%; 4th 90%; and 3rd and lower should always be free). Hopefully this makes sense and it seems reasonable for a spell point-less system that allows a caster to throw out lower level spells with little to no problem while higher level spells aren't easy to just whip out with little cost.
Judging Eagle 09-24-06, 09:46 PM	There's been at least 20 or so views (I know I've viewed this at least twice; three times now) and no negative response. So, I'm guessing that this system sounds reasonable? I'm going to pitch this to the DM for our Eberron campaign, because frankly, 'preperation' of spells gets thrown out the door at times; and we're actually breaking rules on max spells per day at others. In either case, the spells aren't doing anything tactics-wise, usually the spells are used at the strategic level. Casting Stone Shape to temporarily imprison enemy leaders... (nm, low class lvled enemies) and their grunts. Stuff like that. However, having some more limitations would make me feel like we're not flouting the spirit of the rules. So, no one here thinks this is too broken? or too nerfing (nm, this sytem promotes options and having spellcasters be mroe willing to buff the non-casters?
Judging Eagle 09-26-06, 05:56 PM	So, I'm guessing with 30 views either no one cares for this system, or it's too good for words? What? I want at least a nudge as to anything that's wrong.
Jackmojo 09-27-06, 05:21 PM	I have some thoughts on it, but first can you clarify the goal here, I'm not sure which you're trying to acheive. Are you attempting to allow low level casters more spells per day or primarily to allow high level casters to cast as many low level spells as they wish? Jack
FeceMan 09-27-06, 05:56 PM	I just don't know how possible it is to create a skill-based magic system with the current D&D framework. If the D&D magic system were free-form magic, then, yes, one could do it. If people weren't so worried about balance, then, yes, one could do it. However, D&D doesn't have free-form magic and people are worried about balance. What you've done so far looks okay, but it also adds a degree of complexity. Also, your chart is very difficult to read. If you would clean it up, people would probably be more inclined to comment.
Szatany 09-27-06, 09:23 PM	I like the system very much, and when I finally get to writing my own mini version of PHB I'm probably gonna use it. I'd just change one thing - a CC check of natural one makes a spell cost 1 focus if it normally is free. That's because I believe that casters should have some minimum chance of running out of juice when repeatedly casting spells upon spells.
Judging Eagle 09-28-06, 02:12 PM	I like the system very much, and when I finally get to writing my own mini version of PHB I'm probably gonna use it. I'd just change one thing - a CC check of natural one makes a spell cost 1 focus if it normally is free. That's because I believe that casters should have some minimum chance of running out of juice when repeatedly casting spells upon spells. Yeah, a nat one costing a minumum of 1 focus would keep from just spamming their lower level spells (3rd lvl spells all day long could still cause problems I guess). I might change that instead, a Natural 20 reduces the cost of a spell by one focus; while a Natural 1 increases the cost by 1. Basically this spell system will make casters rely on the D20 as much as the melee classes do. However, they'll also have the chace to cast more often. JackMojo: I'm trying to have it so that a player doesn't have to really worry as much about what spells to prepare (and how many of ech spell to prepare per day). As well as do away with artibrary spell points that the UA version of spell points gives per level. If you notice, the 1st lvl caster will have a Casting Check modifer of roughly +4 (16 int, and +1 from caster leve). For a 1st lvl caster; a 0 level spells costs anywhere from 0-4 focus. Rolls of 16+ (25%) cost no Focus, rolls of 11+ (25%) cost 1 Focus; rolls of 6+ (25%) cost 2 Focus; rolls of 2+ (20%) cost 3 Focus and rolls of 1 (5%) cost 4 focus. So roughly each casting of a 0 level spell for a 1st lvl caster costs them about 1.5-2.0 Focus per casting (the natural 1's increase the cost from 1.5 Focus to an average of 2.0 per 0 level spell, however its' really more along the lines of a cost of 1.5 with the average cost being increased on a natural failure). First level spells cost more, since the DC jumps by 5, and will increase by 3 from there on in. So a 1st lvl spell costs 0 focus on a roll of a 20 (5%) 1 Focus on a roll of 16 or better (20%); costs 2 on 11 or better (25%); costs 3 Focus on rolls of 6 or better (25%); costs 4 on rolls of 2 or more (20%) and costs 5 focus on rolls of a 1 (5%). This brings the average 'cost' of a 1st lvl spell to 2.5 Focus; meaning that the spell caster can cast up to 4 1st lvl spells. So, they can cast about 0-6 0 lvl spells and/or 0-4 1st lvl spells. The thing is, their focus is split between the two levels of spells, so that you can't cast up to 6 0 lvl spells, then cat up to 4 1st lvl spells. Instead you have to decide whether to cast more 0 lvl spells, or try to cast less 1st lvl spells since all spell casting for a class drains the same pool of 10 Focus (multi-classed characters would have a pool for one class, and an other pool for an other class, but they can't combine these spell pools nirmally). FeceMan: Yes, I know, a 'skill' based system, would be easy to exploit (case in point: any number of ChaOP builds achieving skill checks highe enough to build... things like a Star Destroyer). Which is why I'm basing this system off of caster level and relevant stat mod for the character's casting class. Now, this brings up a whole new can of worms to light in that there are many builds and gear designed to increase 'caster level'. However, unless someone can demonstrate a legal (and plausible) method to acheive a caster level more than 30 in a 20th lvl caster I might reconsider limiting the Caster Level modifier to the Casting Check to be capped at a character's Hit Dice. Pun Pun can still acheive a near infinte stat, so unless he rolls really badly, he could spam any spell he could cast. Not like he couldn't using the core magic system anyway though. I'm gonna copy my OP and edit it so that it's legible/clearer to read. I might seperate the Prep from Spont casters into two sections. In any casae, the system I'm using needs less writing to explain itself than the current UA spell point system does. Also, this system takes less work to figure out how many spells a character can cast per level or what their bonus spells from high stats are, or how many spells they have left. I'm making this system b/c my current gaming group is barely sticking to the "spells prepared" rules or "spells per day" rules. So coming up with a variant that is more intuative for newer players with regards to what spells you have castable per day and how many you can cast per day is vital to keep spell casters from just casting a spell b/c it's on their spell list. Although, most of the spells cast that way have little real benefit over using good strong rope and having our new hill giant assistant guard the captured enemies; however never prepping spells then casting them is annoying. Plus it will help the existing casters in the campaign that I run work a bit smoother. Some of them forget to prepare spells per day as well.
Judging Eagle 09-30-06, 12:03 PM	Did some cleaning up of the casting check DCs (as well as listing what 'average' stat mod + caster level would be and the roll needed to cast for 1 focus and for free). I'm going to limit a spont caster to be able to prepare metamagic feats whose adjusted spell levels (that is, the amount of levels that the feat increases a spells level by) to equal to 1/2 of the character's caster level (meaning that sure, the sorc can quicken a spell by lvl 8, but can't use any other metamagic feat spontaneously for that day; plus he'll only be able to quicken... a lvl 0 spell whoop! whoop! so broken).