Recharge magic, anyone tried it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Recharge magic, anyone tried it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ShinoAburame
02-10-07, 02:11 AM I've considerd using the recharge magic over normal spells-per-day system. How good or bad would you say it is? Does it make spellcasters generaly better or worse? Cause i'm looking for something gritty but giving people the footroom to have fun with spells.
Chimaera2000
02-10-07, 05:22 PM I don't think that it provides a more gritty experience, as fewer limits tend to go against that feel. However, I do think that it's an extremely fun variant. It's quite potent and makes spellcasters more powerful overall, which may be a problem at high-level play where spellcasters are already the strongest classes. I like the balancing factor that you can't simply spam your strongest spells repeatedly. All in all, though, I think that the Tome of Battle system of recovery is the best. Basically, your abilities are based per encounter, but can only be used once unless you spend actions to recover them in combat. I'm just waiting and hoping for WotC to come up with a system that applies this to spellcasting,

Overall, I think it's a fun variant that some people may find overpowered. I'm not averse to trying it in a game, though.
Rivelstraz
02-10-07, 07:52 PM But 90% of ToB maneouvers are plain unusable outside combat, while many many arcane/divine spells are supposed to be used outside combat (although they got their combat use), so I think that a ToB variant wouldn't work with spellcasting overall.

The recharse system overpowers casters even more, since it removes (not completely) their only weakness : More encounters a day, less spells casted per encounter. On average, a wizard has to wait just 4.5 rounds to cast his most powerful spell (Almost all offensive spells go for the general table). So it's very possible you can cast a spell every single round without saving anything for the possible second, third and fourth encounter.

I'm personally using the same system as Psionics, also introduced in the same chapter than Recharge Magic in Unearthed Arcane. Casters are a bit more powerful, but it's so much easier for new players (or old players with some lack of skill) to understand, use or have success overall.

I really hope Vancian system gets fixed in any further edition they want to make. But that's the greatness of this. I can make my own "3.7" edition by fully adding the ToB classes, removing the Vancian system, etc.
Vaelan
02-11-07, 01:55 AM I have used Recharge, with substantial alterations.

First I redesigned the spellcasting classes. With nine levels of spells, Recharge loses a bit of its bite. My spellcasters have seven in total so that casting a spell of their highest level causes an immediate and noticable decrease in the potency of the next effect they throw out.

I also changed a lot of the buff spells. They don't scale anywhere near as well, but I added Greater versions that are higher level. This is something that needs to be done regardless of Recharge, though.

Lastly, I changed the rules about specific recharges. They are limits on the entire level of spells, not just that particular spell. This would make buff spells nearly worthless, so each spellcasting class gains the ability to maintain buff spells without invoking a recharge time. A spellcaster can maintain buff spells with a combined spell level equal to half of their class level. I would worry about this greatly discouraging spellcasters from taking Prestige Classes, but I am not of the opinion that spellcasters need them.

I feel that these rules more closely represent the principle upon which recharge magic is based: stamina at the cost of overall impact. Having fewer levels of spells makes Recharge more meaningfully affect the impact the spellcasters have on combat after casting their best spell and the changes to buffs maintain them as worthwhile options without being complete freebies.
ShinoAburame
02-11-07, 03:49 PM Great post guys, I worry about such rules. Cause like I love Fable for X-Box, but applying magic like in Fable to a tabletop game seems nigh impossible.
Valoy_Muniz
02-12-07, 09:58 AM What we are trying in a war campain is only the wiz (no soc in game) has the recharge system. We will see how this plays out.
Rivelstraz
02-12-07, 06:43 PM I forgot to mention that I'm gonna use Recharge Magic combined with Spell Points in the last game of a campaign in one of my groups. They will replenish magic points (like many action RPGs) with time.
Dungeonrenter
02-12-07, 09:25 PM Recharge is working very well for my game.

Recharge allows you to use every spell in d&d with no adjustment.

Additionally the battles can sometimes be more even. Players can't just come to an encounter and launch their highest level spells 2 or three times in a row. Basically every spell level will only be used once per combat.

On the other hand powers per day are more rare and valuable.

The system helps people that normally horde spells be more effective and have more fun.

It also means the party does not stop to rest just when the action is getting good. Instead most groups go and go and go. This can be a problem if you are not ready for it.

Challenges are not necessarily easier, but attrition just doesn't work. Battles need to be larger in order to feel like a challenge. On the other hand, I have always felt that d&d encounters seemed a little easy.

Secondly, recharge does not make your group any more powerful if your group normally rests once they use their best spells, or right before big battles. If your group spent a lot of time resting to get spells back recharge will help them play for longer without feeling like they need to stop.

I like recharge, its better than Vancian magic. It allows you to play d&d and not spend all your time thinking about what spells the party has left.
JDLail
02-25-07, 02:15 AM We've used recharge for about a year. The biggest problem is that it
adds another level of bookkeeping for the DM. As others have already
pointed out it allows the party to continue playing rather than having
to continually back out of the dungeon. Backing out means the DM
either has to adjust for the Monsters knowing they are likely to be
attacked and by what or ignore it all and look stupid.

Another advantage is that allows for a much wider variety of spells.
Your Cleric can take something else besides buffs and heals.
Eldritch_Lord
02-25-07, 12:38 PM Has anyone had any problems with PCs being fully healed for every encounter, in terms of changing CRs, attrition tactics, or anything else? I'm also looking at the recharge system, but the nigh-unlimited healing is making me a bit wary; less rest time is good, but it looks like this goes too far the other way.
Kedami
02-25-07, 05:37 PM I'm actually using it in a campaign I'm playing in as a Wizard. It seems to be very wastefull if you have a DM like mine who likes to keep adventures short, but we went through a dungeon and I managed to cast Summon Undead or Magic Missile (Or Burning Hands in one case) in almost every room. The only downside is that recharges are very slow for your highest level spells and being level 4 doesn't help the case much. My party's Druid is really usefull with the healing spells too, since we don't have a Cleric.

I also run a campaign for the same group as the DM and have found that if your BBEGs use it, make sure they have plenty of useful lower level spells or plenty of scrolls.
JDLail
02-26-07, 01:07 PM Has anyone had any problems with PCs being fully healed for every encounter, in terms of changing CRs, attrition tactics, or anything else? I'm also looking at the recharge system, but the nigh-unlimited healing is making me a bit wary; less rest time is good, but it looks like this goes too far the other way.

I don't see it as a disadvantage at all. Its easier to plan on the basis that
the party will be fully healed than otherwise.
Mist of Shadows
02-26-07, 09:14 PM I've been using the recharge system for about a year now. My world's arcane spell casters recharge their spells and divine casters don't. It works really well for me. The parties don't have unlimited healing and so aren't fresh each battle. To help priest's out I fold their domain spell into their normal list and they get to cast each domain spell once free. (as well as use their normal slots on them.) They have great combat ability and armor which makes up for having less spells than the wizard.

I'm happy with the type of game it creates. If you don't use recharge magic you should use fatigue rules for the stupid fighters.

I personally think it evens things out for dungeon running and cuts on the paper work. Why does it cut on the paper work? Because you don't have to remember which spells were used up for more than a few minutes.
PonTelon
03-08-07, 10:55 AM In our games, we really never have the problems of spellcasters running out of spells. I know in a current game, they are in a dungeon that they can't rest in(powerful magic) and 3 equal CR battles later, the Sorcerer and the Cleric/Wizard/Geomancer are finally running somewhat low on spells.

I'm working on a modified version of the recharge system that I think has some promise.

Recharge System

Full Casters are treated as +1 "Caster" per level

1/2 Casters(Paladins, Rangers, Hexblades) are +1 "Caster" per two levels.

spell Slots:
For every caster level, the character gets one extra spell slot equal to spell level of 1/2 their caster level. So an 8th level caster gains one level 4 slot. The exception to this is they can never get 10th level spell slots, they simply gain another 9th level spell slot.

Bonus Spells:
Full casters(Sorc, Cleric, Druid,ect) also get +1 spell slot every other level and 3 level 0s per day.

Cool Down:
All spells have a cool down of either their duration or the numbers below, whichever is higher.(See section below for special rules on this with Spontaneous casters)
Full casters: 1d6+1 rounds
Half Casters: 1d8+2 rounds

Prepared Spellcasters:
Normal List of spells known. Each day, they choose to fill their "slots"(with the numbers listed above). All spells known/slots are delayed to "normal". AKA level 7 you still only cast level 3 spells, not 4th. Prepared Spellcasters with a spells known list still get the higher level spells early, but lack the spell slots to actually cast them.

Spontaneous Spellcasters:
Normal lists of spells known. They get their spell slots essentially "blank". When they cast a spell, the approriate slot is used and set on recharge, but the slot is still "blank" and can be used later for any spell. Duration length cooldowns(from spells with long durations) only effect the specific spell being used, not the slot. The spell slot is on a normal cooldown. This also applies to prepared spellcasters who spontaneously cast certain types of spells(like Clerics and Druids)

Special Ruling: Bard
Treated as Spontaneous full caster for cool down. They gain spell lots at levels: 2,3,4,6,7,9,10,12,13,15,16, and 20th.

1
2(1st) +1 slot
3 +1 slot
4(2nd) +1 slot
5
6 +1 slot
7(3rd)+1 slot
8
9 +1 slot
10 (4th) +1 slot
11
12 +1 slot
13(5th)+1 slot
14
15+1 slot
16(6th) +1 slot
17
18
19
20 +1 slot

Special Ruling: Spells Known on 1/2 casters.
Paladins and Rangers get access to 5th level spells, which can be chosen from Cleric and Druid spell lists respectively.

Example: Cleric 6
Slots: 4 1st level, 3 2nd level, 2 3rd level.
In the morning, the cleric decides to prepare Bless, Divine Favor, Bane, and Sanctuary as his four first level spells, and Silence, Shatter, and Hold Person as his second level spells. For his third level spells, he prepares Dispel Magic and Magic Vestment. Before battle, he casts Magic Vestment on his armor and now cannot use that slot for Magic Vestiment for another 6 hours. He can, however, use it for spontaneous cure spells in 1d6+1 rounds. Once battle starts, he casts Bless on himself which uses that spell slot for 6 minutes(except in the case of cure spells, which is 1d6+1 round cooldown). The second round, he casts Cure Light Wounds in place of his Bane slot, making it's cooldown 1d6+1 rounds later.
dan8uillin
03-08-07, 11:28 AM My group tried out recharge spells, and i'm not a fan. We ended up being fully buffed all the time and starting almost every encounter at full health. My fighter got eagle's splendor for no reason all the time, it was kinda ridiculous.
PonTelon
03-08-07, 01:04 PM This is the case that you don't allow them to cast the spells beforehand, or use the rule that I used that the cooldown is the one listed, or the duration, whichever is longer. So if you used Eagle's Splendor on the Sorcerer, then you don't have it available for the Fighter. This does degrade buffs, but buffs are rather powerful in D&D as is anyway.
Harkle
03-09-07, 01:16 AM With ToB I'm considering using recharge magic.

I would use everything as written for spontaneous casters. Prepared casters would have the advantage of having spell slots recharge rather than spells recharge, so the wizard could cast 3 fireballs in a row if he used 3 spell slots to memorize fireball, and each slot recharges as normal.

This method would give prepared and spontaneous casters differant feels and would still be reminicent of how they normally work. My only problem is that my campaign is also Psionics heavy and I can't think of a good way to make psionics work with recharge and keep the feeling of psionics still being very much like they originally functioned.

Edit: Actually after some thinking I'm going to make spells slots significant for everyone. Whenever a spell is cast the appropraite spell slot becomes unsuable as well as the spell until the spell recharges. This has little actual effect beyond limiting metamagic and high level spells as casters generally know fewer spells of a level than they have spell slots for. It also becomes significant when you have spells with long recharge times. I'm also considering doing this with psionics, powers recharge as spontaneous casters and the power points used are unavailable until the power recharges, again doesn't do much unless the player uses a lot of powers with long recharge times or a lot of metapsionics.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShinoAburame 02-10-07, 02:11 AM	I've considerd using the recharge magic over normal spells-per-day system. How good or bad would you say it is? Does it make spellcasters generaly better or worse? Cause i'm looking for something gritty but giving people the footroom to have fun with spells.
Chimaera2000 02-10-07, 05:22 PM	I don't think that it provides a more gritty experience, as fewer limits tend to go against that feel. However, I do think that it's an extremely fun variant. It's quite potent and makes spellcasters more powerful overall, which may be a problem at high-level play where spellcasters are already the strongest classes. I like the balancing factor that you can't simply spam your strongest spells repeatedly. All in all, though, I think that the Tome of Battle system of recovery is the best. Basically, your abilities are based per encounter, but can only be used once unless you spend actions to recover them in combat. I'm just waiting and hoping for WotC to come up with a system that applies this to spellcasting, Overall, I think it's a fun variant that some people may find overpowered. I'm not averse to trying it in a game, though.
Rivelstraz 02-10-07, 07:52 PM	But 90% of ToB maneouvers are plain unusable outside combat, while many many arcane/divine spells are supposed to be used outside combat (although they got their combat use), so I think that a ToB variant wouldn't work with spellcasting overall. The recharse system overpowers casters even more, since it removes (not completely) their only weakness : More encounters a day, less spells casted per encounter. On average, a wizard has to wait just 4.5 rounds to cast his most powerful spell (Almost all offensive spells go for the general table). So it's very possible you can cast a spell every single round without saving anything for the possible second, third and fourth encounter. I'm personally using the same system as Psionics, also introduced in the same chapter than Recharge Magic in Unearthed Arcane. Casters are a bit more powerful, but it's so much easier for new players (or old players with some lack of skill) to understand, use or have success overall. I really hope Vancian system gets fixed in any further edition they want to make. But that's the greatness of this. I can make my own "3.7" edition by fully adding the ToB classes, removing the Vancian system, etc.
Vaelan 02-11-07, 01:55 AM	I have used Recharge, with substantial alterations. First I redesigned the spellcasting classes. With nine levels of spells, Recharge loses a bit of its bite. My spellcasters have seven in total so that casting a spell of their highest level causes an immediate and noticable decrease in the potency of the next effect they throw out. I also changed a lot of the buff spells. They don't scale anywhere near as well, but I added Greater versions that are higher level. This is something that needs to be done regardless of Recharge, though. Lastly, I changed the rules about specific recharges. They are limits on the entire level of spells, not just that particular spell. This would make buff spells nearly worthless, so each spellcasting class gains the ability to maintain buff spells without invoking a recharge time. A spellcaster can maintain buff spells with a combined spell level equal to half of their class level. I would worry about this greatly discouraging spellcasters from taking Prestige Classes, but I am not of the opinion that spellcasters need them. I feel that these rules more closely represent the principle upon which recharge magic is based: stamina at the cost of overall impact. Having fewer levels of spells makes Recharge more meaningfully affect the impact the spellcasters have on combat after casting their best spell and the changes to buffs maintain them as worthwhile options without being complete freebies.
ShinoAburame 02-11-07, 03:49 PM	Great post guys, I worry about such rules. Cause like I love Fable for X-Box, but applying magic like in Fable to a tabletop game seems nigh impossible.
Valoy_Muniz 02-12-07, 09:58 AM	What we are trying in a war campain is only the wiz (no soc in game) has the recharge system. We will see how this plays out.
Rivelstraz 02-12-07, 06:43 PM	I forgot to mention that I'm gonna use Recharge Magic combined with Spell Points in the last game of a campaign in one of my groups. They will replenish magic points (like many action RPGs) with time.
Dungeonrenter 02-12-07, 09:25 PM	Recharge is working very well for my game. Recharge allows you to use every spell in d&d with no adjustment. Additionally the battles can sometimes be more even. Players can't just come to an encounter and launch their highest level spells 2 or three times in a row. Basically every spell level will only be used once per combat. On the other hand powers per day are more rare and valuable. The system helps people that normally horde spells be more effective and have more fun. It also means the party does not stop to rest just when the action is getting good. Instead most groups go and go and go. This can be a problem if you are not ready for it. Challenges are not necessarily easier, but attrition just doesn't work. Battles need to be larger in order to feel like a challenge. On the other hand, I have always felt that d&d encounters seemed a little easy. Secondly, recharge does not make your group any more powerful if your group normally rests once they use their best spells, or right before big battles. If your group spent a lot of time resting to get spells back recharge will help them play for longer without feeling like they need to stop. I like recharge, its better than Vancian magic. It allows you to play d&d and not spend all your time thinking about what spells the party has left.
JDLail 02-25-07, 02:15 AM	We've used recharge for about a year. The biggest problem is that it adds another level of bookkeeping for the DM. As others have already pointed out it allows the party to continue playing rather than having to continually back out of the dungeon. Backing out means the DM either has to adjust for the Monsters knowing they are likely to be attacked and by what or ignore it all and look stupid. Another advantage is that allows for a much wider variety of spells. Your Cleric can take something else besides buffs and heals.
Eldritch_Lord 02-25-07, 12:38 PM	Has anyone had any problems with PCs being fully healed for every encounter, in terms of changing CRs, attrition tactics, or anything else? I'm also looking at the recharge system, but the nigh-unlimited healing is making me a bit wary; less rest time is good, but it looks like this goes too far the other way.
Kedami 02-25-07, 05:37 PM	I'm actually using it in a campaign I'm playing in as a Wizard. It seems to be very wastefull if you have a DM like mine who likes to keep adventures short, but we went through a dungeon and I managed to cast Summon Undead or Magic Missile (Or Burning Hands in one case) in almost every room. The only downside is that recharges are very slow for your highest level spells and being level 4 doesn't help the case much. My party's Druid is really usefull with the healing spells too, since we don't have a Cleric. I also run a campaign for the same group as the DM and have found that if your BBEGs use it, make sure they have plenty of useful lower level spells or plenty of scrolls.
JDLail 02-26-07, 01:07 PM	Has anyone had any problems with PCs being fully healed for every encounter, in terms of changing CRs, attrition tactics, or anything else? I'm also looking at the recharge system, but the nigh-unlimited healing is making me a bit wary; less rest time is good, but it looks like this goes too far the other way. I don't see it as a disadvantage at all. Its easier to plan on the basis that the party will be fully healed than otherwise.
Mist of Shadows 02-26-07, 09:14 PM	I've been using the recharge system for about a year now. My world's arcane spell casters recharge their spells and divine casters don't. It works really well for me. The parties don't have unlimited healing and so aren't fresh each battle. To help priest's out I fold their domain spell into their normal list and they get to cast each domain spell once free. (as well as use their normal slots on them.) They have great combat ability and armor which makes up for having less spells than the wizard. I'm happy with the type of game it creates. If you don't use recharge magic you should use fatigue rules for the stupid fighters. I personally think it evens things out for dungeon running and cuts on the paper work. Why does it cut on the paper work? Because you don't have to remember which spells were used up for more than a few minutes.
PonTelon 03-08-07, 10:55 AM	In our games, we really never have the problems of spellcasters running out of spells. I know in a current game, they are in a dungeon that they can't rest in(powerful magic) and 3 equal CR battles later, the Sorcerer and the Cleric/Wizard/Geomancer are finally running somewhat low on spells. I'm working on a modified version of the recharge system that I think has some promise. Recharge System Full Casters are treated as +1 "Caster" per level 1/2 Casters(Paladins, Rangers, Hexblades) are +1 "Caster" per two levels. spell Slots: For every caster level, the character gets one extra spell slot equal to spell level of 1/2 their caster level. So an 8th level caster gains one level 4 slot. The exception to this is they can never get 10th level spell slots, they simply gain another 9th level spell slot. Bonus Spells: Full casters(Sorc, Cleric, Druid,ect) also get +1 spell slot every other level and 3 level 0s per day. Cool Down: All spells have a cool down of either their duration or the numbers below, whichever is higher.(See section below for special rules on this with Spontaneous casters) Full casters: 1d6+1 rounds Half Casters: 1d8+2 rounds Prepared Spellcasters: Normal List of spells known. Each day, they choose to fill their "slots"(with the numbers listed above). All spells known/slots are delayed to "normal". AKA level 7 you still only cast level 3 spells, not 4th. Prepared Spellcasters with a spells known list still get the higher level spells early, but lack the spell slots to actually cast them. Spontaneous Spellcasters: Normal lists of spells known. They get their spell slots essentially "blank". When they cast a spell, the approriate slot is used and set on recharge, but the slot is still "blank" and can be used later for any spell. Duration length cooldowns(from spells with long durations) only effect the specific spell being used, not the slot. The spell slot is on a normal cooldown. This also applies to prepared spellcasters who spontaneously cast certain types of spells(like Clerics and Druids) Special Ruling: Bard Treated as Spontaneous full caster for cool down. They gain spell lots at levels: 2,3,4,6,7,9,10,12,13,15,16, and 20th. 1 2(1st) +1 slot 3 +1 slot 4(2nd) +1 slot 5 6 +1 slot 7(3rd)+1 slot 8 9 +1 slot 10 (4th) +1 slot 11 12 +1 slot 13(5th)+1 slot 14 15+1 slot 16(6th) +1 slot 17 18 19 20 +1 slot Special Ruling: Spells Known on 1/2 casters. Paladins and Rangers get access to 5th level spells, which can be chosen from Cleric and Druid spell lists respectively. Example: Cleric 6 Slots: 4 1st level, 3 2nd level, 2 3rd level. In the morning, the cleric decides to prepare Bless, Divine Favor, Bane, and Sanctuary as his four first level spells, and Silence, Shatter, and Hold Person as his second level spells. For his third level spells, he prepares Dispel Magic and Magic Vestment. Before battle, he casts Magic Vestment on his armor and now cannot use that slot for Magic Vestiment for another 6 hours. He can, however, use it for spontaneous cure spells in 1d6+1 rounds. Once battle starts, he casts Bless on himself which uses that spell slot for 6 minutes(except in the case of cure spells, which is 1d6+1 round cooldown). The second round, he casts Cure Light Wounds in place of his Bane slot, making it's cooldown 1d6+1 rounds later.
dan8uillin 03-08-07, 11:28 AM	My group tried out recharge spells, and i'm not a fan. We ended up being fully buffed all the time and starting almost every encounter at full health. My fighter got eagle's splendor for no reason all the time, it was kinda ridiculous.
PonTelon 03-08-07, 01:04 PM	This is the case that you don't allow them to cast the spells beforehand, or use the rule that I used that the cooldown is the one listed, or the duration, whichever is longer. So if you used Eagle's Splendor on the Sorcerer, then you don't have it available for the Fighter. This does degrade buffs, but buffs are rather powerful in D&D as is anyway.
Harkle 03-09-07, 01:16 AM	With ToB I'm considering using recharge magic. I would use everything as written for spontaneous casters. Prepared casters would have the advantage of having spell slots recharge rather than spells recharge, so the wizard could cast 3 fireballs in a row if he used 3 spell slots to memorize fireball, and each slot recharges as normal. This method would give prepared and spontaneous casters differant feels and would still be reminicent of how they normally work. My only problem is that my campaign is also Psionics heavy and I can't think of a good way to make psionics work with recharge and keep the feeling of psionics still being very much like they originally functioned. Edit: Actually after some thinking I'm going to make spells slots significant for everyone. Whenever a spell is cast the appropraite spell slot becomes unsuable as well as the spell until the spell recharges. This has little actual effect beyond limiting metamagic and high level spells as casters generally know fewer spells of a level than they have spell slots for. It also becomes significant when you have spells with long recharge times. I'm also considering doing this with psionics, powers recharge as spontaneous casters and the power points used are unavailable until the power recharges, again doesn't do much unless the player uses a lot of powers with long recharge times or a lot of metapsionics.