Redone Social Skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Redone Social Skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Krusk
02-12-08, 06:42 PM Have you ever played a bard with +X bluff.
Have you ever had said bard have a low wisdom.
Have you ever been tricked by a level 1 commoner who rolled well on his bluff check while you rolled poorly on your sense motive? Kills your image of a trickster dosn't it?
Ever been in a situation as a DM where your players have +X diplomacy and simply convert any intelligent enemy into an ally? No save, no diffrence for how powerful the character is. Simply player rolls die, all enemies walk away.
Ever been in a party with the diplomancer above?
Ever been the tough as nails fighter with max intimidate, who is as easily intimidated as a small girl?
Ever had high charisma (force of personality) yet you are convinced to do whatever anyone with a high enough bluff/diplomace/intimidate check says?

Ive been in all of these situations on a few occasions and finally I got tired of it. So I decided to make an attempt to fix it.

Changes made to the following skills.

Bluff- Bluff is now an opposed check, with the initiator of the bluff receiving modifiers as normal from the phb based on the conditions. It can be opposed by an opponent's sense motive check and grants a +2 synergy bonus to sense motive used against bluff's.

Diplomacy- Diplomacy is now an opposed check, with the initiator of the skill receiving modifiers as normal from the phb based on the conditions. It can be opposed by an opponent's sense motive check and grants a +2 synergy bonus to sense motive used against Diplomacy.

Intimidate- Intimidate is now an opposed check, with the initiator of the skill receiving modifiers as normal from the phb based on the conditions. It can be opposed by an opponent's sense motive check and grants a +2 bonus to sense motive used against Intimidate.

Sense Motive- This skill gains additional uses to those existing in the phb. In addition it can be used to counter any of the following skills; bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate.
Krusk
02-12-08, 06:46 PM notes

- yes i know the fighter has good reason to be intimidated by the young girl if she turns out to be a druid.

- This gives undue power to sense motive, but until these changes i rarely saw anyone take many ranks in it.

- It does not fix the "i have max ranks in diplomacy you are fanatical" problem, but it does help to work on the problem.
Tequila_Sunrise
02-12-08, 09:03 PM Well scaling these skill DCs is definately a good thing, but I don't really like the idea of replacing Sense Motive with a "defensive" other skill check. For example, there are plenty of liars IRL who are as easy to fool as they are to believe. That's been my experience, anyway.

TS
Krusk
02-12-08, 11:19 PM Well scaling these skill DCs is definately a good thing, but I don't really like the idea of replacing Sense Motive with a "defensive" other skill check. For example, there are plenty of liars IRL who are as easy to fool as they are to believe. That's been my experience, anyway.

TS

Is your example about liars being easily tricked, why you don't like sense motive as a blanket social defense skills? I'm not really seeing that one, if you could go farther/provide another. Guess I'm not seeing how the two are related. Seems more for why bluff shouldn't be able to counter bluff, but in favor of a blanket social defense skill.

When I asked people what they thought a skill called sense motive should do, no one replied with "let you know if others are bluffing or not" but most people said something to the effect of "tell you what someone else is thinking".

With sense motive as a blanket social skill it lets you know if someone is lieing, or where their true motives lie. For example you might see why he is saying X when diplomancing and realize that that is not what you want but he is convincing you over to his side. Thus countering his diplomacy with your own personal logic. "he wants me to give him a discount because he dosnt feel like paying as much, not because i am charging too much or he dosn't have the money"

it also enables the strong willed individual, someone you can't talk of doing X, intimidate into backing away, or trick out of their belongings. They might not be able to do any to you, but you can't get them with it either.
Tequila_Sunrise
02-13-08, 02:29 AM Sorry for the confusion. What I mean is, I like Sense Motive being the universal social defense skill and expanding that to include diplomacy. What I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is the idea of also being able to realise when someone is bluffing you by making your own bluff check. Similar with intimidate and diplomacy. Being good at persuading others does not at all mean that you yourself are harder to persuade, in my experience.

TS
Krusk
02-13-08, 08:38 AM ok, got it now thanks for the clearing up.

My thought was expanding the bluff skill to encompase "trained in the ways of lieing, both to others and how others do it." Someone specializing in bluff might make you a good kings advisor, as you know exactly what the tell signs of a lie are.

So if you wanted a good bluffer who is gulliable just opt to use sense motive, or not to roll.

Sub bluff for diplomacy and intimidate as needed. They use the same logic.

-side note, perhapse sense motive should recieve a -2 if being used over any of the main three with their respective skill. But it does already not get a synergy bonus from anything, which is already hurting it.

-perhapse another change that makes sense giving a +2 bonus to sense motive if you have 5 ranks in bluff for countering bluffs. the same for the others. And then taking away the abiltity to counter bluff with bluff.
Asurya
02-13-08, 09:14 AM quote Tequila_Sunrise: Being good at persuading others does not at all mean that you yourself are harder to persuade, in my experience.
except that (IRL anyway), when you learn how to convince someone, you learn "tricks", "speech pattern" to do the job.
You then are able to recognize when someone use the same tricks against you (hence the Diplo vs Diplo being reasonable to me).

Intimidate is another matter though, as primarily used for torture in game I'm in, I fail to see how knowing (even exactly) what your foe is up to and how he will break you, give you any defence against it (arguably, Sense motive is of little use here too)

And I side with TS for the "lying to a liar" thing, Bluff should not be able to counteract Bluff IMO.
Krusk
02-13-08, 11:55 AM intimidation is easy

"im big and scary do what i say" rolls a total 25
"Countered, im bigger and scarier" rolls a total of 34

Bluff to counter act is harder to pull off but uses similar logic as to what you uses in diplomacy.

As a side note what did people think of the idea that they cannot counter themself, but instead provide a +2 synergy bonus to sense motive when you use sense motive vs the one you have ranks in.
Tequila_Sunrise
02-13-08, 02:34 PM As a side note what did people think of the idea that they cannot counter themself, but instead provide a +2 synergy bonus to sense motive when you use sense motive vs the one you have ranks in.

I don't like synergy bonuses in general, but if you're using them than yes, I think this I makes perfect sense.
Krusk
02-13-08, 03:47 PM Benefit of Dming a diffrent system right now. i can edit my houserules immediatly instead of waiting until the end of a campaign arc/quest.
Master-of-Puppets
05-21-08, 05:38 PM there is a point about bluff vs bluff, and diplomacy, thart called politics, I want something and Im selling my ideas(bluff) and using some arguing(diplomacy) so you roll sense motive (to see what do I really want) and then you sell me my ideas (bluff) and use some logic of your own (diplomacy)

I worked some months as a comercial, you really learn like a ton of comercial triks in like a week, and since then, I can see the comarcial tricks of others like cristal, sometimes I even go like dont try that, Ive used it and wont work

but for real social contest you would need to make some fight sistem with a couple psible manouveurs and countermanouveurs, like ignoring someones logic and try simply substiuing it with your own, or my favorite, use someones logic agains them taking it to extremes

there are some bluffs/diplomacy that would actually be atacks against will, like ofering water to the thirsty, they would be compelled to do almost anything you told them to just with the proper bait (like women do with sex, they make you believe youl get something at the end of the night and get you to be nice with them do things for them and... there is no real agreement, they let you think youll get a kiss in the end but its not like a comercial arangement, just some bluff/diplomacy - called seduction)

the same could be adapted to other situations,

Im a big sorcerer, I can protect you, why dont you fetch this info for me?, wed be friends

is not info for protection, is the fact that you seek protection, I might be just some 2ēlvl bard by the way and disaper just afterwards
Krusk
05-21-08, 08:46 PM No offense, but what did all of that mean?
ToeSama
05-22-08, 01:21 PM If you're worried about intimidate tactics, why not make intimidate iteself a Mind Affecting Fear Effect. There's plenty of things that are immune/grant immunity to those.
Rhialto
05-23-08, 03:17 PM As someone said on another thread, sometimes beating DC 9000 on your Diplomacy check simply means the BBEG says, "I like your style. I'll kill you last."

Diplomacy isn't convert friends to enemies. It's not charm person. At best it'll get them to do something that they might consider a reasonable action anyway, had it occurred to them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Krusk 02-12-08, 06:42 PM	Have you ever played a bard with +X bluff. Have you ever had said bard have a low wisdom. Have you ever been tricked by a level 1 commoner who rolled well on his bluff check while you rolled poorly on your sense motive? Kills your image of a trickster dosn't it? Ever been in a situation as a DM where your players have +X diplomacy and simply convert any intelligent enemy into an ally? No save, no diffrence for how powerful the character is. Simply player rolls die, all enemies walk away. Ever been in a party with the diplomancer above? Ever been the tough as nails fighter with max intimidate, who is as easily intimidated as a small girl? Ever had high charisma (force of personality) yet you are convinced to do whatever anyone with a high enough bluff/diplomace/intimidate check says? Ive been in all of these situations on a few occasions and finally I got tired of it. So I decided to make an attempt to fix it. Changes made to the following skills. Bluff- Bluff is now an opposed check, with the initiator of the bluff receiving modifiers as normal from the phb based on the conditions. It can be opposed by an opponent's sense motive check and grants a +2 synergy bonus to sense motive used against bluff's. Diplomacy- Diplomacy is now an opposed check, with the initiator of the skill receiving modifiers as normal from the phb based on the conditions. It can be opposed by an opponent's sense motive check and grants a +2 synergy bonus to sense motive used against Diplomacy. Intimidate- Intimidate is now an opposed check, with the initiator of the skill receiving modifiers as normal from the phb based on the conditions. It can be opposed by an opponent's sense motive check and grants a +2 bonus to sense motive used against Intimidate. Sense Motive- This skill gains additional uses to those existing in the phb. In addition it can be used to counter any of the following skills; bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate.
Krusk 02-12-08, 06:46 PM	notes - yes i know the fighter has good reason to be intimidated by the young girl if she turns out to be a druid. - This gives undue power to sense motive, but until these changes i rarely saw anyone take many ranks in it. - It does not fix the "i have max ranks in diplomacy you are fanatical" problem, but it does help to work on the problem.
Tequila_Sunrise 02-12-08, 09:03 PM	Well scaling these skill DCs is definately a good thing, but I don't really like the idea of replacing Sense Motive with a "defensive" other skill check. For example, there are plenty of liars IRL who are as easy to fool as they are to believe. That's been my experience, anyway. TS
Krusk 02-12-08, 11:19 PM	Well scaling these skill DCs is definately a good thing, but I don't really like the idea of replacing Sense Motive with a "defensive" other skill check. For example, there are plenty of liars IRL who are as easy to fool as they are to believe. That's been my experience, anyway. TS Is your example about liars being easily tricked, why you don't like sense motive as a blanket social defense skills? I'm not really seeing that one, if you could go farther/provide another. Guess I'm not seeing how the two are related. Seems more for why bluff shouldn't be able to counter bluff, but in favor of a blanket social defense skill. When I asked people what they thought a skill called sense motive should do, no one replied with "let you know if others are bluffing or not" but most people said something to the effect of "tell you what someone else is thinking". With sense motive as a blanket social skill it lets you know if someone is lieing, or where their true motives lie. For example you might see why he is saying X when diplomancing and realize that that is not what you want but he is convincing you over to his side. Thus countering his diplomacy with your own personal logic. "he wants me to give him a discount because he dosnt feel like paying as much, not because i am charging too much or he dosn't have the money" it also enables the strong willed individual, someone you can't talk of doing X, intimidate into backing away, or trick out of their belongings. They might not be able to do any to you, but you can't get them with it either.
Tequila_Sunrise 02-13-08, 02:29 AM	Sorry for the confusion. What I mean is, I like Sense Motive being the universal social defense skill and expanding that to include diplomacy. What I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is the idea of also being able to realise when someone is bluffing you by making your own bluff check. Similar with intimidate and diplomacy. Being good at persuading others does not at all mean that you yourself are harder to persuade, in my experience. TS
Krusk 02-13-08, 08:38 AM	ok, got it now thanks for the clearing up. My thought was expanding the bluff skill to encompase "trained in the ways of lieing, both to others and how others do it." Someone specializing in bluff might make you a good kings advisor, as you know exactly what the tell signs of a lie are. So if you wanted a good bluffer who is gulliable just opt to use sense motive, or not to roll. Sub bluff for diplomacy and intimidate as needed. They use the same logic. -side note, perhapse sense motive should recieve a -2 if being used over any of the main three with their respective skill. But it does already not get a synergy bonus from anything, which is already hurting it. -perhapse another change that makes sense giving a +2 bonus to sense motive if you have 5 ranks in bluff for countering bluffs. the same for the others. And then taking away the abiltity to counter bluff with bluff.
Asurya 02-13-08, 09:14 AM	quote Tequila_Sunrise: Being good at persuading others does not at all mean that you yourself are harder to persuade, in my experience. except that (IRL anyway), when you learn how to convince someone, you learn "tricks", "speech pattern" to do the job. You then are able to recognize when someone use the same tricks against you (hence the Diplo vs Diplo being reasonable to me). Intimidate is another matter though, as primarily used for torture in game I'm in, I fail to see how knowing (even exactly) what your foe is up to and how he will break you, give you any defence against it (arguably, Sense motive is of little use here too) And I side with TS for the "lying to a liar" thing, Bluff should not be able to counteract Bluff IMO.
Krusk 02-13-08, 11:55 AM	intimidation is easy "im big and scary do what i say" rolls a total 25 "Countered, im bigger and scarier" rolls a total of 34 Bluff to counter act is harder to pull off but uses similar logic as to what you uses in diplomacy. As a side note what did people think of the idea that they cannot counter themself, but instead provide a +2 synergy bonus to sense motive when you use sense motive vs the one you have ranks in.
Tequila_Sunrise 02-13-08, 02:34 PM	As a side note what did people think of the idea that they cannot counter themself, but instead provide a +2 synergy bonus to sense motive when you use sense motive vs the one you have ranks in. I don't like synergy bonuses in general, but if you're using them than yes, I think this I makes perfect sense.
Krusk 02-13-08, 03:47 PM	Benefit of Dming a diffrent system right now. i can edit my houserules immediatly instead of waiting until the end of a campaign arc/quest.
Master-of-Puppets 05-21-08, 05:38 PM	there is a point about bluff vs bluff, and diplomacy, thart called politics, I want something and Im selling my ideas(bluff) and using some arguing(diplomacy) so you roll sense motive (to see what do I really want) and then you sell me my ideas (bluff) and use some logic of your own (diplomacy) I worked some months as a comercial, you really learn like a ton of comercial triks in like a week, and since then, I can see the comarcial tricks of others like cristal, sometimes I even go like dont try that, Ive used it and wont work but for real social contest you would need to make some fight sistem with a couple psible manouveurs and countermanouveurs, like ignoring someones logic and try simply substiuing it with your own, or my favorite, use someones logic agains them taking it to extremes there are some bluffs/diplomacy that would actually be atacks against will, like ofering water to the thirsty, they would be compelled to do almost anything you told them to just with the proper bait (like women do with sex, they make you believe youl get something at the end of the night and get you to be nice with them do things for them and... there is no real agreement, they let you think youll get a kiss in the end but its not like a comercial arangement, just some bluff/diplomacy - called seduction) the same could be adapted to other situations, Im a big sorcerer, I can protect you, why dont you fetch this info for me?, wed be friends is not info for protection, is the fact that you seek protection, I might be just some 2ēlvl bard by the way and disaper just afterwards
Krusk 05-21-08, 08:46 PM	No offense, but what did all of that mean?
ToeSama 05-22-08, 01:21 PM	If you're worried about intimidate tactics, why not make intimidate iteself a Mind Affecting Fear Effect. There's plenty of things that are immune/grant immunity to those.
Rhialto 05-23-08, 03:17 PM	As someone said on another thread, sometimes beating DC 9000 on your Diplomacy check simply means the BBEG says, "I like your style. I'll kill you last." Diplomacy isn't convert friends to enemies. It's not charm person. At best it'll get them to do something that they might consider a reasonable action anyway, had it occurred to them.