Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TúrintheMormegil 06-22-05, 09:18 AM	For my campaign I will remove alignment. This thread is to discuss the implications of that, not for dicussing whether removing alignment is a good idea. Here's what I have so far: Players can put an alignment on their sheets if they want, but I will completely ignore it whatever it says. Of course, I do require that the players make characters that can work as a group. Paladins can worship any deity (or none at all). They don't have to behave lawful good, but they do have to behave in accordance with a Code of Conduct, either the one briefly described in the PHB or a self-made one, subject to the DM's approval (actually I have no paladin-PCs, so I will be the only one designing alternative CoCs for NPC-pallys). As both the deities and the pallys have no alignment, any deity can (and will) have paladins. Spells and domains that rely on alignment are removed. Spells that have alignment-tags have these removed (or are entirely removed if they become unplayable), spells such as animate dead remain and can be cast by all clerics. To replace detect evil on the cleric list (but more importantly for the paladin) I have two candidates, detect hostile intent (published on these boards in the past somewhere, shame on me I didn't copy it) and detect devotion (made by me, subject to possible revision): Detect Devotion Divination Level: Clr 1, Pal1 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 60 ft. Area: Cone-shaped emanation Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You can sense how devoted detected creatures are to any (unnamed) causes they are affiliated with. The spell detects only the strongest devotion of any particular creature. Causes include (but are not limited to): a religion, an organization and personal aims and goals. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject. 1st Round: Presence or absence of living creatures with at least 3 points of Intelligence. For the purpose of this spell, every creature capable of rational thinking is assumed to possess at least a certain minimum amount of devotion. 2nd Round: Number of creatures in the area and the aura strength of the most devoted creature present. If the strongest aura’s strength is at least one step higher than your own aura of devotion and its HD or level of the aura’s source is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends. 3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location. Aura Strength: An aura of devotion’s strength depends on the devotion of the detected creature. It can be either faint (for non-devoted creatures), moderate (for somewhat devoted creatures) or strong (for very devoted creatures). The strength of the aura of devotion of any particular creature is completely at the DM’s discretion. Each round, you can turn to detect devotion in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it. Aura’s of devotion do not linger. Possibly I will let paladins choose between the two, and I can tell you that detect devotion would be much more useful in the campaign as I see it. I do not know yet if and how I will replace smite evil. Creatures don't have alignments either (not even angels and demons and devils), but their behavior will still be generally based on the alignment line in their description (except no "always" alignments: there are always exceptions, even among dragons, angels, demons and devils). The same basically goes for deities, but in this case I have the dogma's to go by so I don't have to rely on their alignment alone: Vecna is still about keeping secrets, but he may not always be evil, and there is not as much consensus about the goodness or evilness of the deities as in a regular campaign (though the average human farmer will perceive Pelor as "good" and Hextor as "evil", there are also people who perceive it as the other way around, most orcs for example will perceive Gruumsh as the epitome of "good", i.e. how one should behave). I don't think this is a complete treatment and I would like to hear some comments on how I have pulled this off as well as additions or suggestions as to what subjects I have missed. Looking forward to what could be an interesting discussion, Túrin Edit: This is copied from page two, where I have posted my current view on the topics discussed in this thread (mostly the paladin): Hey everyone, Thanks for all your replies. They have been very helpful in getting a good view on the scale and consequences of the changes I am trying to implement here. I think I have made my mind up now: -Paladins will lose the detect evil spell-like ability useable at will in favour of a new spell-like ability, also useable at will. This will be called detect emotions or something along those lines. It will give you the general emotional state (hate, anger, uncaring, politely interested, happy, sad) the subject it is in and will otherwise work mostly like detect evil (including taking three rounds to get useful results). This ability will not detect creatures the paladin isn't already aware of (to prevent abuse that violates the flavour of the ability and my campaign). Detect devotion is out. -The smite evil-ability will lose its "evil"-designation: a paladin can smite anyone he perceives as evil, unless they are a member of a church or organization the paladin is also a member of (not counting infiltration missions), in which case it doesn't work. I will likely require the paladin's player to explain what the NPC has done to deserve being smitten (which is a step further than just being worthy of a beating: a paladin can use his sword against a street thug who just had a bad youth, but not his smite ability). I'm not sure about this last issue as it requires lots of judgment calls from the DM. -Any spell or ability that relies heavily on alignment will be removed. I may have to replace a few of those I haven't considered yet, but I'll worry about that later. Protection from chaos/evil/good/law will be removed in favour of a generic protection spell that protects against any summoned creature (but not against anything else). I may also add one or more new AC-boosting spells. -Alignment-based damage reduction will remain. As far as I know, this damage reduction is possessed only by outsiders. Outsiders and planar travel will probably be rare in my campaign, but I will account for them in the following way: DR/evil will be renamed DR/demonic and the evil subtype will be renamed the demonic subtype (regardless of whether the creature is a demon or a devil). It is possessed by angels and the like and is bypassed by creatures of the demonic subtype as well as unholy weapons, which are now called demonic weapons. DR/good will be renamed DR/angelic and the good subtype will be renamed the angelic subtype. It is possessed by demons and devils and is bypassed by creatures of the angelic subtype as well as holy weapons, which are now called angelic weapons. Also, the align weapon-spell (a 2nd-level cleric spell) will allow a cleric to make weapons angelic or demonic instead of good- or evil-aligned. I'm not sure if it is relevant, but lawful and chaotic damage reduction, subtype and weapons will have the same treatment (though I won't change the names here I think). I hope to have left the system unchanged where I could and applied reasonable change where necessary. The paladin is intended to be slightly more powerful through his more generic smite-ability, which is balanced by the weaker (I think) detect emotions. Please tell me what you think or bring up new points that should be considered when removing alignment (I'm sure I haven't covered everything yet). Check out my campaign setting thread for my implementation of this (see link in sig). Thanks! :tiphat: Túrin
Cymraegmorgan 06-22-05, 09:35 AM	Since three different class features of the Paladin are useless in your campaign, you might think about dumping the entire class. Have you discussed this with your player? It seems like an awfully big change to make without player input. I know the Paladin player in my group would probably find another DM if I did such a thing, she being big on Smiting Evil.
TúrintheMormegil 06-22-05, 09:45 AM	I'm afraid you have missed something in my post: (actually I have no paladin-PCs, so I will be the only one designing alternative CoCs for NPC-pallys) There will be no paladin-PCs so I will probably not suffer from any complaints when I start modifying the class. Otherwise, yes, I have discussed this with my players. They all agreed removing alignment (especially the detect evil-spell) would make a campaign centered on roleplaying, politics and grey shades of good and bad behavior much more interesting. Detect evil would just spoil so many good "sense motive" encounters (not as in "roll a skill check" but as in "extrapolate from my roleplaying what the NPC is up to"). The players also seemed to like my detect devotion-spell, though it hasn't occured in-game yet. Btw, what's the third class feature I'm taking away from the paladin? As far as I can see, I am removing only detect evil (but replacing it with something quite similar though slightly less useful I suppose) and smite evil (for which I am looking for a good substitute). It has been suggested to replace it with a smite nonbeliever or smite [creature type] but these seem a little limited compared to smite evil, while a general smite-ability seems to be stretching it. So what do you think? Túrin
Cymraegmorgan 06-22-05, 09:59 AM	Try amping up the Lay on Hands in exchange for Aura of Good(this is the third class feature I mentioned) and Detect Evil. Let them keep the Smite ability, but allow it to work on anyone who does not follow their deity/Code.
TúrintheMormegil 06-22-05, 10:01 AM	What do you mean by "amping"?
Gilean 06-22-05, 10:23 AM	Amplifying, probably. And aura of good is a class feature of power level equal to orc blood, or some such. In other words, it doesn't modify charcter's power level to one direction or another. I think you should adapt the stance of paladins being zealots of one power or another. Allow zealots of deities, zealots of elements (or lords thereof), etc. Replace smite with power depending on patron power, which is a little bit of flavour, if you ask me.
Ricohard_Draconis 06-22-05, 10:31 AM	you could look at arcana unearthed and the champion core class, both as a D20 world that does away with allignment and a paladinial class that doesn't have an allignment restriction simply a code.
StormKnight 06-22-05, 12:42 PM	"Detect Hostile Intent" may be even more problematic than "Detect Evil". Forget any plot or incident involving betrayal or taking someone off gaurd. Even if the person is essentially good and has been coerced into betraying you, that's probably still "Hostile Intent". Maybe you should just drop those detection spells? Or maybe make something it a little more concrete - maybe "Detect Emotion", which you can pick a certain emotion when you cast it. So it can tell you if someone is angry, or nervous, or happy. But that's a lot less specific. You might know the NPC is angry, but not whether that's at you personally or just because he's having to work on what's supposed to be his day off.
Cymraegmorgan 06-22-05, 08:50 PM	What do you mean by "amping"? I mean you increase the benefits of Lay on Hands skill to balance what you are changing. Make it double(or triple) the Paladin level times her CHA bonus. Aside from the Paladin issue(an obvious non-issue for your campaign), the removal of alignment from the game has one HUGE benefit to anyone who has spent time on these boards. Too many games seem to go sour because a DM or player reacts badly to another player's concept of alignment. Remove alignment, remove a multitude of problems. Yours should be an interesting change of direction, and I, for one, will be interested to hear how your group fares. :)
TúrintheMormegil 06-23-05, 08:19 AM	I agree with StormKnight: detect hostile intent is out. Still, opposed to what Cymraegmorgan said, it is an issue with what I replace it. When I still played with alignment, acknowledgement of a paladin's ability to detect absolute (as opposed to relative, circumstance-based) evil had a major influence on the way people treated good and evil. Paladins might be rare, but there would be enough that it would be difficult to hide your evil nature in a generally good town (let alone in court). Now, the ability that will replace detect evil (if any) as an unlimited spell-like ability of the paladin will probably also be very important to how the world works, as people (especially those with bad intentions) will take this possibility into account. Therefore, it is of some consequence to the development of my campaign what the paladin can and can't do. So what do people think of detect devotion? Túrin PS for detailed reports of "how my group fares", I refer to the Democracy?!-thread. In the index, you will find references to reports of all the sessions I have played until now without using alignment.
Eliza_Stormwhisper 06-23-05, 09:19 AM	Sounds good to me. My next game probably won't include alignment.
lostone 06-23-05, 10:39 AM	I've been considering dropping alignment for a long time, at least for one game. You've put more thought into it than I have, and I like what you have come up with. Let us know how it works out, I am very curious. :)
Sir Todd 06-23-05, 11:01 AM	I like this a lot. Sounds a lot like Ravenloft (where they only removed the good/evil detection abilities) but on a more grand scale. I would replace alignment with something. Perhaps a paragraph by the player on his characters personality. This is open ended and non restrictive, while still allowing GMs to have some idea of the kind of hero your making. Is a generic Smite ability bad? They only get 1 use per day (hardly unbalancing). It would make Smite a little nicer. Even Rage is better than the unlimited smite. I don't like Detect Devotion... all it amounts to is a generic detect all creatures spell. In this case you need to replace 'evil' with something similar but not unbalanced. I like the detect emotions spell suggested. You could then magically sense for things like anger, love, hate, ect. It both promotes roleplaying, as it forces you the think about those issues: You detect for hate and find one target from beyond the next door. Now you know a little about one of the creatures in the next room without breaking the game. It makes it easier to roleplay with that target (you may try to figure out why he is hate filled-requiring actual dialog), while not giving any big combat advantage. It also makes paladins nice during an interogation or diplomatic meeting. Think Jedi for in game effects "I sense an unusual amount of fear for something as trivial as this trade dispute.". It turns paladins into empaths. Aura of Good was only used in alignment detection type abilities... delete it completely. Also certain spells might be more usefull now. Protection from Evil... becomes simply Protection granting you bonuses against all summoned creatures not just evil ones. Although it may need a bit of other work to balance it.
the_narrator 06-23-05, 09:02 PM	to not totally nerf paladins, make smite work like the shadowbane inquisitor's smite, where it works not on things of evil alignment, but on those the inquisitor judges to be evil.
justin_podur 06-24-05, 01:48 PM	This is fascinating. I also have serious problems with alignment, but decided to try to make it work, since it is so embedded in the game. We just sort of relax it in our campaigns. I hadn't seriously thought about trying to work without it, but this really looks like it has possibilities. Using detect emotions instead of detect alignment, smiting enemies instead of 'evil'. Very good! Thank you.
CryoSilver 06-24-05, 09:14 PM	I also find this intriguing. Simce adopting the use of Sanity in my game, several of my friends (gamers and non-gamers familiar with the idea) have all said I ought consider dropping alignment. I haven't yet, but I have relaxed restrictions somewhat. This is demonstrated most by the use of the shadowbane inquisitor, an excellent "ends justify the means" type. In my game, I have replaced gods with semi-divine incarnations of each domain, and the result is a multitude of belief sytems and moral ambiguities. Sort of like the real world, but with fireballs. If you want to remove alignment, you should probably consider replacing it with something that would somewhat fill the niche, like Sanity ot Taint, even reputation, but that's just my opinion.
TwistedShadow 06-25-05, 12:50 PM	Ok here is An idea for adjustment to paladin's abilities In place of Smite Evil you could name it, Rightous Smite and Give it the conditions That it works just like smite evil but Functions on those the paladin beleives are evil (since you are using the persception of good and evil) this should be governed By something that the paladin can detect or has witnessed. (ie. the Paladin witnesses an inquisitor of somekind torturing people to get confessions. Smite away sir Paladin!) I don't know about detect evil though
totoro 06-26-05, 03:05 AM	You could take out alignment except for paladins. They could cast "Detect anyone who would have been evil if there was such a designation" at will (Detect Evil, for short). It's kind of like detect devotion, but only for those who are devoted to evil.
Xeviat-DM 06-26-05, 03:40 AM	Not to take over your thread, but you might be interested in using my Templar class. It is a generic paladin type for any alignment. To make them unique, they do gain cleric domains, and in my game I've altered some of the domains (lay on hands is healing domain, and turn undead is sun domain). If you'd like, I can send you a copy of it (an old draft is in my signature).
Mind Rogue 06-26-05, 09:35 PM	One idea on how to replace the smite evil and detect evil abilities is for each paladin to designate some organization or other group or ideal as 'infidels' or whatnot. Then the paladin only has the ability to detect and smite members of this group. For instance, if you have two opposing churches, your paladin might select members of the other church to be infidels. His detect infidel ability would reveal members who a consider themselves to be part of that church, and he could use smite infidel to cleanse them from the gene pool. Likewise, you could also create another spell to detect members of your own group (detect faithful or something like that). This then allows you to replace the alignment domains with a generic "faith" domain and many of the alignment based spells, such as holy smite or unholy blight with faith-based spells, such as a smite infidel spell (not to be confused with the paladin ability). This spell would harm infidels, ignore members of your faith, and deal partial damage to innocent bystanders.
Plateau Child 06-27-05, 11:56 AM	I dont think the game wold be as much fun without the alignments. I like knowing there is plenty of evil out there to smite.
Mind Rogue 06-27-05, 03:50 PM	For my campaign I will remove alignment. This thread is to discuss the implications of that, not for dicussing whether removing alignment is a good idea. Here's what I have so far: Let's stay on topic here, Plateau Child. Turin specifically said he does not want to discuss whether removing alignment is a good idea. The thing I completely forgot about before, and to which I have yet to come up with a satisfactory fix for, is the DR/alignment factor. If you get rid of alignment, you essentially need to get rid of holy and similar weapon properties, since these weapons won't deal any extra damage against evil creatures, because there won't be any. Therefore, you also need to get rid of the alignment DRs. For demons and devils, you can replace it with a strict DR/cold iron and DR/silver, respectfully, possibly throwing in "OR magic" for the less powerful ones and "AND magic" for the more powerful ones. However, other creatures, such as slaad, inevitables, and celestials don't have such specific materials associated with them. Silver or cold iron might still be good choices for slaad and celestials, and adamantine against inevitables, but it still requires some tweeking, and it might be worth considering creating some alternative element to affect these creatures. Alternatively, all of the alignments could be generallized as DR/divine, and all of these creatures' natural weapons are treated as being "divine" for the purposes of overcoming DR, which means, among other things, that the Blood War will become immediately bloodier, since the lemurs and dretches can hurt each other, as can a marilith against a pit fiend. Then a special weapon property could be created that makes the weapon divine-aligned, and either adds a flat 1d6 damage or 2d6 against infidels (as per my last post).
weasel fierce 06-27-05, 10:10 PM	D&D works pretty well without alignments. FOr things that depend on them, basically just change "evil" to "enemy". Alternatively, simply assume that "evil" is reserved for things that are purely and completely despicably evil.
Gilean 06-28-05, 03:03 AM	The DRs can be handled (somewhat) by other special matrerials/enchantments. These should be fairly campanig-specific. One way is to simply do away with most celestials or heavily reconstruct them.
TúrintheMormegil 06-28-05, 07:17 AM	Hey everyone. Good to see so many people are interested. I'll reply to your suggestions/ideas/questions one at a time. A general note first: the alignment removal also automatically includes alignment-auras, including the paladin's aura of good. I do not think this ability is worth enough to look for a replacement. @Sir Todd: As for having players declare their personality, my players usually write biographies for their characters, including a personality-description. After a few sessions, I start holding them to their previous actions by using questions in the form of: "if in situation A you did B, why did you not do B again in situation C, they were quite similar weren't they?" or more general: "are you sure this action is in line with your character?" I am not yet sure if this is enough to replace alignment, but at the moment I have no plans for a replacement system. @the_narrator: so far, this seems to be my best option for replacing the smite-ability. See also under "@Mind Rogue". @justin_podur: and thanks to you too for your encouraging words! @CryoSilver: like I said, I do not have a replacement system (yet). Reputation as a concept, however, has the potential to become a decisive factor in my current campaign. @totoro: your suggestion seems to imply that nothing really changes except the names. My removing alignment is based on the idea that the concepts of good and evil do not reflect human personality well enough. I am at the point where I can no longer decide whether a given (N)PC would be good or evil were I to still use normal alignment. @Xeviat-DM: I am interested in your class. I sent you a PM. @Plateau Child: what s/he said. *points at Mind Rogue's post* @Mind Rogue: it seems that I have basically two options in replacing the detect evil and smite evil abilities. Either I let the paladin smite basically anything he would like to smite, as TwistedShadow and the_narrator suggested, or I devise a system reminiscent of the favored enemy, as you and others suggested. The former seems to make the paladin slightly more powerful, and I lean to that one right now, while the latter seems to weaken him somewhat (a bit too much if you ask me). Detect devotion would be some sort of compromise, but it would be too good in a dungeon because it detects any thinking creature. *sigh* I can't decide. Anyone has a suggestion completely different from all this? As for the DR issue, the most easy solution might be to retain the subtypes (possibly renaming them holy and unholy or something like that) and the approriate damage reduction and weapon qualities. This might seem contradictory, but I think it would be quite flavourful: no mortal is certain who is good or evil, even what exactly they mean, but they can look up to the heavens and hells to see their ideals exemplified. As such, angels, devils and demons have the subtypes and DR, and the weapons that affect them exist, but this doesn't necessarily mean that an individual angel actually lives up to the standards of traditional goodness, nor does it mean that the angels are objectively better (in a moral sense) than the devils and demons, though common folk will assume this. As such, the traditional divisions, battles, the planar system of the Great Wheel, and the deities, will remain basically the same, except that the objectiveness is removed, as well as the anonymously enforced law that ALL angels are good in a predictable way. That's it for now. I hope to see more comments. Túrin
Paul Hopebringer 06-28-05, 09:05 AM	I like where you are heading with this. Maybe the alignment spells and abilities could be based on what your diety says is evil. Like Heronious/Hextor would have smiting and detecting abilities against each other. Heronious/Hextor members would be able to detect faithful members via use of there spells, which would function by "looking at the member list." Allies and enimies of the two opposed dieties would probably also fall in this catagory. You could still have an enemy with no devotion to any diety, and thus wouldn't be on the "list." If you arn't devoted to a diety, I suppose you could detect/smite opposing values, or maybe opposing emotions related to the opposing idea.
Suicidal Cavalry Attack 06-28-05, 03:08 PM	I suggest dumping all spells like Detect Evil, with no substitutions. As for the Paladin, there is nothing wrong with a general Smite ability. He doesn't get it that much anyway. Once a day at first level, five times a day at twentieth level. It is really not something that caaan be abused if you let him smite anyone.
Mind Rogue 06-28-05, 03:44 PM	If you decide to use a generic detect devotion spell, perhaps you should have the caster decide at the time of casting which devotion he wants to detect. Thus, each use of the spell does not detect all living creatures, but merely those who are devoted to whatever cause you choose at the time. Theoretically, with the ability to use this at will, a paladin could start running through the different devotions, but that takes time. Also, in my campaigns, the general populous are usually a little fearful of any magical abilities, particularly the ones they don't understand. Since people can still tell that the paladin is drawing on some magical power, but not what it is doing, they might start doing things like screaming, attack the paladin for fear that he is harming them, running away, calling the city guard, and so on, which tends to mean that you get really poor answers.
Farealmer 06-29-05, 01:42 AM	I'am not sure if it's been mentioned but what about D20 modern's allegiance system. Found on the SRD.
RoninFrosty 10-04-05, 12:52 PM	One of the biggest conflicts amongst my players is that of alignment. The rogues want to sneak into the enemy camp and slit the commanders' throats in their sleep, while the paladins would rather subdue them and deliver them to the proper authorities. Not only that, but we have two vets and two newbies, and the newbies haven't quite grasped alignment yet. I revoked a paladin's powers after he smashed a defenseless foe's face in with the broadside of a greatsword. I was given a "what the hell" look, and an argument ensued. Now, I'm curious, are we kind of making good and evil a subjective (as opposed to objective) item? I mean, the paladin of Hextor, for example, "If I think it's good, it must be good,"? If that's the case, change smite evil (or the blackguard's smite good) to smite heathen/heretic. Something along those lines. My gripe is this: what am I supposed to do with $60 worth of good and evil supplements (BOVD and BOED)?
weasel fierce 10-04-05, 01:37 PM	Good and evil can exist without using the alignment system.
Koga:The ninja trick 10-04-05, 05:38 PM	Alignment is not suppose to be something that restricts you heavily, if anything it should be desgined to simplify game mechanics. The Koga pretty much ignores chaos/law issues, (unless a paladin, and even then, they just have to be lawful..) but when it comes to good and evil, you can't. Negative/Positive energy is an element, therfore, good/evil is not just a verb anymore, it's a noun. And because of that, rules have to be implemented that casting said spells or waving around weapons pulsing with that sortof energy is going to shift your alingment. Frankly The Koga thinks they went about it all wrong just saying "okay, the more you mingle with the evil crowd, the more evil you're going to become" it should be more realistic then that. Evil spells/weapons should be alot more powerful then good ones, but cost you in the long run, wether it's exp penalties, attribute loss, hp drain, whatever.. Where as good, though not nearly as "cool", is alot more realiable. And then you start to realize who is good and who is evil when you see someone trusting in Pelor to aid him even when he could just say "screw it" and incenerate his foes by wailing like a banshee, litteraly.
Aurotuli 10-04-05, 11:53 PM	Alignment is one of those things that is supposed to be simple but in practice is often anything but. Some DMs have view the Good / Evil axis as a gray spectrum. I once had a DM that told a paladin everyone around him was setting off his detect evil. At first the paladin (a new player) panicked, but then the DM began elaborating: "The merchant across the street has a few gray stripes along his aura - he might be cheating some of his customers. That man over there has a few whisps of gray upon him, perhaps he forgot to attend a recent sacred festival. " etc. Attempting to smite any of these would fail, as none detected as dark gray (aligned evil) or black (subtype evil). Other DMs have a very absolutist view of Good / Evil. There might be a gray middle ground (in Balance) but it is a very slippery slope few can manage for long. Then there is the whole Law / Chaos problem. Some view Lawful as being orderly and principled, while others view it as obeying societies laws and seeing value in tradition and heirarchy. I had a DM once tell me (at the end of a year long campaign) that a few times he considered moving my character's NG alignment to LG. I pointed out that my character had had little interest in local laws, obeying them only when they did not counter his principles, always following his own concept of honor / integrity (strongly based upon Good) instead of the law whenever there was a discrepency. The DM told me that this was what he expected of a paladin type character (which he suggested I play next time, incidentally), that since local laws can vary massively from locale to locale, a Lawful character is determined more by their firm following of their principles than by the ever changing local laws (as you travel from one place to another). Needless to say, this is a different view than strick RAW. But I only give the above examples to highlight the differences that can arrise due to differing views. Therein lies the problem with alignment.
FlameLover 10-05-05, 12:12 AM	What about a "Detect Sins" ability? It'd basically tell you which of the 7 sins (if any) the subject has commited, and on a severity scale of lesser, normal and greater. So for example if someone is very greedy and eats food that the poor should have that'd be Gluttony, greater basically. Another example is someone who is quite angry at their neighbour but hasn't really done much about it (Wrath, lesser). This means you can get a good idea about their "alignment" and emotions but isn't a strict good/evil since nearly everyone has commited one of the 7 deadly sins. Btw i'm not religious but i just thought it would be a good yardstick. And i'm not sure whether you should have to detect for each sin seperatley or you just get them all at once.
Koga:The ninja trick 10-05-05, 05:42 PM	Dr@gon did something simaler creating several spells.. Detect Attitude. Detect Violance. Detect Guilt Detect Heresy.
TúrintheMormegil 10-24-05, 03:46 PM	Hey everyone, Thanks for all your replies. They have been very helpful in getting a good view on the scale and consequences of the changes I am trying to implement here. I think I have made my mind up now: -Paladins will lose the detect evil spell-like ability useable at will in favour of a new spell-like ability, also useable at will. This will be called detect emotions or something along those lines. It will give you the general emotional state (hate, anger, uncaring, politely interested, happy, sad) the subject it is in and will otherwise work mostly like detect evil (including taking three rounds to get useful results). This ability will not detect creatures the paladin isn't already aware of (to prevent abuse that violates the flavour of the ability and my campaign). Detect devotion is out. -The smite evil-ability will lose its "evil"-designation: a paladin can smite anyone he perceives as evil, unless they are a member of a church or organization the paladin is also a member of (not counting infiltration missions), in which case it doesn't work. I will likely require the paladin's player to explain what the NPC has done to deserve being smitten (which is a step further than just being worthy of a beating: a paladin can use his sword against a street thug who just had a bad youth, but not his smite ability). I'm not sure about this last issue as it requires lots of judgment calls from the DM. -Any spell or ability that relies heavily on alignment will be removed. I may have to replace a few of those I haven't considered yet, but I'll worry about that later. Protection from chaos/evil/good/law will be removed in favour of a generic protection spell that protects against any summoned creature (but not against anything else). I may also add one or more new AC-boosting spells. -Alignment-based damage reduction will remain. As far as I know, this damage reduction is possessed only by outsiders. Outsiders and planar travel will probably be rare in my campaign, but I will account for them in the following way: DR/evil will be renamed DR/demonic and the evil subtype will be renamed the demonic subtype (regardless of whether the creature is a demon or a devil). It is possessed by angels and the like and is bypassed by creatures of the demonic subtype as well as unholy weapons, which are now called demonic weapons. DR/good will be renamed DR/angelic and the good subtype will be renamed the angelic subtype. It is possessed by demons and devils and is bypassed by creatures of the angelic subtype as well as holy weapons, which are now called angelic weapons. Also, the align weapon-spell (a 2nd-level cleric spell) will allow a cleric to make weapons angelic or demonic instead of good- or evil-aligned. I'm not sure if it is relevant, but lawful and chaotic damage reduction, subtype and weapons will have the same treatment (though I won't change the names here I think). I hope to have left the system unchanged where I could and applied reasonable change where necessary. The paladin is intended to be slightly more powerful through his more generic smite-ability, which is balanced by the weaker (I think) detect emotions. Please tell me what you think or bring up new points that should be considered when removing alignment (I'm sure I haven't covered everything yet). Check out my campaign setting thread for my implementation of this (see link in sig). Thanks! :tiphat: Túrin
Koga:The ninja trick 10-24-05, 03:57 PM	What's with all the hate for alingment? It's just suppose to add simplicity to the game, alingments are suppose to help describe a personality, not be a stone tablet of death! The Koga thinks an alingmentless system is a system that doesn't understand the simplistic, helpful nature alingments offer, and it complicates the game. Thus making it less fun..
TúrintheMormegil 10-24-05, 04:29 PM	Then we disagree: I think the game can use some complications to make it more interesting. But this is an off-topic discussion (as this thread is for the implementation, not the merits, of alignment-removal)... Feel free to start a thread discussing this.
Leap_UK 10-24-05, 04:38 PM	Consider perhaps simplifying alignment, or even cutting it down to the Lawful / Neutral / Chaotic axis before throwing it out.....?
jagggar 10-24-05, 05:07 PM	I personally think you can still have complex moral situations with alignment. But, hey, you're right, that's not the topic... -Any spell or ability that relies heavily on alignment will be removed. I may have to replace a few of those I haven't considered yet, but I'll worry about that later. Protection from chaos/evil/good/law will be removed in favour of a generic protection spell that protects against any summoned creature (but not against anything else). I may also add one or more new AC-boosting spells. I've heard the idea of also having protection from type spells. So you'd end up with protection from dragons, protection from undead, etc. Have humanoid and outsider require a subtype the way favored enemy does. -Alignment-based damage reduction will remain. As far as I know, this damage reduction is possessed only by outsiders. Outsiders and planar travel will probably be rare in my campaign, but I will account for them in the following way: DR/evil will be renamed DR/demonic and the evil subtype will be renamed the demonic subtype (regardless of whether the creature is a demon or a devil). It is possessed by angels and the like and is bypassed by creatures of the demonic subtype as well as unholy weapons, which are now called demonic weapons. DR/good will be renamed DR/angelic and the good subtype will be renamed the angelic subtype. It is possessed by demons and devils and is bypassed by creatures of the angelic subtype as well as holy weapons, which are now called angelic weapons. Also, the align weapon-spell (a 2nd-level cleric spell) will allow a cleric to make weapons angelic or demonic instead of good- or evil-aligned. I'm not sure if it is relevant, but lawful and chaotic damage reduction, subtype and weapons will have the same treatment (though I won't change the names here I think). I'd suggest dropping the holy/unholy/anarchic/axiomatic weapons down to a +1 enhancement (and perhaps only +1d6 extra damage) since they become so limited in use.
TúrintheMormegil 10-24-05, 05:11 PM	I've heard the idea of also having protection from type spells. So you'd end up with protection from dragons, protection from undead, etc. Have humanoid and outsider require a subtype the way favored enemy does.That's actually a pretty good idea. I might even be able to lower the spells a level or give them some extra power if I limit them in this way. I'd suggest dropping the holy/unholy/anarchic/axiomatic weapons down to a +1 enhancement (and perhaps only +1d6 extra damage) since they become so limited in use. You might also be right on that one. I'd have to check my books and consider that. I'll get back to that. Thanks for your input!
lostone 01-10-06, 09:17 AM	Just wondering if anyone had implemented any of the ideas here and how it is/was working for you? Also, to anyone who responds, what ideas did you use?
Thurbane 01-10-06, 10:27 AM	How about a generic smite (like the one granted to Destruction domain clerics) in place of Smite Evil? Just a stray thought...
TúrintheMormegil 01-10-06, 01:51 PM	@lostone: My only implementation of this system in any form was a short-lived campaign (three sessions) in which I simply stated "there is no alignment" (that was before I thought all the above-mentioned things through). It didn't give any problems because we were level one (no significant alignment-based effects and magic), mostly non-combat and had no paladins in the party. @Thurbane: That is actually what I did in the end (see my ultimate decisions above). For roleplaying reasons I decided to require a justification, but it is basically a generic smite... :tiphat: Túrin
Koga:The ninja trick 01-10-06, 11:04 PM	The paladin doesn't NEED alingments to function. Detect Evil as you said can be replaced easily with Detect Hostility as expressed by Dr@gon and Detect Devotion as you self-created. Smite Evil can be just plain "Smite" as prescribed on the Cleric's domain power destruction. And just drop his Aura of Good. Problem solved.
weasel fierce 01-10-06, 11:27 PM	The Koga is worth listening to