Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilVegan 12-08-07, 03:07 PM	Greetings! Ok. Remember in LotR when Aragorn put on his gloves of dex +6, his hat of intellect +6, his girdle of str +6, his vest of con +6, his necklace of Cha +6, his pants of wis +6, his cloak of resistance +5 (elven kind too), his boots of S&S, buckled on his magic sword, put on his goggles of eagle eye, his ring of protection +5, his ring of spell resistance, his bracers of natural armor +5, and activated his 14 ioun stones of various effects? And remember when Gandolf, Gimli, Lego-lass, Sam, Frodo, Arwyn, Agent Smith, and everyone else mystically had exactly the same equipment? I don't. Personally I think that would be stupid. Yet this is what happens in D&D. Everyone wears like 510 magic items and eventually looks like everyone else. Well, I'm not really against the effects granted by most magic items, such as ability bonuses and armor bonuses and the like, I'm more concerned with the flavor of having to acquire enormous sums of money to buy or make these items. Both the purchase and creation of these items are ill suited to a serious campaign, for various reasons. First, purchase of items crafted above a certain level sustains disbelief beyond a reasonable level in most worlds. How many archmages are there crafting tomes of +5 str? Well by D&D demographics, not many. And as for player crafting, this is even stranger. I have to spend 1000 gold to make this? What did I spend that on? If it was raw materials, could I not have harvested them myself, or made them with magic, or. . . And while I'm on the subject, why does the cost of the item have anything to do with the final price of the item. It's backwards. /Whatever' Here's my proposed change. It's amazingly simple because it uses something that's already in place with a bit of mathematical tweaking. Convert all GP costs in the DMG into TP by dividing by 100. Characters get Training Points, every level. They can use these points to train. Training takes 8 hours per 10 training points spent. Unspent training points are not lost and you can save them up as much as you like. You cannot spend more than 30% of your TP gained that level on any one training excercise, but saved TP may be spent however you like. Bonuses other than inherent bonuses and bonus spell slots are cumulative, as such you subtract the previous TP cost from the next TP cost. For example to go from +1 enhancement bonus to Dex to a +2 enhancement bonus, it costs 30 TP [40 TP for +2 (2X2X10) less the 10 TP for the first +1 (1X1X10)]. Inherent bonuses overlap previous bonuses. Training Ponts by Level: Level Training Level Training Points Points 1 3 11 170 2 9 12 220 3 18 13 295 4 27 14 400 5 36 15 500 6 45 16 600 7 60 17 800 8 75 18 1000 9 90 19 1400 10 130 20 1800 Training Training Cost Trainer Type Ability Bonus (Enhancement) Bonus Squared X 10 Fitness Ability Bonus (Inherent) Bonus X 275 Fitness Armor Bonus (Enhancement) Bonus Squared X 10 Combat Bonus Spell Slot Spell Level Squared X 10 Mystic AC Bonus (Deflection) Bonus Squared X 20 Combat AC Bonus (Other) Bonus Squared X 25 Mystic Natural Armor Bonus (Enhancement) Bonus Squared X 20 Combat Save Bonus (Resistance) Bonus Squared X 10 Fitness Save Bonus (Other) Bonus Squared X 20 Mystic Skill Bonus (Competence) Bonus Squared X 1 Fitness Spell Resistance Per Point Over 12 : 100 Mystic Weapon Bonus (Enhancement) Bonus Squared X 20 Combat This may look familiar. Don't freak out. Also to combine with this there are new feats. Expert Trainer [Combat, Fitness, or Mystic] Your training costs less. Benefit: You spend 20% less TP to train in the chosen category. Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each time it applies to a different training category Combat, Fitness, or Mystic. Quick Traininer Your training takes less time. Benefit: You take 20% less time to train. In addition to these abilities they can get "Special Training", such as Striding which grants +10 enhancement bonus to speed for 40 TP or flaming which teaches you how to add 1d6 fire damage to your weapon as if increasing the enhancement bonus. OK, biggest problems are, this makes people's features work in Antimagic field and they can't be dispelled, disabled, removed, etc. Due to this I was contemplating an increase to the TP cost compared to an equivalent magic item across the board. But how much more is it "worth" as far as balance is concerned? 10%? 50%? Personally, as a DM, I don't think I've had more than one AMF encounter in the past several years, and that was a brief random encounter with a beholder, so it really doesn't strike me as a big deal, but YMMV. WHAT SAY YOU?!?
Etarnon 12-08-07, 11:05 PM	I limit all magic to one piece of gear, for each level of the PC /3, item power = level /3 So a 15th level PC might have 5 items, best of which is +5. Otherwise, items dominate, instead of the character.
Error404 12-09-07, 02:32 PM	Looks good - I wouldn't worry about the AMF-proofing, as I think it's balanced by the somewhat more limited options (no charged or expendable items, no group items). That said, you could always make some of the training benefits count as Supernatural abilities if you wanted AMF to be a factor in the campaign. In fact, certain categories of Mystic training probably should count as supernatural - and possibly require magic assistance when training - such as flight or water-breathing type abilities.
Rosisha 12-10-07, 02:52 PM	I wrote a thread down the way about advanced masterwork rules (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=958507). I think it would be interesting to combine the two systems together. How, I'm not sure, but let me think about while I'm at work and then I'll reply here or send you a PM. So this is a space holder :D Expect an edit in the near future.
unrepentantweed 12-12-07, 11:23 PM	The simple solution is to have (almost) no magic gear avalable. There are many games that assume that there is no magical gear, and limited is any buffs avalable. Games like D20 Modern and Star Wars are effectively free of any such thing and they work fine. It seems that only with the rise of 3rd edition and the idea of a 'market value of magic' and the increase in availability did this problem become noticeable.
Comfy 12-13-07, 06:16 AM	I cut out most of the gold myself, instead opting for feats and ability bonuses. However, I like this idea.
EvilVegan 12-13-07, 08:00 AM	I wrote a thread down the way about advanced masterwork rules. I think it would be interesting to combine the two systems together. How, I'm not sure, but let me think about while I'm at work and then I'll reply here or send you a PM. So this is a space holder Expect an edit in the near future. I'd prefer it here, just for easier reference and further balancing of the two systems :). I'm excited to hear about it! Looks good - I wouldn't worry about the AMF-proofing, as I think it's balanced by the somewhat more limited options (no charged or expendable items, no group items). That said, you could always make some of the training benefits count as Supernatural abilities if you wanted AMF to be a factor in the campaign. In fact, certain categories of Mystic training probably should count as supernatural - and possibly require magic assistance when training - such as flight or water-breathing type abilities. OMG I'm retarded or you're a genius. I completely forgot that I could do these as 'supernatural'. That makes it even better balanced with the current system. As for special types of abilities not included on the list, these would require special training, or even rituals, that would have more of a "I did something to acquire this ability" feel to them. For instance, learning Striding would require running with a tribe of barbarians and learning their ways (one option). It would be up to the DM and they could also just as easily say, "You can go to town and train in X,Y, and Z". It's just retarded to hope that player's find the equipment they need from random charts. The simple solution is to have (almost) no magic gear avalable. There are many games that assume that there is no magical gear, and limited is any buffs avalable. Games like D20 Modern and Star Wars are effectively free of any such thing and they work fine. It seems that only with the rise of 3rd edition and the idea of a 'market value of magic' and the increase in availability did this problem become noticeable.d20 Modern and Star Wars don't have the same CR system and expected player power level. This is more an attempt to allow characters to have no gear but still compete with equivalent CR encounters. I'm also fine with a no-item game, but this would make most high-level encounters much harder, as well as removing a portion of the game that some people enjoy. Also, removing magic items without replacing it with some sort of bonus feature severly limits any equipment based classes, such as fighters.
GawainBS 12-13-07, 09:33 AM	At least you recognize the importance of gear in gamebalance.:) I don't see anything inherently wrong with it, be sure that PC's get the same kind of bonuses at the levels they're expected too. (i.e., if you had the same effects with gear worth 200 000 gp ( for a 20th level PC) as with your system on lvl 20, it's good to go.
aotrscommander 12-13-07, 10:20 AM	You're not a million miles away from what I've done for exactly the same reasons. I used the UA craft points as my starting point, but the net effect is not much different. In my case though, I made the bonuses a fixed progression that applied unilaterally to all characters and monsters (because it cut down on having to decide what to 'buy'.)
EvilVegan 12-13-07, 11:06 AM	At least you recognize the importance of gear in gamebalance. I don't see anything inherently wrong with it, be sure that PC's get the same kind of bonuses at the levels they're expected too. (i.e., if you had the same effects with gear worth 200 000 gp ( for a 20th level PC) as with your system on lvl 20, it's good to go. Theoretically they should be able to get them, even if they aren't choosing to. The hardest training to get would be the highest level things like flight, dimension doors, teleporting. You're not a million miles away from what I've done for exactly the same reasons. I used the UA craft points as my starting point, but the net effect is not much different. In my case though, I made the bonuses a fixed progression that applied unilaterally to all characters and monsters (because it cut down on having to decide what to 'buy'.)I would have done that, but my player's enjoy this sort of thing. Also, I had initially done a unilateral change, but this caused some discrepency between casters and non-casters. I mean, it works, but it wasn't the flavor I was looking foor. Now, instead of calculating loot and dividing it up and worrying about resale, they can focus on improving their characters, which I think will be more rewarding.
aotrscommander 12-13-07, 01:09 PM	I would have done that, but my player's enjoy this sort of thing. Also, I had initially done a unilateral change, but this caused some discrepency between casters and non-casters. I mean, it works, but it wasn't the flavor I was looking foor. Now, instead of calculating loot and dividing it up and worrying about resale, they can focus on improving their characters, which I think will be more rewarding. I thoguht about it and decided that it would add too much time. Also, I could see my players taking another hour doing it and half of them I would end up having to basically do it for them. A fairly simple set of rules unilateral is easy for me to remember (so I can +1/2 lvl AC1, +1 bonus to weapons every 4 levels starting at 2nd, +1 to saves every 4 levels, +1 to natural weapons and +2 enhancement to a stat every 6). Easy enough to apply for my considerably bestiary. Also, I am of course starting from scratch, so the MM stats don't enter into it seeing as everything is new! 1Playtesting that one; might still be a bit high.
PhaedrusXY 12-13-07, 02:46 PM	Can you "untrain" something to get some or all of the points back, to train something else? People like to swap out old magic items for new ones sometimes, you know. Overall, I like this idea. However, with 4th edition eminent, and the supposed reduction in item dependancy with it, I don't really see a big need for it. ;)
Deschain of Gilead 12-13-07, 09:00 PM	I have mixed feelings on this, which are in part for the same reason I have mixed feelings (or just plain loathing) for the idea of 4E. Part of D&D is about the gear, just like it's about classes and hit points. There are myriad other games that are less gear dependent, and they feel significantly different. But, my real question is what place there is for magical gear. I can totally understand and appreciate the urge against uber-accessorizing ("that snap bracelet +4 is mine!") but *all* great fantasy heroes have some magic gear. To take Tolkien as the starting point, Aragorn didn't have Goggles of Minute Seeing, but he clearly had a magic cloak, probably an amulet, and y'know Alduril, Flame of the West. And, that's suppressing the fact that all his elven gear would probably count as magical by D&D's understanding. So, what place does actual gear have under this system? And, for game balance purposes, there should probably be some advantage to having the power in an item rather than "innate" since the former can be stolen, sundered, etc. Just my thoughts.
GawainBS 12-14-07, 11:13 AM	I have mixed feelings on this, which are in part for the same reason I have mixed feelings (or just plain loathing) for the idea of 4E. Part of D&D is about the gear, just like it's about classes and hit points. There are myriad other games that are less gear dependent, and they feel significantly different. But, my real question is what place there is for magical gear. I can totally understand and appreciate the urge against uber-accessorizing ("that snap bracelet +4 is mine!") but *all* great fantasy heroes have some magic gear. To take Tolkien as the starting point, Aragorn didn't have Goggles of Minute Seeing, but he clearly had a magic cloak, probably an amulet, and y'know Alduril, Flame of the West. And, that's suppressing the fact that all his elven gear would probably count as magical by D&D's understanding. So, what place does actual gear have under this system? And, for game balance purposes, there should probably be some advantage to having the power in an item rather than "innate" since the former can be stolen, sundered, etc. Just my thoughts. Not to forget, there's a certain thrill of finding that Holy Avenger, or saving up for a great suit of armour.
Master_Vega 12-14-07, 09:13 PM	Have you looked into the class defense (AC) bonus in D20Modern? Granted it'll make monks cry if you use it (and don't give them some other edge), but it might help your characters be just as competent armor-wise as those who have access to magic armor, but have no AC bonus. Looking through the D20Modern Corebook there are four progressions I can see: *Crap: +0, +1, +1, +1, +2, +2, +2, +3, +3, +3 *Decent: +1, +2, +2, +3, +3, +4, +4, +5, +5 *Good: +1, +2, +2, +3, +4, +4, +5, +6 +6, +7 *Awesome: +3, +4, +4, +5, +5, +6, +6, +7, +7, +8 (or the less front-loaded and often house-ruled Awesome: +2, +3, +3, +4, +5, +5, +6, +7, +7, +8) The Awesome progression is only used in one class (Fast Hero base class), just so you know, perhaps you should give that progression to the Monk if you decide to use this idea. For the heck of it, twenty-level progressions: Crap: +0, +1, +1, +1, +2, +2, +2, +3, +3, +3, +4, +4, +4, +5, +5, +5, +6, +6, +6, +7 Decent: +1, +2, +2, +3, +3, +4, +4, +5, +5, +6, +6, +7, +7, +8, +8, +9, +9, +10, +10, +11 Good: +1, +2, +2, +3, +4, +4, +5, +6 +6, +7, +8, +8, +9, +10, +10, +11, +12, +12, +13, +14 Awesome: +2, +3, +3, +4, +5, +5, +6, +7, +7, +8, +9, +9, +10, +11, +11, +12, +13, +13, +14, +15 (Front-loaded awesome isn't so awesome by 20th level, so I used the less front-loaded progression). "Awesome" is really just a kick-started "Good", so you might want to get rid of it altogether... that or you could only give it to the monk/monk-like classes and have monks keep their AC bonus progression in addition. Might I also suggest that full casters get the "Crap" progression? :P * The progressions actually aren't called this, they aren't even listed in the CRB like BAB is in the PHB so I decided to name them. :P Hope that helps you, good sir. Edit: In d20Modern, the bonus stacks with armor. I'm not sure if you want that in your games. Also, separating the PCs from their toys has a lot less effect with class bonuses to AC, but then it seems like you don't really care about that scenario anyway. I'm pretty sure you don't need to give AC bonuses to non-humanoid creatures in the Monster Manuel; I'm pretty sure their AC is high enough as it is. :P
GawainBS 12-15-07, 06:23 AM	I think it's vital you let it stack with armour. Otherwise you end up with armourless PC's, since those values are almost always better than non-enchanted armour. Donning armour is one of those fundamental things a good hero does before battle, right?:)
EvilVegan 12-15-07, 08:02 AM	Can you "untrain" something to get some or all of the points back, to train something else? People like to swap out old magic items for new ones sometimes, you know. Overall, I like this idea. However, with 4th edition eminent, and the supposed reduction in item dependancy with it, I don't really see a big need for it. ;):) Yes, you can untrain. I'm a huge fan of retraining rules, and allow players to change their characters as much as they like. Most of them don't even bother, but they have the option. I have mixed feelings on this, which are in part for the same reason I have mixed feelings (or just plain loathing) for the idea of 4E. Part of D&D is about the gear, just like it's about classes and hit points. There are myriad other games that are less gear dependent, and they feel significantly different. But, my real question is what place there is for magical gear. I can totally understand and appreciate the urge against uber-accessorizing ("that snap bracelet +4 is mine!") but *all* great fantasy heroes have some magic gear. To take Tolkien as the starting point, Aragorn didn't have Goggles of Minute Seeing, but he clearly had a magic cloak, probably an amulet, and y'know Alduril, Flame of the West. And, that's suppressing the fact that all his elven gear would probably count as magical by D&D's understanding. So, what place does actual gear have under this system? And, for game balance purposes, there should probably be some advantage to having the power in an item rather than "innate" since the former can be stolen, sundered, etc. Just my thoughts. Yea, I was planning on having some magical gear. Usually limited to 2-3 items. I didn't really plan on it so much. I was thinking either ancestral relics or items of legacy style items.
EvilVegan 12-15-07, 08:05 AM	Have you looked into the class defense (AC) bonus in D20Modern? Granted it'll make monks cry if you use it (and don't give them some other edge), but it might help your characters be just as competent armor-wise as those who have access to magic armor, but have no AC bonus. Looking through the D20Modern Corebook there are four progressions I can see: *Crap: +0, +1, +1, +1, +2, +2, +2, +3, +3, +3 *Decent: +1, +2, +2, +3, +3, +4, +4, +5, +5 *Good: +1, +2, +2, +3, +4, +4, +5, +6 +6, +7 *Awesome: +3, +4, +4, +5, +5, +6, +6, +7, +7, +8 (or the less front-loaded and often house-ruled Awesome: +2, +3, +3, +4, +5, +5, +6, +7, +7, +8) The Awesome progression is only used in one class (Fast Hero base class), just so you know, perhaps you should give that progression to the Monk if you decide to use this idea. For the heck of it, twenty-level progressions: Crap: +0, +1, +1, +1, +2, +2, +2, +3, +3, +3, +4, +4, +4, +5, +5, +5, +6, +6, +6, +7 Decent: +1, +2, +2, +3, +3, +4, +4, +5, +5, +6, +6, +7, +7, +8, +8, +9, +9, +10, +10, +11 Good: +1, +2, +2, +3, +4, +4, +5, +6 +6, +7, +8, +8, +9, +10, +10, +11, +12, +12, +13, +14 Awesome: +2, +3, +3, +4, +5, +5, +6, +7, +7, +8, +9, +9, +10, +11, +11, +12, +13, +13, +14, +15 (Front-loaded awesome isn't so awesome by 20th level, so I used the less front-loaded progression). "Awesome" is really just a kick-started "Good", so you might want to get rid of it altogether... that or you could only give it to the monk/monk-like classes and have monks keep their AC bonus progression in addition. Might I also suggest that full casters get the "Crap" progression? :P * The progressions actually aren't called this, they aren't even listed in the CRB like BAB is in the PHB so I decided to name them. :P Hope that helps you, good sir. Edit: In d20Modern, the bonus stacks with armor. I'm not sure if you want that in your games. Also, separating the PCs from their toys has a lot less effect with class bonuses to AC, but then it seems like you don't really care about that scenario anyway. I'm pretty sure you don't need to give AC bonuses to non-humanoid creatures in the Monster Manuel; I'm pretty sure their AC is high enough as it is. :P I was thinking about incorporating something like this. I think it's vital you let it stack with armour. Otherwise you end up with armourless PC's, since those values are almost always better than non-enchanted armour. Donning armour is one of those fundamental things a good hero does before battle, right?:) Yes, I'm a fan of armor.
VulcanStormwrath 12-15-07, 10:21 AM	Greetings! Ok. Remember in LotR when Aragorn put on his gloves of dex +6, his hat of intellect +6, his girdle of str +6, his vest of con +6, his necklace of Cha +6, his pants of wis +6, his cloak of resistance +5 (elven kind too), his boots of S&S, buckled on his magic sword, put on his goggles of eagle eye, his ring of protection +5, his ring of spell resistance, his bracers of natural armor +5, and activated his 14 ioun stones of various effects? And remember when Gandolf, Gimli, Lego-lass, Sam, Frodo, Arwyn, Agent Smith, and everyone else mystically had exactly the same equipment? I don't. Personally I think that would be stupid. Yet this is what happens in D&D. Everyone wears like 510 magic items and eventually looks like everyone else. Well, I'm not really against the effects granted by most magic items, such as ability bonuses and armor bonuses and the like, I'm more concerned with the flavor of having to acquire enormous sums of money to buy or make these items. Both the purchase and creation of these items are ill suited to a serious campaign, for various reasons. First, purchase of items crafted above a certain level sustains disbelief beyond a reasonable level in most worlds. How many archmages are there crafting tomes of +5 str? Well by D&D demographics, not many. And as for player crafting, this is even stranger. I have to spend 1000 gold to make this? What did I spend that on? If it was raw materials, could I not have harvested them myself, or made them with magic, or. . . And while I'm on the subject, why does the cost of the item have anything to do with the final price of the item. It's backwards. /Whatever' Here's my proposed change. It's amazingly simple because it uses something that's already in place with a bit of mathematical tweaking. Convert all GP costs in the DMG into TP by dividing by 100. Characters get Training Points, every level. They can use these points to train. Training takes 8 hours per 10 training points spent. Unspent training points are not lost and you can save them up as much as you like. You cannot spend more than 30% of your TP gained that level on any one training excercise, but saved TP may be spent however you like. Bonuses other than inherent bonuses and bonus spell slots are cumulative, as such you subtract the previous TP cost from the next TP cost. For example to go from +1 enhancement bonus to Dex to a +2 enhancement bonus, it costs 30 TP [40 TP for +2 (2X2X10) less the 10 TP for the first +1 (1X1X10)]. Inherent bonuses overlap previous bonuses. Training Ponts by Level: Level Training Level Training Points Points 1 3 11 170 2 9 12 220 3 18 13 295 4 27 14 400 5 36 15 500 6 45 16 600 7 60 17 800 8 75 18 1000 9 90 19 1400 10 130 20 1800 Training Training Cost Trainer Type Ability Bonus (Enhancement) Bonus Squared X 10 Fitness Ability Bonus (Inherent) Bonus X 275 Fitness Armor Bonus (Enhancement) Bonus Squared X 10 Combat Bonus Spell Slot Spell Level Squared X 10 Mystic AC Bonus (Deflection) Bonus Squared X 20 Combat AC Bonus (Other) Bonus Squared X 25 Mystic Natural Armor Bonus (Enhancement) Bonus Squared X 20 Combat Save Bonus (Resistance) Bonus Squared X 10 Fitness Save Bonus (Other) Bonus Squared X 20 Mystic Skill Bonus (Competence) Bonus Squared X 1 Fitness Spell Resistance Per Point Over 12 : 100 Mystic Weapon Bonus (Enhancement) Bonus Squared X 20 Combat This may look familiar. Don't freak out. Also to combine with this there are new feats. Expert Trainer [Combat, Fitness, or Mystic] Your training costs less. Benefit: You spend 20% less TP to train in the chosen category. Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each time it applies to a different training category Combat, Fitness, or Mystic. Quick Traininer Your training takes less time. Benefit: You take 20% less time to train. In addition to these abilities they can get "Special Training", such as Striding which grants +10 enhancement bonus to speed for 40 TP or flaming which teaches you how to add 1d6 fire damage to your weapon as if increasing the enhancement bonus. OK, biggest problems are, this makes people's features work in Antimagic field and they can't be dispelled, disabled, removed, etc. Due to this I was contemplating an increase to the TP cost compared to an equivalent magic item across the board. But how much more is it "worth" as far as balance is concerned? 10%? 50%? Personally, as a DM, I don't think I've had more than one AMF encounter in the past several years, and that was a brief random encounter with a beholder, so it really doesn't strike me as a big deal, but YMMV. WHAT SAY YOU?!? What I love about this is that with the training time required for upgrades etc. you don't have the disbelief killer of characters with a ton of equipment going up 5 levels in 2 weeks of game time. In between adventuring the characters spend months improving their skills. This also allows them to interact more with the community and adds great plot hooks. (Your weapons trainer was killed by one of his clients.)
Master_Vega 12-15-07, 05:37 PM	I was thinking about incorporating something like this. Yes, I'm a fan of armor. Well I hope that helped you out. :P How strong do you want the AC bonus progressions to be if you do incorporate them?
Dither 12-16-07, 03:41 AM	The hardest training to get would be the highest level things like flight, dimension doors, teleporting. Except that ninjas can do all those things at level -2.
EvilVegan 12-16-07, 08:18 AM	Well I hope that helped you out. :P How strong do you want the AC bonus progressions to be if you do incorporate them?I'd vary them by class. Monks/ninjas would have the highest unarmored AC, followed by swashbucklers and maybe abjuration specialist wizards. Different types of armor bonuses though. My specialists aren't at all like standard specialists, more on par with beguilers. Except that ninjas can do all those things at level -2.Ninjas can do all of these things automatically.
Rosisha 12-16-07, 10:12 PM	my overall reaction to the use of magic item dependency in D&D is this: special items should be special, and not handed out like cookies at a party. Magic should make a character go "WOW!" and not "YAY I can put wall to wall in my second castle." Which is what the current wealth by level system does. Also, I hate the "But the wealth chart says i can have this much wealth and I want this cause it has this value so there!" DM: "But that item isn't in my campaign world..." player: "BUT I WANT IT CAUSE THE DMG SAYS SO." However, gear is important because it is what gives the players the edge they need fairly, rather then having each class be a powerhouse (something else I tried once). my approach was to modify the masterwork rules: The first thing I did was give players access to a feat that allows for the creation of masterwork items. Then they can use any craft skill, take the masterwork feat for that skill, and make masterwork items. Masterwork items have an overall value expressed as +X, after some modifications it is anywhere from +1 to +10. These pluses are determined by taking all the atributes that you wish to add and putting them together. Standard +X values are things like a bonus of +1 to attack. this makes a sword a masterwork sword +1. A +1 to attack and +1 to damage makes the sword a Masterwork Sword +2 in terms of cost and dc to create. Other values are given a +X value as well. Reduce weight by 5% = +1 value. Increase range by 10% = +1 value. Other things then weapons could be used as well. A mastercraftsmen composer [craft (composition)] could craft a song so stirring that it grants a +3 to any Perform (singing) check. Alchemy is also included. Alchemical items can be made into masterwork items, with the same overall rules, but the Mastercraftsmen Alchemist could also add alchemical properties to other items. such as a +2 Alchemical bonus to fortitude saves made while wearing treated leatherarmor (perm enhancement). this automatically raises the value of the item by +1 (thus, the leatherarmor has a +2 bonus for fort, +1 for using alchemy, for a total of being +3). that is the essence of the system. essentially it allows the player to tailor design their characters gear WITHOUT using magical items, thus allowing magical items to be special and unique. sure, there is still an element of gear magic to it.... but not as bad. As they don't glow blue under detect magic :D Also, the player crafts it, without finding it, meaning that, in my experience, they usually consider it more worthwhile then "Oh another +1 sword. yay." Rosisha
Nox_Noctis 12-18-07, 02:45 AM	Training Training Cost Trainer Type Ability Bonus (Enhancement) Bonus Squared X 10 Fitness Ability Bonus (Inherent) Bonus X 275 Fitness Armor Bonus (Enhancement) Bonus Squared X 10 Combat Bonus Spell Slot Spell Level Squared X 10 Mystic AC Bonus (Deflection) Bonus Squared X 20 Combat AC Bonus (Other) Bonus Squared X 25 Mystic Natural Armor Bonus (Enhancement) Bonus Squared X 20 Combat Save Bonus (Resistance) Bonus Squared X 10 Fitness Save Bonus (Other) Bonus Squared X 20 Mystic Skill Bonus (Competence) Bonus Squared X 1 Fitness Spell Resistance Per Point Over 12 : 100 Mystic Weapon Bonus (Enhancement) Bonus Squared X 20 Combat I would ask what stops you from choosing ability bonus +1 five times as opposed to ability bonus +5 once (which costs 250 as opposed to the 50 of the former option). Perhaps I have missed something, but I do not believe I have.
GawainBS 12-18-07, 03:17 AM	The same rule as for inherent boni? They don't stack, only the highest applies.
Nox_Noctis 12-18-07, 04:50 PM	Ah, I should have paid closer attention to the parentheses.
runestar 12-20-07, 09:17 AM	Aragorn did not have to face any foe with a cr anywhere remotely near his own ECL either....;)