Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StormKnight 06-20-05, 12:27 PM	Its come up in some other threads that some players find the skill system too cumbersome, so I'm just playing around thinking about ideas for how to remove it from the game. How about this... Don't use the different skills. There's no assigning skill points or any of that stuff. Instead, each character has a flat skill bonus. Any non combat check is based on your skill bonus plus an appropriate stat. You can still take feats that add to a specific skill; the bonus would just be applied anytime the task were rolling for fell under that skill (GMs decision). Here's how you figure out your skill bonus: Make a skill advancement track with 8 boxes. Everytime you would get a skill point, mark off 1 box. (Do NOT multiply skill points by 4 at first level). Whenever the skill advancement track is full, add +1 to your skill bonus and clear the boxes. For example, a human who is a level 3 fighter and level 2 rogue, with a +1 int bonus, would have marked off a total of: 5 boxes per level for being a human 5 boxes per level for the +1 Int bonus 6 boxes for 2 skill points per level for 3 levels of fighter 16 boxes for 8 skill points per level for 2 levels of rogue For a total of 32 boxes The character has a skill bonus of +4 and no boxes currently filled in. The character would therefore add +4 to any check that the GM decides would be a skill check.
solandras 06-20-05, 01:04 PM	Honestly while it does simplify things (kinda) in that you no longer need to worry about individual skills, it REALLY makes things unrealistic on a mass scale. Basically everyone gets good at everything. Everyone becomes the bards best dream. I mean sure the fighter and some others would such equally at everything, but the rouge and some others would excel at everything out there. I don't know, I've actually had the idea to do the opposite and make everything a skill. From normal skills, to attack bonuses, to spells. This just seems a bit counter productive. But then again if your players like it, then have at it.
Kintara 06-20-05, 01:28 PM	Hmm, I actually kind of like the idea, but I think it needs just one more level of differentiation. Different classes should get their full bonus with certain types of skills, and half of their skill bonus in something outside of their area. Like, you could have Athletics, Knowledge, Agility, Arts and Crafts (i.e. all the Performs and Crafts), and Interaction. Assign the categories to the different classes (or have them choose a number of categories, independant of class). If you have the categories, then you apply your full bonus to them, if you don't you apply half. Multiclassing throws a wrench into things, a bit, but perhaps you can think of something. Perhaps it only counts as a "Class Category" if you have a certain proportion, so a Rogue 1/Fighter 19 wouldn't get the categories because they don't have enough Rogue levels for it to count. Maybe the class needs to be within five levels of your highest class to count. One problem I see is that certain skill checks will be extremely difficult to make, as the bonuses will usually be smaller than normal, especially as you gain levels. It's worth noting, though, that a high Int Rogue will have a skill bonus in the 30s, by level 20.
Owatkiam 06-21-05, 10:06 AM	Well, having played 1E with and without skills, skills definitely give you something in the game to make two fighters different creatures other than just what weapons they use. That said, since playing SW, I think DnD skill points are a bit thin. If you take out skills, you REALLY need to look at Rogues and Bards and see how much this will effect them (good or bad). Nerfing a Bard's performance skill is REALLY bad for the Bard both mechanically and conceptually. Here's something radical...Maybe the answer is to give out more skills so that Fighters and Wizzies aren't just dumping points into the skills they NEED, but also have some room to flesh out their character with skills as well (you'd have to increase all class needless to say...Ftrs and Wizs just examples). I'm not sure how well that'd work out, but its a thought.
rbrt_Spade 06-21-05, 10:20 AM	do you know how much this will effect a game-talk about balance :embarrass do you plan on still doing dcs-mabye for rogues you could use a d% system for rogues/bards like they did in 2.0
lostone 06-21-05, 11:35 AM	As your original post is, you have just made Rogues into even worse skill-monkeys than they were before. But if you apply the idea above where that generic skill bonus applies to class skills, it is better. How about this: Out of the class skills, the player picks half to be their "specialist" skills. Their skill bonus applies in full to those skills. The other half of class skills they get a half bonus on. All the other skills that can be used untrained they get a d20 roll plus the appropriate attribute bonus. This would keep two rogues from having identical skills, one might be specialized in picking pockets and stealth, the other might be specialized in the social arts and is a spy. And another might be specialized in stealth and intimidation and be an assassin/enforcer.
StormKnight 06-21-05, 11:43 AM	Thanks for the comments so far. I agree, this would be a pretty drastic change; it would basically give you a characters "average" skill. Rogues would be get quite a boost from this; they could do ANYTHING well. I think this is fine for general skills for most other characters; I agree it could be a little too low for skills that are really critical to the class. For example, even a high level wizard would have a hard time making much of a lore or spellcraft type check. I think it would work ok for a game where you weren't sweating that stuff too much - the DM might apply a circumstance bonus to things your class is supposed to be good at. This is directed, by the way, at some players that really dislike the skill system - finding it too clunky and complicated. So adding skill points really doesn't make much of a solution :) Iostone - an interesting idea, but it still maintains all the skills, which doesn't really fix this problem. What might be good is some intermediate route, where the number of skills is drastically reduced by combining skills.
Owatkiam 06-21-05, 01:23 PM	Thanks for the comments so far. What might be good is some intermediate route, where the number of skills is drastically reduced by combining skills. That's an idea, but you need to ask whether you need to cut down skill points as well. I think the real thing that needs to be asked is this... what kind of campaign is this? If it is principally a dungeon crawling campaign, then you can indeed reduce the number of skills down and just assume that certain skills for certain classes = Lvl+3 while non-class skills =1/2Lvl or something like that. I'd narrow the list of class skills while doing this. This is even more light weight than the system you proposed ( which by the way seemed decent enough...worth some testing...you'd probably still want to use the concept of class and non class skills though...you only get 1/2 bonus for nonclass). If the principle objection is just book keeping, maybe you just tag some skills as "Class abilities" in this system, then assume anything else that a character does is unskilled if it comes up. You could also tell the players that instead of skill points, they get 1 skill per point you would get for leveling up... the rank of the skill is always lvl+3. Also, you need to consider what happens to skills like Craft? It seems a bit likely to overpower the campaign if everyone's assumed to be Lvl+3 in all craft skills...they'll be going nuts building more than hacking and slashing. Charisma skills could be ignored now...leave it up to the player's ability to role play the character for bluff and intimidate and other cha skills.
Kintara 06-21-05, 03:55 PM	A smaller skill list is something I think should be done. One of my DMs has already started testing out a smaller list. Discard: Hide and Move Silently Replace With: Stealth Primary Ability: Dex Discard: Balance and Tumble Replace With: Acrobatics Primary Ability: Dex ~ Special: 5 ranks in Acrobatics gives a +2 synergy to Athletics Discard: Climb, Jump, and Swim Replace With: Athletics Primary Ability: Str ~ Special: 5 ranks in Athletics gives a +2 synergy to Acrobatics Discard: Open Lock Replace With: Disable Device Discard: Appraise Replace With: relevant Craft or Profession skill Discard: Decipher Script and Speak Language Replace With: Language Primary Ability: Int ~ Special: Ranks work the same way as with Speak Language. Skill total is used as Decipher Script.Oh, and we made the Bind function of Use Rope a part of Sleight of Hand, and the other stuff was made easier if you have an appropriate skill. If you're really going for simplicity, then roll Spot and Listen together into Alertness, make Craft into a general Crafts skill (perhaps with each rank giving you another specialty, like how Perform worked in 3.0, and make Perform like that while you're at it), and make Knowledge into a general Lore skill. This leaves the Cha skills alone, mostly, but you could roll some of those together, too. If you really shrink the number of skills down a lot, then you might consider lowering the skill points slightly for the high SP classes. Another idea for skills like Perform, Craft, and even Knowledge is to make a character take a specialization, like normal, but allow all the other possibilities at a DC penalty of 5. The character can just buy another specialty for a skill point if they want to eliminate the penalty.
lostone 06-22-05, 07:43 AM	Oh, and we made the Bind function of Use Rope a part of Sleight of Hand, and the other stuff was made easier if you have an appropriate skill.Instead of Sleight of Hand I'd say use Escape Artist. If you're good at escaping you should be just as good at preventing someone from escaping. :) You might also simplify the craft skills down into the base components, ie: Craft (metal), craft (wood), craft (cloth), etc. And Perform down into: Perform (vocal), perform (instrumental) and perform (acting/physical/acrobatics), etc. Just use some common sense, a character with perform instrumental may be familiar with instruments from his region, but he isn't going to be able to travel across the world, pick up a strange instrument (like a bagpipe) he has never seen and play it effectively.
Drachasor 06-25-05, 02:39 PM	The problem isn't the concept of skills, but rather how the game and, the frankly horrible skill system interact. D&D is game that is about overcoming challenges. Overcoming a combat challenge is well done and a major strength of the game. Overcoming any other sort of challenge is a major weak spot of the game. The skill system is uninteresting and too simplistic for this to be much fun, and there are no good guidelines about how to setup non-combat challenges. Taken together and you have a game that can handle combat well, but really is poor at handling challenges outside of combat. I am not sure what a system for setting up challenges out of combat should look like, but I am pretty sure that once that problem is solved it will be much easier to figure out what the skill system should look like. The key is that whatever this thing is like, tactics and strategy will have to important factors in resolving the challenges--just like they are for combat. -Drachasor
Masterful_Norg 06-25-05, 07:54 PM	The idea of skill reduction is very appealing to me. In my Tri-Stat games I use a unique attribute called "Background" which grants a flat bonus preportionate to the attribute's rank to perform all actions in some way related to the background. If one aquires two backgrounds and there is a specific action related to both then the bonuses from each become cumulative. Someone who has chosen the backgrounds "Criminal Investigator" and "Computer Technician" would have a significant bonus granted to checks to find a Criminal Profile in police databases. Unfortunately the system of backgrounds cannot be directly superimposed onto D&D because Tri-Stat's appreciation of ballance is at variance with that of D&D. It would be more productive to go about compressing the skills to the furthest extent possible without sacrificing versatility. For reference here is a list of all the skills: Appraise Ballance Bluff Climb Concentration Craft Decipher Script Diplomacy Disable Device Disguise Escape Artist Forgery Gather Information Handle Animal Hide Intimidate Jump Knowledge (Arcana, Architecture and engineering, Dungeoneering, Geography, History, Local, Nature, Nobility and royalty, Religion, The planes) Listen Move Silently Open Lock Perform (Comedy, Dance, Keyboard Instruments, Oratory, Percussion instruments, String instruments, Wind instruments, Song) Profession Ride Search Sense Motive Slight of Hand Speak Language Spellcraft Spot Survival Swim Tumble Use Magic Device Use Rope Stealth, Acrobatics, Athletics, Disable Device (containing open lock), Craft or Profession (containing Appraise), Language, Slight of Hand (containing Bind), and Altertness (to which I would personally add Sense Motive and Search) I think are a good start. As for the Craft devisions they could be devided into Architecture (which would absorb Knowledge: Architecture), Devices, and Armaments. For perform there's no reason to have a physical devision that includes acrobatics, but otherwise the devisions Vocal, Instrumental and Dance are good while comedy and oratory could fall under a general interaction skill (including Intimidate, Gather Information, Bluff, Diplomacy and Handle Animal (while Disguise can be tossed into Stealth)). Use Magic Device, Spellcraft, Concentration and Knowledge Arcana could be combined and simply called Spellcraft, while Knowledge Nature and Survival could be united under the name of the former. I'm thinking of narrowing it down to about 12 skills though that may be unrealistic while still preserving versatility.
GreyLord 06-26-05, 11:47 AM	You find the skill system too cumbersome? Well, you could give Castles and Crusades a shot, or pick up their rules and adapt their take to your 3.5 game in regards to primes, using the primes for set class skills instead of how 3.5 handles it.
Kintara 06-26-05, 12:19 PM	Iron Heroes, a new variant PHB from Malhavok, also has a new skill system, though it has a different intention than simplification. It removes the concept of class and cross-class skills. Instead, they break things into skill groups, kind of like we did, but not all classes have access to all of them. So the class might have access to Athletics, Perception, and Acrobatics skill groups, and then they can use the rest of their skill points to buy skills as normal for a class skill as it is now. The intention with this system is simply to encourage people to take skills that people sometimes decide not to take because they don't want to waste their points. You may not want to take Climb, but Athletics looks like a decent deal. That was kind of our intention when we rolled our skills together. Also, common sense played a part. I mean, Disable Device and Open Lock should not be seperate skills just because they wanted Open Lock to be Dex-based.
Masterful_Norg 06-26-05, 01:49 PM	This is as narrow a list as I think one can make without unnecessarily combining tenuously related skills: Stealth (dex) Acrobatics (dex) Athletics (str) Disable Device (int) Craft [Architecture, Devices, Armaments] (int) Profession (wis) Language (int) Slight of Hand [Now contains Use Rope] (dex) Alertness (wis) Perform [Vocal, Instrumental, Dance] (cha) Interaction (cha) Spellcraft (int) Survival (wis) Knowledge [General] (int) Ride (dex) Forgery (int) Escape Artist (dex) I trust that with common sense as my guide enough of these look like sweet deals though the last 3 are highly specialized. If you think of anyway we could take those last skills and roll them into something let me know.
Kintara 06-26-05, 02:17 PM	Well, you could roll Forgery into Language, and get Scribery. Also, it can be a form of Craft skill. Technically, Escape Artist could be seen as Acrobatics. Personally, I'm not sure I like the big Interaction skill. I'd probably expand that one out to two skills, somehow.
Masterful_Norg 06-26-05, 03:17 PM	Scribery it is! And I guess Escape Artist can go into Acrobatics though the skill probably now needs a new name like... funambulism, or gymnasticism...ism. Right now I can't come up with the best way to redivide the interaction skill so I leave that to someone else while I recover from my "sick of ness". I don't think the ride skill can be combined with any of the other skills.
Kintara 06-26-05, 03:22 PM	Well, to beef it up, you could make Handle Animal a skill again, and roll Ride into it. I can easily see riding as developing a relationship with the animal you're riding, anyway. It can have a feat like Tactile Trapsmith, if it bothers people.
Drachasor 06-26-05, 03:28 PM	Drat, with the search down I can't easily search for other threads on this topic. Anyhow, the problem with the skill system isn't how they are grouped, or what is a class or non-class skill, or anything like that. The problem is this: If combat is as complicated and interesting as chess/axis&allies, any use of skills is like checkers/risk. Anything in the game that is using skills and not combat is therefore quite boring and uninteresting relative to combat. If combat was as simple as skills, then it would be composed of rolling your attack, and if it hits your opponent is defeated. The solution is to find a way to make skill-based problems interesting, requiring thought and tactics to overcome. Diplomacy shouldn't just be roll your diplomacy check and see if you succeed, but a much more involved and interesting process, replete with real game choices that affect how you roll, how likely it is to succeed, how long it will take, etc. And it shouldn't be just one roll on a pass-fail system. Until that happens, the skill system is fundamentally a poor match for the rest of D&D. -Drachasor
Kintara 06-26-05, 03:36 PM	Drachasor, I don't know if I'd call it a "poor match" fundamentally, even if the skill system isn't as interesting as combat (which I fully agree with). I agree with much of what you're saying, but the more you make one system more dynamic and interesting, the more the mechanics grow, and the game gains more focus on that mechanic. D&D isn't really designed for intrigue or "social combat," so the system for resolving that is both simple and small. That said, I think there's a middle-ground that can be achieved, which is another reason I've been pimping Iron Heroes on this board. What I've read of it looks like a goldmine of interesting ideas. One thing they've added to the skill system is more combat uses for the skills, and a skill challenge system to help players come up with ways to use their high skill scores gain an edge in combat. I think that's a good idea because it keeps the focus on what D&D does well, combat, but still makes skills more interesting mechanically.
Drachasor 06-26-05, 03:44 PM	I think one could design a skill system that wasn't too different mechanically from combat. That way it wouldn't be too hard to learn. The trick is designing the system to make sure it is balanced and interesting, among other things. I'll start a thread on this within a couple hours, once I piece together my thoughts on the matter so that I have a rough starting point to propose. Then hopefully some community input will help develop it into something good. In my mind D&D wants to be about more things than just combat. Right now it just isn't good at anything except for combat. That's why the skill system needs fixing. -Drachasor
Masterful_Norg 06-26-05, 04:25 PM	Handle Animal a skill again, and roll Ride into it.Indeed! Drachasor, While I agree that something should be done for the skills that aren't frequently involved in combat, skills such as Acrobatics and Athletics which are used to surmount obstacles near instantaneously shouldn't receive that sort of treatment. Though I can imagine a "diplomacy battle" providing a greater sense of reward than a single roll I can scarcely imagine a "jump battle" bearing a similar sense of reward.
Kintara 06-26-05, 04:27 PM	Well, that sounds like a big project. Might I suggest focusing on one type of skill, first? Social rules would seem to me to be the best place to start. I suppose you could come up with a sort of "riddle combat" system, as well, for mental challenges. I'm not sure how I'd approach the physical skills differently.
weasel fierce 06-27-05, 10:14 PM	I agree that a class based system should not place additional restrictions on the character, by ALSO using a skill system, given that the two serve the same purpose. Inform the player what he is incapable of doing. I'd do it even simpler, and simply give players a "proficiency" rating that goes up with levels. For tasks that seem within the class and background, give the full bonus to a test, for things that are related but vague, half the bonus, and for completely strange stuff, only the base ability roll.