Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rotfl_and_Lol 03-23-07, 05:02 PM	XP component is bad thing, because it affects only the caster, even when other party member benefits from it. There were some spells that allowed to transfer XP components, but this is not I'm looking for. I'm thinking rather about "Negative XP" system, in which XP penalty isn't permanent, but curable with some high level spell with cost equal to healed creature HD or 10 (whichever is greater) times negative XP cured in gp. I haven't tested it, so I don't know is it balanced. My players aren't using anything that has cost in XP (including feats of item creation, even as wizards). Current system also greatly penalizes some psionic powers (greater metamorphosis). Anyway, does anyone here knows better one?
Tequila_Sunrise 03-23-07, 10:35 PM	Exchange the XP cost for cash. Perhaps 10 gp for each XP...
Selgard 03-23-07, 10:41 PM	Heya In the last big campaign I was in, the DM felt that Spells with XP components were out of line, so he removed the XP components from them. What happened next is that the Sorc (Myself) and the Wizard both started using Wish/Lim Wish out the wazoo. Literally. (the DM didn't take away XP for crafting or anything else- just for spells). The overall impact on the campaign was very noticeable. As a sorceror, i could cast very nearly any spell with either Limited Wish or Wish, and with a day's notice the Wizard could do the same simply by memorizing those spells. Need a specific wiz/sorc/cleric spell? no problem. -Wish- was the answer. The spells have a built in cap against it, but that only kept us from using the highest levels of spells. So, imo, i'd suggest Against doin away with the XP portion of Any spell, unless you are going to have some other penalty in place. Maybe an RP penalty (if your players do that sort of thing) or a GP penalty, or Somethin.. but doin away with it altogether is, imo, a bad idea. (not that we didn't have fun with it, -g- but it did sorta get outta hand)
Xavon 03-24-07, 12:56 PM	As a DM, I replace XP costs with HP reduction. For every 200 XP the spell or item normally woud have cost, the wizard/sorcerer had his max HP reduced by 1 (minimum of 1). This loss of HP could not be negated, except by wish (and then only up to 25). Lost HP were restored at a rate of 1 per month, and 1 per 1000 XP gained. This doesn't put the spellcaster behind the rest of the party for levels, but adds a cost, a danger, and a limitation to those spells.
Patrick Draken-Korin 03-24-07, 09:48 PM	Here's an idea, based off of Xavon's suggestion; Apply minimum nonlethal damage values. For every 200 Xp expended (for anything), the caster/crafter takes 1 point of nonlethal damage that requires 1 month to heal or gaining 1,000 Xp. And maybe (MAYBE) let heal restore 3 such nonlethal damage and mass heal restore 5 such nonlethal damage. It's not quite as nasty as Xavon's suggestion, though it would prove almost as effective. For further effectiveness, with or without applying lethal damage, you could add a fortitude save; DC 10+long-term nonlethal damage+spell level (or equivalent). - Fail; -2 penalty on skill checks. - Fail by 5 or more; penalty applies on attack rolls and damage. - Fail by 10 or more; penalty applies on saves. You know, just to be mean. Actually I really like this idea. :plotting: Hmm. :evillaugh
Rotfl_and_Lol 03-26-07, 04:02 PM	I don't think that damaging the caster is right thing. Negative levels that don't heal normally, but after a long time seem better. Trick with Fort save should be changed so there is caster level or will save, so no bonuses from multiclassing to less caster level classes occur. I think I will rather stick to my first method and exchange some psionic powers XP cost to their magic equivalents components (greater metamorphosis XP cost -> 1000 gp focus).
trapspringer 03-26-07, 04:18 PM	Symantic type note: a focus isn't expended, a component is. I think the suggested rate for the mod is something like 25gp/exp. I bet you would find that balances fairly well.
Xavon 03-26-07, 09:22 PM	I don't think that damaging the caster is right thing. Negative levels that don't heal normally, but after a long time seem better. Trick with Fort save should be changed so there is caster level or will save, so no bonuses from multiclassing to less caster level classes occur. I think I will rather stick to my first method and exchange some psionic powers XP cost to their magic equivalents components (greater metamorphosis XP cost -> 1000 gp focus). But negative levels will not only decrease the caster's HP, but also their skills and spell casting...
DreadArchon 03-27-07, 11:43 AM	But negative levels will not only decrease the caster's HP, but also their skills and spell casting... Ooh, that could be a good system. What if those casting a spell that formerly had an XP component had to make a Fort save (DC determined by XP needed, of course, but difficult even for the easiest XP components) or take level drain? You could let them heal it in the usual fashions, but they'd still have to take time to do so. They are, essentially, temporarily paying the XP cost with their caster levels. (Bonus: They can cast a lower-level XP-based spell with reckless abandon, even in the absence of healing, if they really need to--until they run out of caster levels.)
The_Basilisk 03-29-07, 01:01 AM	If I played a game with no XP components, I'd make as many spells I could permanent. I would cast gate on every encounter past 17, I would do everything I could. XP costs are there for a reason.
Krusk 03-29-07, 01:48 AM	There is a proof on the board somewhere that shows how it actually benifits the caster to spend small ammounts of xp each level and in the end he gets a net gain of more. ill fish around for it. Its is based off the logic of, i am level 3, about to go to 4. i spend 50 xp. everyone in my party goes to level 4, i am 50 xp away. Now i am a lower level fighting higher CR. I gain more xp. so it is possible for me to jump ahead of the others. something to think about befor saying paying xp is a bad thing.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-29-07, 03:12 AM	The PHB says that the going rate for experience point components is 5 gp per experience point (and that's only what NPC casters will charge). That means wish requires a 25,000 gp gem, 25,000 gp of djinn blood, or something else, which makes total sense considering that it can create up to 25,000 gp of stuff. This is also supported by the RPGA, which lets characters who can craft magic items do so at 70% (what it would come out to if they paid 5 gp per experience point instead, 5*.04 is .2, or 20%.), and which I allow in my campaigns as a way of making nonadventuring artisans viable mechanically. So I'm going to disagree with all of you, 25 gp or 50 gp per experience point is needlessly prohibitive.
Patrick Draken-Korin 03-29-07, 06:25 PM	I prefer (nonlethal) damage over negative levels, at least partially, because I just don't like negative levels or permanent level loss. I also must agree with Thomar_of_Uointer, that 5 Gp per point of Xp is quite reasonable. For 25 or 50 Gp per Xp, that should buy you a focus item (for that specific spell). Hmm. Maybe 5 Gp * Xp for a material componenent, and 5 Gp * spell level^2 * Xp for for a focus component? How many level 1 spells have an Xp cost? That would be 25,000 Gp to cast wish once, or 2,025,000 Gp to cast it as often as you like. I think that's about balanced (Note for if you play epic, I'd not allow the focus item to be used any time the Xp requirement would be above 5,000; then make inherent bonuses cost 5,001 Xp). And permanency? 5,000 Gp for permanent darkvision. Isn't that equal to a slotless magic item? Even the ones that are cheaper than an equivalent item... these can be dispelled and they won't reactivate (or at least be ready to activate) within 1d4 rounds. Eh, it's an idea anyway.
Witchcraft 03-29-07, 06:59 PM	What about the DM? Couldnt the DM say NO! Everyonce and while? I think that the idea of having XP going away (exchanging it for money) would be better. Or one could just add a craft reserve for the wizard (just like the Artificer). ~~~Witchcraft~~~
Krusk 03-30-07, 12:19 AM	What about the DM? Couldnt the DM say NO! Everyonce and while? I think that the idea of having XP going away (exchanging it for money) would be better. Or one could just add a craft reserve for the wizard (just like the Artificer). ~~~Witchcraft~~~ unearthed arcana details a system where each item creation feat gives you x craft points to be spent instead of xp. You also gain some points at level up, and there are feats that do nothing but add craft points. page 97ish.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-30-07, 02:14 AM	And permanency? 5,000 Gp for permanent darkvision. Isn't that equal to a slotless magic item? Even the ones that are cheaper than an equivalent item... these can be dispelled and they won't reactivate (or at least be ready to activate) within 1d4 rounds. Yeah, a dispellable slotless item! Turning it around, charging 1 xp per 5 gp in components, is also workable. It's also a very good variant rule if you enforce components and foci and your PCs keep forgetting the buy them when they have the spells prepared. Focuses are a little more difficult. Maybe you could have the PC spend a one-time XP cost to "imprint" the spell on himself, maybe with a tattoo or similar item. Of course, this is pointless (or a cool way of giving psionics material components) if you're using psionics...
Millennium 03-30-07, 09:21 AM	I don't think that damaging the caster is right thing. Negative levels that don't heal normally, but after a long time seem better. That's going to hurt a lot more than an XP penalty would, given that by definition you can't spend an XP cost if it would cause you to lose a level. Honestly, that's the thing I like about XP penalties. XP is a commodity that many casters don't want to give up easily, but it doesn't really incur any mechanical penalties and it's easy enough to earn back.
TheDarkLord 03-31-07, 02:29 AM	I've been looking for ways to get rid of XP cost for things as well. After all, what kind of achievement is made by sacrificing experience gained? That said, I use a variant "Component Casting" with spells that require an XP. For spells that normally require an XP expenditure, I instead make it an Item sacrificed that cost's an amount in the neighborhood of 5gp for XP. Though I specifically do not allow gold to be used. The Item's for such components cannot be bought at your local magic shop or whatever, but must be gained through active searching or adventuring. I am also working on tweaking the Craft point system. Though my world is a High Magic type of world, scrolls and Items that involve spells above 6th level cannot be bought in the world. Thus the need for higher level characters to craft their own weapons and items. The current Craft system in UA just doesn't quite cut that. Spellcasters horde such Items out of both general greed and for their own Personal Saftey (after all, such Items can be used against them effectively as well :D).
Rotfl_and_Lol 03-31-07, 09:48 AM	Craft system would be good if it would work with spells/powers. I want some system that would encourage things like writing scrolls (my players don't do it, even as wizards). Also I don't like that psionics lag behind magic. XP cost vs focus... Changing every XP cost to 5x that gp cost wouldn't work on all spells (using wish to make cash for example), unless there would be something that would allow caster to pay the cost later. Nonlethal damage wouldn't help things that are cast in fights. Thanks all, but I'm waiting for more suggestions.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-31-07, 11:52 PM	Changing every XP cost to 5x that gp cost wouldn't work on all spells (using wish to make cash for example), unless there would be something that would allow caster to pay the cost later. No, see... Wish has a 25,000 gp cap (on nonmagical items at least, most sane DMs require the caster to have enought money or raw materials on hand to make magic items with wish). If you charge 5 gp per xp, that's a 25,000 gp material component.
Kursk 04-01-07, 01:45 PM	XP component is bad thing, because it affects only the caster, even when other party member benefits from it. Nah, spell casters are already more powerful than non-casters. No need to unbalance even more.
Rotfl_and_Lol 04-02-07, 02:52 PM	No, see... Wish has a 25,000 gp cap (on nonmagical items at least, most sane DMs require the caster to have enought money or raw materials on hand to make magic items with wish). If you charge 5 gp per xp, that's a 25,000 gp material component. That's what I'm talking about. No way to get cash from wish. That's little problem, and can be ignored, but it does exist. Normal wish can make some cash when you really need it and can't get it quickly. And balancing casters by forcing them to pay XP is very bad way to balance...
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-02-07, 03:10 PM	That's what I'm talking about. No way to get cash from wish. That's little problem, and can be ignored, but it does exist. Normal wish can make some cash when you really need it and can't get it quickly. And balancing casters by forcing them to pay XP is very bad way to balance... Well, you can always pay experience points in place of the component, right? Besides, most high-level spellcasters will get better money for their magic by selling spell services. A spell that spontaneously creates money without any penalty is unbalanced at almost any level.
Rotfl_and_Lol 04-02-07, 04:40 PM	I didn't said that creating cash should be allowed. That would be OP, and I just want some balance, that wouldn't hurt gameplay. When I allow players to use both systems, should I allow them to "heal" XP drain? What do you think about 10 gp per XP? If caster doesn't have cash right now, he could just pay it later, but at double cost. Also ability burn (it's somewhere in psionics) is cool thing, but it's unsuitable to wish-like spells (wish -> rest -> repeat). I think that burning 2 con for casting greater metamorphosis would be balanced, and not dangerous for the caster. That would need serious amount of free time though... IMO 1xp -> 5 gp seems best for non-epic things.
DreadArchon 04-02-07, 06:31 PM	XP component is bad thing, because it affects only the caster, even when other party member benefits from it. Oh, you could also use these (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a) rules, if you're worried about party balance.
Rotfl_and_Lol 04-03-07, 10:25 AM	I know about those rules (I said it in first post), and they fix 2 things: making items, and party balance. But I said: I'm searching a way to remove XP components, not transfer them. There are 2 main reasons I want to do this: My party, and XP system. First won't use XP costing things, and second requires much writing and looking into the books (it would be much easier to have XP in SRD instead of heavy book taking much too much place).
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-03-07, 12:30 PM	IMO 1xp -> 5 gp seems best for non-epic things. Oh? No, I think it's just fine. Epic spells require epic amounts of experience, right? Besides, if you used the "just spend 5 gp per xp" rule, you simply wouldn't have epic spells with experience components.