Replacing monstrous HD with class levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Replacing monstrous HD with class levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gadren
05-27-07, 08:19 PM Ok, so as you all know, creatures with racial hit dice can basically never be effective casters.
I was thinking about it, and one way a "monstrous" pc can get around racial hd would be to get energy drained before gaining class levels to drop the hd to 1, and purposely failing the fort saves, then regaining the xp as the class you wanted.
While this works with the RAW, I believe, it is kind of silly.

So, what would you think about a variant that when a PC with monstrous HD gains enough xp for a level, he instead replaces one of his racial hd with the level instead off adding it "on top". In the short run, this seems like a bad deal, as you just gained a bunch of experience to *not* go up a level, but with the self-correcting nature of the exp system, you still might be better off if you are bent on playing, say, a satyr bard.

What do you think?
Morwen
05-27-07, 08:31 PM That doesn't necessarily sound unbalanced. I like it :)
Zyrusticae
05-27-07, 09:03 PM Makes sense. It's still kinda funny, paying for levels you already have, but yeah.

Of course, I go around this problem entirely by using Lotus Crane's Rebalanced Races (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=596634), but it isn't a solution for everybody (seeing as how there are a number of races not presented an' all that).
blowfish
05-27-07, 11:52 PM Glad I'm not the only one who thought of this. I plan to try it out next campaign.
Gadren
05-28-07, 04:26 AM How refreshing to post an idea, and not have a million people tell me I'm an idiot for it! :D
Arcade
05-28-07, 09:34 AM I've considered something similar to this and it's not too far oof from LA buy-off. Now to really evaluate it, we need to find some decent creatures with racial HD and little or no LA and see how it would work out in the long run.
Morwen
05-28-07, 01:33 PM Having thought about it a little bit, I've decided that the only potential problem is with creatures that have spellcasting capabilities.

For instance, a Rakshasa casts spells as 7th level Sorcerers, have 7 HD and +7 LA. After using the system 7 times you'll still be ECL 14, but now cast as a 14th level Sorcerer.

However, that still doesn't seem problematic (You'll still have 7 levels less worth of HD than normal 14th level Sorcerers). Creatures with many racial hit dice, low amount of LA, and spellcasting capabilities could be troublesome though.

For instance, consider a juvenile Steel Dragon (Dragons of Faerūn). They have 13 HD, +4 LA, and casts spells as 7th level Sorcerers. After using this 13 times, it would be ECL 17 and cast spells as a 20th level Sorcerer.

Looking at that example, I'd advocate some kind of limitation to how often you can "buy off" your racial hit dice. Perhaps once every two levels?
Arcade
05-28-07, 02:38 PM When you look at the dragon example, though, you realize that this dragon is actually sacrificing power for a long time.

First, replacing a dragon hit dice with a sorcerer hit dice is painful. You BAB goes down every other level, you reflex and fortitude saves go down, you lose 4 hit points on average, and you skill points go down as well. In many ways, your scavenging your body to enhance your magical abilities.

Until you start replacing the majority of your racial hit dice, your spellcasting powers will be too low to be of much use, but your combat abilities will become outstripped since they're degenerating. for a stretch, you're going to be a mid-level sorcerer/mid-levle fighter, which is not a great combo.

Finally, this system, like LA buy-off, should be used to try and equalize the differences between characters, not give them free abilities. So this dragon, part of a 17th level party, should be expected to continue adventuring with the rest of the party as they gain levels. The idea is that your ECL 17 is for determining XP you gain, not necessarily a strict measure of what power you're supposed to stick around at. After all, the rest of the party wants to keep beefing themselves up. So by the time you buy off your 13 racial hit dice, the rest of the party is between 20th-21st level and stocking up on Epic feats. And this is assuming you didn't die during all those higher level encounters where you were at a diminished power.

The point is, it may hurt the character to overuse this system, which means a restriction is likely unecessary.
Witch
05-28-07, 03:03 PM It doesn't make sense.

Let's take, for example, the Balor.
"Because you can now cast spells, you lose hit points, base attack bonus, saves and skill points!"

Fact is, creatures with racial HD can be effective spellcasters. Not as PCs, no - but that doesn't mean they can't be effective spellcasters.

If you want to have them gain this ability easier, just allow for gestalting racial HD and class levels, rather than replacing.
Zyrusticae
05-28-07, 04:49 PM Wait, that's a great idea... gestalting monster HD with class levels - why didn't I think of that? It makes more sense - the character wouldn't be losing anything, but it wouldn't be gaining anything for free, either. Hmm.
strenoth
05-28-07, 05:20 PM mmm, for the caster level thing... using the magic rating system also helps a lot.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/magicRating.htm
Morwen
05-29-07, 01:27 AM Finally, this system, like LA buy-off, should be used to try and equalize the differences between characters, not give them free abilities. So this dragon, part of a 17th level party, should be expected to continue adventuring with the rest of the party as they gain levels. The idea is that your ECL 17 is for determining XP you gain, not necessarily a strict measure of what power you're supposed to stick around at. After all, the rest of the party wants to keep beefing themselves up. So by the time you buy off your 13 racial hit dice, the rest of the party is between 20th-21st level and stocking up on Epic feats. And this is assuming you didn't die during all those higher level encounters where you were at a diminished power.

Right, but then, since you'll be lower ECL than the rest of the party you'll also gain a lot more experience for those encounters than they will. And consider an entire party of Dragons, all of which performed these buy-offs :)
User5127
06-16-07, 09:45 AM Having thought about it a little bit, I've decided that the only potential problem is with creatures that have spellcasting capabilities.

For instance, a Rakshasa casts spells as 7th level Sorcerers, have 7 HD and +7 LA. After using the system 7 times you'll still be ECL 14, but now cast as a 14th level Sorcerer.

However, that still doesn't seem problematic (You'll still have 7 levels less worth of HD than normal 14th level Sorcerers). Creatures with many racial hit dice, low amount of LA, and spellcasting capabilities could be troublesome though.

For instance, consider a juvenile Steel Dragon (Dragons of Faerūn). They have 13 HD, +4 LA, and casts spells as 7th level Sorcerers. After using this 13 times, it would be ECL 17 and cast spells as a 20th level Sorcerer.

Looking at that example, I'd advocate some kind of limitation to how often you can "buy off" your racial hit dice. Perhaps once every two levels?

I think this would follow under what feats and other abilities that bump your caster level do.

IE: even with this method of buy off your caster level can never go higher than your current HD amount.

So the rakasha in your example could swap all HD for socerer levels and still only cast as a 7th level (but he can pick up fighet levels in addition and his caster level would go up because of his racial ability)

And the dragon would get the same deal.

EDIT: this also allows this variant to mesh more easily with LA buy off. (otherwise the rakasha in the example would cast 7 levels higher than his ECL when he buys off the LA)
BillTheManiac
06-16-07, 10:39 AM Idea: Assign a class level value to each HD of stats. I once calculated, using the Uber Generics system, how much one commoner level was worth. Add 20 points and that gives you how much a PC level is worth. Let me calculate here:

2+int mod skills: 1 point
1/3 all saves: 3 points
1/3 feat: 6.666 points
1d4+con HP: 5 points
1/4 ability score: 10 points
1/2 BAB: 2 points
So a PC level is about 48 points.
Then you calculate the point value of each race, add 28, and look at the ratio.
Gadren
06-20-07, 02:32 AM I think this would follow under what feats and other abilities that bump your caster level do.

IE: even with this method of buy off your caster level can never go higher than your current HD amount.

So the rakasha in your example could swap all HD for socerer levels and still only cast as a 7th level (but he can pick up fighet levels in addition and his caster level would go up because of his racial ability)

And the dragon would get the same deal.

EDIT: this also allows this variant to mesh more easily with LA buy off. (otherwise the rakasha in the example would cast 7 levels higher than his ECL when he buys off the LA)

Uhm... the LA buy-off variant doesn't let you buy off more than 3 levels before level 20.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gadren 05-27-07, 08:19 PM	Ok, so as you all know, creatures with racial hit dice can basically never be effective casters. I was thinking about it, and one way a "monstrous" pc can get around racial hd would be to get energy drained before gaining class levels to drop the hd to 1, and purposely failing the fort saves, then regaining the xp as the class you wanted. While this works with the RAW, I believe, it is kind of silly. So, what would you think about a variant that when a PC with monstrous HD gains enough xp for a level, he instead replaces one of his racial hd with the level instead off adding it "on top". In the short run, this seems like a bad deal, as you just gained a bunch of experience to not go up a level, but with the self-correcting nature of the exp system, you still might be better off if you are bent on playing, say, a satyr bard. What do you think?
Morwen 05-27-07, 08:31 PM	That doesn't necessarily sound unbalanced. I like it :)
Zyrusticae 05-27-07, 09:03 PM	Makes sense. It's still kinda funny, paying for levels you already have, but yeah. Of course, I go around this problem entirely by using Lotus Crane's Rebalanced Races (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=596634), but it isn't a solution for everybody (seeing as how there are a number of races not presented an' all that).
blowfish 05-27-07, 11:52 PM	Glad I'm not the only one who thought of this. I plan to try it out next campaign.
Gadren 05-28-07, 04:26 AM	How refreshing to post an idea, and not have a million people tell me I'm an idiot for it! :D
Arcade 05-28-07, 09:34 AM	I've considered something similar to this and it's not too far oof from LA buy-off. Now to really evaluate it, we need to find some decent creatures with racial HD and little or no LA and see how it would work out in the long run.
Morwen 05-28-07, 01:33 PM	Having thought about it a little bit, I've decided that the only potential problem is with creatures that have spellcasting capabilities. For instance, a Rakshasa casts spells as 7th level Sorcerers, have 7 HD and +7 LA. After using the system 7 times you'll still be ECL 14, but now cast as a 14th level Sorcerer. However, that still doesn't seem problematic (You'll still have 7 levels less worth of HD than normal 14th level Sorcerers). Creatures with many racial hit dice, low amount of LA, and spellcasting capabilities could be troublesome though. For instance, consider a juvenile Steel Dragon (Dragons of Faerūn). They have 13 HD, +4 LA, and casts spells as 7th level Sorcerers. After using this 13 times, it would be ECL 17 and cast spells as a 20th level Sorcerer. Looking at that example, I'd advocate some kind of limitation to how often you can "buy off" your racial hit dice. Perhaps once every two levels?
Arcade 05-28-07, 02:38 PM	When you look at the dragon example, though, you realize that this dragon is actually sacrificing power for a long time. First, replacing a dragon hit dice with a sorcerer hit dice is painful. You BAB goes down every other level, you reflex and fortitude saves go down, you lose 4 hit points on average, and you skill points go down as well. In many ways, your scavenging your body to enhance your magical abilities. Until you start replacing the majority of your racial hit dice, your spellcasting powers will be too low to be of much use, but your combat abilities will become outstripped since they're degenerating. for a stretch, you're going to be a mid-level sorcerer/mid-levle fighter, which is not a great combo. Finally, this system, like LA buy-off, should be used to try and equalize the differences between characters, not give them free abilities. So this dragon, part of a 17th level party, should be expected to continue adventuring with the rest of the party as they gain levels. The idea is that your ECL 17 is for determining XP you gain, not necessarily a strict measure of what power you're supposed to stick around at. After all, the rest of the party wants to keep beefing themselves up. So by the time you buy off your 13 racial hit dice, the rest of the party is between 20th-21st level and stocking up on Epic feats. And this is assuming you didn't die during all those higher level encounters where you were at a diminished power. The point is, it may hurt the character to overuse this system, which means a restriction is likely unecessary.
Witch 05-28-07, 03:03 PM	It doesn't make sense. Let's take, for example, the Balor. "Because you can now cast spells, you lose hit points, base attack bonus, saves and skill points!" Fact is, creatures with racial HD can be effective spellcasters. Not as PCs, no - but that doesn't mean they can't be effective spellcasters. If you want to have them gain this ability easier, just allow for gestalting racial HD and class levels, rather than replacing.
Zyrusticae 05-28-07, 04:49 PM	Wait, that's a great idea... gestalting monster HD with class levels - why didn't I think of that? It makes more sense - the character wouldn't be losing anything, but it wouldn't be gaining anything for free, either. Hmm.
strenoth 05-28-07, 05:20 PM	mmm, for the caster level thing... using the magic rating system also helps a lot. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/magicRating.htm
Morwen 05-29-07, 01:27 AM	Finally, this system, like LA buy-off, should be used to try and equalize the differences between characters, not give them free abilities. So this dragon, part of a 17th level party, should be expected to continue adventuring with the rest of the party as they gain levels. The idea is that your ECL 17 is for determining XP you gain, not necessarily a strict measure of what power you're supposed to stick around at. After all, the rest of the party wants to keep beefing themselves up. So by the time you buy off your 13 racial hit dice, the rest of the party is between 20th-21st level and stocking up on Epic feats. And this is assuming you didn't die during all those higher level encounters where you were at a diminished power. Right, but then, since you'll be lower ECL than the rest of the party you'll also gain a lot more experience for those encounters than they will. And consider an entire party of Dragons, all of which performed these buy-offs :)
User5127 06-16-07, 09:45 AM	Having thought about it a little bit, I've decided that the only potential problem is with creatures that have spellcasting capabilities. For instance, a Rakshasa casts spells as 7th level Sorcerers, have 7 HD and +7 LA. After using the system 7 times you'll still be ECL 14, but now cast as a 14th level Sorcerer. However, that still doesn't seem problematic (You'll still have 7 levels less worth of HD than normal 14th level Sorcerers). Creatures with many racial hit dice, low amount of LA, and spellcasting capabilities could be troublesome though. For instance, consider a juvenile Steel Dragon (Dragons of Faerūn). They have 13 HD, +4 LA, and casts spells as 7th level Sorcerers. After using this 13 times, it would be ECL 17 and cast spells as a 20th level Sorcerer. Looking at that example, I'd advocate some kind of limitation to how often you can "buy off" your racial hit dice. Perhaps once every two levels? I think this would follow under what feats and other abilities that bump your caster level do. IE: even with this method of buy off your caster level can never go higher than your current HD amount. So the rakasha in your example could swap all HD for socerer levels and still only cast as a 7th level (but he can pick up fighet levels in addition and his caster level would go up because of his racial ability) And the dragon would get the same deal. EDIT: this also allows this variant to mesh more easily with LA buy off. (otherwise the rakasha in the example would cast 7 levels higher than his ECL when he buys off the LA)
BillTheManiac 06-16-07, 10:39 AM	Idea: Assign a class level value to each HD of stats. I once calculated, using the Uber Generics system, how much one commoner level was worth. Add 20 points and that gives you how much a PC level is worth. Let me calculate here: 2+int mod skills: 1 point 1/3 all saves: 3 points 1/3 feat: 6.666 points 1d4+con HP: 5 points 1/4 ability score: 10 points 1/2 BAB: 2 points So a PC level is about 48 points. Then you calculate the point value of each race, add 28, and look at the ratio.
Gadren 06-20-07, 02:32 AM	I think this would follow under what feats and other abilities that bump your caster level do. IE: even with this method of buy off your caster level can never go higher than your current HD amount. So the rakasha in your example could swap all HD for socerer levels and still only cast as a 7th level (but he can pick up fighet levels in addition and his caster level would go up because of his racial ability) And the dragon would get the same deal. EDIT: this also allows this variant to mesh more easily with LA buy off. (otherwise the rakasha in the example would cast 7 levels higher than his ECL when he buys off the LA) Uhm... the LA buy-off variant doesn't let you buy off more than 3 levels before level 20.