Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tenzhi 02-20-04, 05:12 AM	"Madness!" you say. And allowing triple-class gestalts ta' boot! With the addendum that two-class gestalts require 50% more XP to advance, and triple-class gestalts require 100% more XP to advance. This means that on a 1-20 scale, when a single-classed character reaches 20th level, a two-class gestalt is at 16th level and a three-class gestalt is at 14th level. Throw in using an averaged HD between the classes and we have the multi-classes of bygone years. Perhaps it IS madness, but it is madness that amuses me. :behold:
Banpai 02-20-04, 06:53 AM	If you think its the right for your game then there are no reasons to stop you, but i have a question if you replace multiclassing with this how to handle PrCs then ?
DarkThoughts24 02-20-04, 07:05 AM	KUMPAI! congratz on that am sure it will work out
Tenzhi 02-20-04, 08:19 AM	Originally posted by Banpai If you think its the right for your game then there are no reasons to stop you, but i have a question if you replace multiclassing with this how to handle PrCs then ? My first inclination is to option the optional PrC right out of the game. Some of them are neat, but in the end they're just a 3rd Ed rendition of Kits with prerequisites thrown in. My second (and less powerful) inclination is to allow them, but still make the player follow the new gestalt~multi-class XP chart. Now, a better question is how I'll be handling favoured classes. Right now I'm thinking that normally, only the four basic classes (Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, and Cleric) will be allowed for the double- and triple-class combinations. A race with one of the other classes as a favoured class will be able to work that class into any combination, and a race with one of the four basic classes as a favoured class will be allowed to make any double-class combination with their favoured class. Humans (and any other race with a favoured class of "any") will be allowed to advance in any triple- or double-class combination.
Tenzhi 02-22-04, 01:22 AM	Bump. What can I say? More suggestions and comments couldn't hurt, plus I'm awaiting the delivery of my book upon the arrival of which I may add more to the idea here.
Ertai Planeswalker 02-23-04, 02:01 PM	Triple gestalt is not worth it, because you're going to need too much high stats.
leopardmessiah 02-23-04, 04:58 PM	True, stats are much more important in D&D, but the psion can be dependant on ANY stat, so just add that to a two-class combination. I miss multiclassing, and this looks good, but there should be some way to add in prestige classess. Perhaps you could lose you're progression in one part of the gestalt to take a similar prestige class (like assasin instead of thief)?
Xorial 02-23-04, 05:04 PM	Originally posted by Tenzhi "Madness!" you say. And allowing triple-class gestalts ta' boot! With the addendum that two-class gestalts require 50% more XP to advance, and triple-class gestalts require 100% more XP to advance. This means that on a 1-20 scale, when a single-classed character reaches 20th level, a two-class gestalt is at 16th level and a three-class gestalt is at 14th level. Throw in using an averaged HD between the classes and we have the multi-classes of bygone years. Perhaps it IS madness, but it is madness that amuses me. :behold: If you wanted to do this, on one of the previous threads I suggested simply giving the standard gestalt an ECL of +2. When the math is worked out, they will be the same as what you want. 16th, approaching 17th, when normal characters get 20th. I imagine that triple gestalts would be +3 ECL, though i agree that it would be too much & pointless for the triple. If you think about it, Gestalt characters are 1e & 2e multiclassed characters. You advanced them one at a time, but you used the best of the respected abilities. You used the Fighter's THAC0, the Magic-User's spells. Whatever. The Gestalt system was propably the original attempt to convert older edition characters to 3e. the older multiclassed characters were hard to determine what "level" they were. A elf MU 6/ Fighter 5 was what? He wasnt really a 11th level, but he was more than a 5th or 6th.
Xorial 02-23-04, 05:09 PM	Originally posted by leopardmessiah True, stats are much more important in D&D, but the psion can be dependant on ANY stat, so just add that to a two-class combination. I miss multiclassing, and this looks good, but there should be some way to add in prestige classess. Perhaps you could lose you're progression in one part of the gestalt to take a similar prestige class (like assasin instead of thief)? That is what you do. The recommendation was to drop the combo PrCs, like EK & Arcane Trickster, as they would be too confusing when used. UA talks about dropping one of you classes out of a slot to pick up a PrC in its place. It also suggests making PrCs that can take BOTH of the slots. In that case, the EK would have d10's, good will & Fort saves, full BAB, & Bonus feats nearly every level...along with a couple of unique abailities. Mainly because gestalting a Fighter/Wizard gives you a bonus feat of some sort nearly every level on its own.
Keldorn2198 02-23-04, 05:11 PM	Monsterous triple-gestalt combos: Bard/Cleric/Sorc (only need wis and cha) Barb/Fighter/Ranger (screw hi wis, you are a beat stick with legs) Bard/Sorc/Wiz (again, only 2 stats needed) Cleric/Sorc/Wiz (Need 3 good stats, but ultimate caster) Cleric/Fighter/Monk or Cleric/Fighter/Paladin or Cleric/Monk/Paladin (Monks and Paladins already need multiple good stats) The trick is that a triple-gestalt PC should be more specialized rather than less.
Skeptical Clown 02-23-04, 08:22 PM	At some point, can't you just assume that if there's an ability, you can do it?
Tenzhi 02-25-04, 01:06 AM	Originally posted by Xorial If you wanted to do this, on one of the previous threads I suggested simply giving the standard gestalt an ECL of +2. I considered that early on, but I soon discarded it in favour of paying more XP to advance as it's a more gradual means of balancing advancement. I am giving more consideration to the percentages involved, though I'm thinking perhaps +40% for double-classed and +80% for triple might be more appropriate. If you think about it, Gestalt characters are 1e & 2e multiclassed characters. Not only have I thought about it, I commented as such in the "What is Gestalt (a guide)" thread as well as an aside comment in the original post of this thread. ;) --- Now, as to the concerns regarding triple-classed characters - I agree that it would be very difficult to do effectively. But then, it always has been difficult to effectively pull off a triple-classed character. And PrC - if I were going to use them, I would treat them as a normal gestalt starting from level 1 as far as BAB, Saves, HD, and skills are concerned. Then I would just work the PrC abilities in at later levels.
Tenzhi 02-25-04, 04:32 AM	I've got the XP thing nailed, now. I've decided to use the Level-Independent XP Awards variant. And using that variant, I can simply require 2*XP for double-classed gestalts and 3*XP for triple-classed gestalts and have the levels work out whilst simultaneously mirroring the multi-classing days of yore even more closely. :cool:
Xorial 02-25-04, 09:04 AM	If you would do the math, a +2 ECL is close to a 30-40% "penalty". You just dont have to re figure a chart, it's done already. A +3 ECL is close to 80% more XP required to level.
Tenzhi 02-26-04, 01:29 AM	Originally posted by Xorial If you would do the math, a +2 ECL is close to a 30-40% "penalty". You just dont have to re figure a chart, it's done already. A +3 ECL is close to 80% more XP required to level. Yes, but with the Level Adjustment you can't start out with a 1st level party and in a party of your equivalent character level you're left 2-3 levels behind from the very beginning. It's not very good to only have 1HD and be travelling around with 3rd-4th level characters. Using adjusted XP cost to gain levels, the character can start out at 1st level and they gradually pay the cost over time so that by the time they're 2 levels behind the rest of the party the HD discrepancy is no longer a real issue. This is a much better way to handle the issue (IMO), and is well worth the scant few minutes it took me to re-figure the XP chart. Incidentally, the 2*XP on the Level-Independent XP table also works out to about a +2 Level Adjustment in the end which gives the adjustment a greater sense of meaning - levelling in 2 classes costs twice as much XP.
Xorial 02-26-04, 05:16 PM	If you pay twice as much XP, then you might as well have full benefits from both classes, which a gestalt does not. He gets the best of the 2, NOT both. He is not twice the power, so a chart for a 50% increase would be more appropriate. That has been posted already on another gestalt thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2666725#post2666725).
Tenzhi 02-27-04, 02:11 AM	Originally posted by Xorial If you pay twice as much XP, then you might as well have full benefits from both classes, which a gestalt does not. He gets the best of the 2, NOT both. He is not twice the power, so a chart for a 50% increase would be more appropriate. That has been posted already on another gestalt thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2666725#post2666725). On the Level-Independent XP award chart, twice the XP works out to a +2 Level Adjustment in the end. If you're advocating a +2 Level Adjustment for Gestalts, then on the Level-Independent XP award chart twice as much XP is more appropriate than a 50% increase. On the standard XP chart, I agree that a 40-50% increase is more appropriate, but that's an entirely different beast from the Level-Independent XP award chart.
Marshall 02-27-04, 02:42 AM	MILITARY LOGIC If the enemy is in range, so are you. Incoming fire has the right of way. Don't look conspicuous: it draws fire. The easy way is always mined. Try to look unimportant; they may be low on ammo. Professionals are predictable; it's the amateurs that are dangerous. The enemy invariably attacks on one of two occasions: When you're ready for them and when you're not ready for them. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at. If your attack is going well, you have walked into an ambush. Hey Xorial, you left out the best one... 10. Friendly fire, isn't.
Xorial 02-27-04, 01:28 PM	Originally posted by Marshall Hey Xorial, you left out the best one... 10. Friendly fire, isn't. I had that sent to me in an e-mail from a co-worker. I thought that it was really good & decided to share. Being in the National Guard, it just felt right to put in my sig. You may not be seeing the entire sig, it has 22 items listed for those sayings.
Stuntman 02-28-04, 09:58 PM	Here's my attempt at handling Gestalts as multi-class characters: For a gestalt character with two classes, the character suffers a -50% XP penalty. In other words, they gain half as much XP as normal. This penalty is reduced by 20% if one of the two classes is a favoured class of the character's race. This means that for half-elves and humans, they only get a -30% XP penalty if they strictly stick with just the gestalt combo class. An elven wizard/anything gestalt would also suffer only -30%XP penalty. For gestalt characters with more classes, you can extrapolate the XP gained. A character with 3 classes gains 1/3 as much XP or has a -66 2/3% XP penalty. A character with 4 classes gains 1/4 as much XP or has a -75% XP penalty. If one of the classes is a favoured class, the XP penalty is still reduced by 20%. A human 4-class gestalt has a -55% XP penalty. I'm not sure about level adjustments, but I think that a +1 level adjustment for each class beyond the first may be appropriate. I haven't worked it out. Actually I was working this whole thing out as I am writing, so some adjustments may be required. I'm considering not allowing multi-classing for gestalts unless it is a PrC. I don't think it would be much of a loss at all anyway. If a gestalt is to have the best of all classes, he should be very devoted to sticking with the gestalt class combo.