Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meldread 12-07-07, 08:02 PM	I have finally had enough of some of the flaws I am perceiving in the D&D System. So I am putting forward some ideas for changes that would radically alter the way it works while still keeping some of the crunch. In the end, the system would ideally be slightly more free-form, while still having a core set of rules to fall back on. I apologize if this comes off as haphazard. All of this is simply brainstorming. 1. The biggest change I want to enact is the elimination of levels. I dislike the way power scales in D&D, where a level 20 can effectively take on an entire army of almost any nation without breaking a sweat. 2. More to that end, I want power to remain relative. This means that even the most powerful wizard should have some measure of fear of typically "common" foes such as goblins. 3. I want to enable more customization of characters, while at the same time maintaining the "feel" of Prestige Classes. I like PrC's thematically but feel that they are used incorrectly and not toward their full role-play benefit. 4. I want ability scores to REALLY matter. 5. I want the system to work through the carrot and stick method, giving the DM the ability to "lead" the players in the direction he wants and reward them for good play. 6. I want death to be a real possibility, always, but at the same time I want the penalty for character death to be less penalizing. 7. I am not going for low-magic, but I want the system to take magic as POWER into consideration. The entire system of magic needs to be revamped. 8. Power should be about the character, not the items that he has equipped. 9. The alignment system should be eliminated completely. 10. How should divine magic play a role in things? How should it be different from arcane magic? 11. The system should get out of the way and let everyone get on with the game. It should not be clunky. This is one reason the very core of d20 is being used - people are familiar with it. It should not be intrusive, and once you've played it a few times you should not have too constantly refer to the rules. It should be intuitive, simple and streamlined. 12. Outside of the very core mechanics DM's should be able to modify the system more to taste and setting. There are no doubt more, but this is a nice start. I will try and add to this as I get the time and read the feedback posted here. Quick Overview: The system should use the same basic d20 rules, and someone familiar with d20 should be able to pick up the new system relatively quickly, within an hour or less. With luck, they should also find it simpler and more flexible as well. Instead of levels and experience, the PC's should gain Build Points or BP. BP will be used as a metagame purchasing system allowing players to develop their characters. Most things should be considered "feats". Though calling them something else may prove more effective. AB, AC, Saving Throws and Health Points will be increasable through magic and feats instead of levels. At the end of the day, AB, AC and Saving Throws should be on par with a level 6 or 7 PC by traditional standards. BP will also be used to purchase spells, but more importantly PC's should be able to craft their own home-made spells. Magic should be useful, but dangerous as well as flexible. There should be many different ways to craft a fireball, applicable to a variety of different situations. A PC should have access to all of his spells all of the time. The system should work similar to how Psionics works currently. PC's should be encouraged to spend their BP wisely, and in the event of character death non-spent BP should roll over to their next character. Build Points & Feats Build points should be given out by DM's as a reward. At least one BP should be given out at the end of each playing session. They should be used to encourage players to take risks with their characters, as well as to reward them for good role-playing and smart thinking. Build Points are used to purchase Feats, which range in difficulty to learn from basic to grand master. A character is no longer simply someone who uses a katana, he is a grand master katana wielder. ----------------------------- | Points | Difficulty | |-----------------------------| | 1 | Basic | |-----------------------------| | 2 | Proficient | |-----------------------------| | 5 | Expert | |-----------------------------| | 8 | Master | |-----------------------------| | 12 | Grand Master| -----------------------------
ppirilla 12-07-07, 10:10 PM	Have you ever looked at Mutants and Masterminds? Sure, it was designed as a Supers game, but it uses d20 in its core and does a number of the things you're trying to do here.
BENEVOLENT_DM 12-07-07, 10:54 PM	Wow this should really be multiple threads. 1,2, and 3. Classless: (I will probably be fighting ane well organized army of Trolls just for saying this.) This will allow more customization of charecters. You can control certain skills or feats by the characters needing to be trained in game. Leveless: Halve XP and give an equall amount of "training points" the XP must be used to improve abilities that the character used in the adventere hence experience points. The training points can be used on things the character learns between adventures. A new combat sytem that gives a commoner (not the class since that would be nixed) the chance, although small, of seriously wounding or killing a powerful character. If an experienced character single handedly tried to wipe out a village, he may succeed. He has abilities most people only dream of. However there will always be a chance that the on well placed or lucky blow with kill him.
Ace_of_time 12-07-07, 11:01 PM	You have to down play M&M to get a working system in the D&D rule set. It is about the same as coming up with your own system. Seem more like world of darkness. Just fix the XP system. Never like just 3 point per game. Maybe give points based on the CR. If the monster they fight is a CR 5 and they beat it each one gets 5 points.
Meldread 12-07-07, 11:30 PM	BENEVOLENT_DM- Classless: (I will probably be fighting ane well organized army of Trolls just for saying this.) This will allow more customization of charecters. You can control certain skills or feats by the characters needing to be trained in game. I agree and this is my intent, however I will make it more clear. I do however, intend to keep PrCs as a concept, but turn them into feats. So instead of taking levels in a PrC you'd have to qualify for it (like normally) and then take the feat. Each time you take the feat you'd gain some powers or abilities associated with that PrC. Leveless: Halve XP and give an equall amount of "training points" the XP must be used to improve abilities that the character used in the adventere hence experience points. The training points can be used on things the character learns between adventures. Yes, there will be no levels at all, nor will there be experience points. In place of experience points and levels players will receive Build Points (BP). They will use BP to purchase feats to improve their characters. Ace_of_time- Maybe give points based on the CR. If the monster they fight is a CR 5 and they beat it each one gets 5 points. Part of the reason I went with Build Points instead of XP is because I wanted to step away from the mindset that, "To gain XP I must kill things." I want the game to be more about role-playing than roll-playing. Thus BP rewards should be given out as encouragements for good role-playing, not for combat unless it was a particularly good combat. I think of BP as a DM's method of quality control. You want to reward good quality playing so you hand out a reward - BP - which then in turn encourages the PC's to act in a like manor again. The current system of D&D is very combat heavy because that is where you get all the rewards. You have to down play M&M to get a working system in the D&D rule set. It is about the same as coming up with your own system. Seem more like world of darkness. Just fix the XP system. Never like just 3 point per game. Yeah, I know I am basically coming up with my own system. I am cutting D&D down to its very bone and rebuilding it from the ground up. It'll be my version of 4th Edition.
Ace_of_time 12-08-07, 05:13 PM	That is what they do in world of darkness. I wasn't saying to just give for only combat thing. Say that you want your players to get into a castle without being caught and they do. Well you would still have to give that a CR. Then at the end of the game they would get BP for what they did in game and you give them some more BPs for good role playing. I was just saying that some times in WOD you fight 15 enemy and get 3 points and then the next game find where the enemy are hiding out and get there, No combat, and get three points. My players didn't mind get the points for good roleplaying but want something for what they PC did also. You don't really need to rebuild much. Just make a list of things and how much it cost to get that. Like a HD cost xBPs and then a BAB upgrade cost xBPs and so on. After that all you need is to decide how much points to give and for what.
molten_dragon 12-08-07, 05:37 PM	It seems to me like you're trying to take D&D and turn it into a completely different game. Why not just try a different game to begin with? It would be a lot easier.
A_Ninja_Errant 12-08-07, 07:01 PM	You're talking about GURPS. Only difference between what you're saying and GURPS is d20 as opposed to 3d6 system. EDIT: admittedly GURPS has no Prc mechanic....but it doesn't really need on either, if you want to design a group of people who do something in a specific way, just do it. Almost anything you can think of is already included in GURPS 4th edition, and anything you want that isn't can usually easily be plugged in.
The_Levitator 12-08-07, 08:14 PM	It seems to me like you're trying to take D&D and turn it into a completely different game. Why not just try a different game to begin with? It would be a lot easier. Cuz it's fun! ;) I'm a tweaker myself, and I get a lot of enjoyment from customizing a game system to better reflect the world and story I'm trying to create. Using a system that is out of the box more suited to your vision is definitely easier, but what's the fun in that? :D MD does bring up a valid point though, especially if a DM isn't comfortable with making sweeping changes. Once you start changing things in a game system, you often find side effects of those changes that require more changes. It's a lot like writing a song. At some point, you just need to put the pen down and record the dang thing. In D&D, you need to know when to put the pen down and just play the dang thing! :)
Ace_of_time 12-08-07, 09:43 PM	I think since you are going for more of a role playing feel type less on combat that you should make the players unluck the pro class in game. Then they could gain a better feat selection. I would still make them get the requirments.
Etarnon 12-08-07, 11:02 PM	Your solution is a skill based game like GURPS. Seems to be exactly what you are seeking, OP.
Ace_of_time 12-08-07, 11:51 PM	OK I'll ask. GURPS?
A_Ninja_Errant 12-09-07, 12:02 AM	Steve Jackson's Generic Universal Role Playing System. Completely based on skills and stats, point buy for everything, no levels, no classes, and uses d6s for all rolls. Actually a really good system, I'm not sure I would want to use it for fantasy because GURPS characters are pretty (semi-realistically) fragile, which makes it very hard to do a lot of the classic "high fantasy" stuff, but that sounds to me like what the OP wants anyway.
BENEVOLENT_DM 12-09-07, 12:08 AM	Look at a supplument called "buy the numbers" for classless and levelless, and "GRIM-N-GRITTY COMBAT" to keep players from killing villages for fun. You could borrow from these rules or use them wholesale. I am a tinkerer myself, but unless you are single without a fulltime job, who has the time?
Ace_of_time 12-09-07, 12:23 AM	I think he just wants to change the leveling up and XP not the whole d20 system. I wouldn't know what to do with out my 20s. Of course I played WOD and it uses d 10.
BENEVOLENT_DM 12-09-07, 12:50 AM	4. I want ability scores to REALLY matter. This will take some big changes to the system. You could add an ability modifier as a percentage of a skill/BAB/save. For example you could change modifiers for abilities as follows. 12-13 +20% 14-15 +40% 16-17 +60% 18-19 +80% ect. So if you have a pc with an 18 Int and 5 ranks in spellcraft he would have a modifier of 9, but if he had 20 ranks he would have a modifier of 38. I just whipped this up, and 38 is really high, but maybe if you lowered the ability of magic gear to increase intelegence or help with skills something like this could work. 5. I want the system to work through the carrot and stick method, giving the DM the ability to "lead" the players in the direction he wants and reward them for good play. I think the carrot and stick method is already there. It called an adventure hook. If you want more power over the players direction its called railroading, and players get sick of it quickly. 6. I want death to be a real possibility, always, but at the same time I want the penalty for character death to be less penalizing. This seems a little contradictry. Player death being a real possiblity keeps the players cautious, while lessening the penalty for death lend more to recklessness. 7. I am not going for low-magic, but I want the system to take magic as POWER into consideration. The entire system of magic needs to be revamped. I think if you want ability scores to matter more, you will want to go low magic. One thing you could do to alter magic without change most of the mechanics is to treat it like secret weopons tech. Magic Items are the equivalant of Nuclear secret in todays world (The most powerful weopons of warfare). So would these items be available in the store? I don't think so. Would the materials for these items be available in kit form in the market place for those with the proper knowledge to create? wrong again. Those in power would closely gaurd Items and materials, so the only way to get them is from people in power, or by defying people in power. This can lead to some very fun adventure hooks. 8. Power should be about the character, not the items that he has equipped. 9. The alignment system should be eliminated completely. Could you be more specific as to why you want to do this, and what goals you have for it? 10. How should divine magic play a role in things? How should it be different from arcane magic? This is one area that I miss from second edition. Divine magic was a separate magic that came from Dieties. In Third edition, Many of the spells are the same, and it seems like you are tapping the same power source by different means. I know this is not WOTC way of describing it, just the feal I get. Here is one way to explain things. Magic is a force that is always there that most people are not at all aware of. Dieties and other creatures are naturally in tune with magic Dieties, or there agents grant magic to those who have shown there faithfulness. The only question would by, why won't my Diety grant me spells on the Wizard/Sorcerer list. Wizards have broken the code of magic through study. Perhaps a diety got the origional wizards started. There could be a myth like Promethius and fire. You could exclude the Divine only spells since the mind of humans hasn't or can crack the code for these. Sorcerers and Bards are born different. The alingnment of stars, Dragon blood, or the act of some diety gives them an inate ability to use magic.
Meldread 12-09-07, 03:07 AM	Thanks for all the responses everyone. I'm actually going to check out GURPS 4E and see what it is like. I'll see what I like about the system, and if I like it I'll use that. If not I'll come back here and begin taking what I like and applying it here to some form of d20-GURPS System Fusion. EDIT: Some things that I may want to change in GURPS would be the use of the d6's and their ability point system. I haven't played GURPS 4th ED, but I know they keep those two things in it. It may be because I have simply looked at it so long, but the D&D Ability Points (STR, DEX, CON, WIS, INT, CHA) has stuck with me. I like the way it looks and feels. GURPS Ability Points just feel too... condensed. I am not saying they are but at a glance it looks and feels that way. As for the d6's it uses a Bell Curve. I'm not against a Bell Curve system because they have their merits. I might even like it more, but if I am going for Bell Curve for some reason I just prefer FUDGE Dice. In the beginning I was actually going for some twisted marriage between FATE and d20. (FATE: http://www.faterpg.com/ ) It would keep the "spirit" and "feel" of FATE (simplicity and flexibility) while using the core (very, very core) "crunch" of d20. I realize that I am stripping d20 to the bone, and cutting out everything D&D. However, that was exactly the intent. However, now that GURPS was brought up, I do believe that once I've had time to look over the GURPS 4th ED Rules there may be some type of three way marriage between d20, FATE, and GURPS.
Meldread 12-09-07, 04:38 AM	Added Points 11 & 12 to the original post: 11. The system should get out of the way and let everyone get on with the game. It should not be clunky. This is one reason the very core of d20 is being used - people are familiar with it. It should not be intrusive, and once you've played it a few times you should not have too constantly refer to the rules. It should be intuitive, simple and streamlined. 12. Outside of the very core mechanics DM's should be able to modify the system more to taste and setting.
ppirilla 12-09-07, 01:20 PM	So, to simplify, your goals are to create mechanics 1) To take advantage of d20's 6 Ability Scores 2) To assign BAB's, Saves, and Skills that rely heavily on ability scores 3) that rolls d20 + the modifiers from (2) to do anything 4) to stay out of the way Once again, I'm drawn to Mutants and Masterminds for inspiration, though I don't have it in front of me, so I'll make up some numbers. At first level they have ~15 points. 2 points = +1 BAB, 1 point = 1 skill rank or save bonus, 3 points = 1 feat or class ability, 4 points = d6 Hit Die or +1 to an ability score. Limit skill ranks, BAB, and saves to current level. Award points when you feel like it, raise level frequently enough that your players don't get forced into spending points where they don't necessarily want them. You still have to figure out spellcasting. Personally, I would use psionics and just make them buy the PP and powers through existing feats, but that's up to personal tastes.
Ace_of_time 12-09-07, 09:29 PM	How do you limit their power with out levels?
Meldread 12-10-07, 12:36 AM	You will be able to monitor their spending of Build Points. Additionally, there will be caps on certain things, such as how much BAB you can purchase with BP and the like which will solve most problems. The critical area is magic, but I have plans to ensure that it is perhaps at once more powerful than in standard D&D but at the same time more dangerous. So there would be a balance there. Additionally, at the moment I imagine magic will be used MUCH less than in standard D&D and "pure" wizards may be more "rare".
Ace_of_time 12-10-07, 10:59 PM	You could make it like an unlocking thing. I mean still make them buy everything with BP but also allow them to unluck the next levels with BP. IE: He/she could buy all the stuff for 1st level like BAB or HD (apart not out the same time) or spend some BPs to open up 2nd level upgrades. Still making them get the 1st levels ones first. Also I think It would be a must to redo the character creation method. Might want to start with that and then work out from there. Magic: You could use the recharge method and let them buy the spells with BPs. This would limit magic without using spells per day and allow more uses with balance.
Ranger REG 12-11-07, 08:48 PM	There are no doubt more, but this is a nice start. I will try and add to this as I get the time and read the feedback posted here. Sad to say, but you don't want to play Dungeons & Dragons. Pure and simple. Just admit that and find a more suitable fantasy genre game for you. :bored:
Qlawdatt 12-11-07, 10:06 PM	I can definitely sympathize with your desires. My current game has a few min-maxers in it (I am one of them) and combat feel less like a role playing experience and more like a loop hole finding, video game mathathon. But sometimes i love that. I like being able to make my character the best it can be. But something I have realized is that while this is really engaging and entertaining, it isn't nearly as much fun as when I first played dnd. Now I don't know about anyone else, but the first time I played dnd I had NO idea what was going on. Had never heard of the players handbook, or DMG. And even when I finally did get a PHB I didnt have any of the other books. None of us had any idea what was going on. I had a fourth level ranger casting fourth level wizard spells. And trying to figure out what a black pudding could do when you only have the one line description in the PHB (it wasn't until later that i go the rest of the books) was nuts. But!! It was FUN. Maybe I am imprinting my own nostalgia for a game that seems truly fantastic and less like video game. But I do hope that you find what you are looking for. And I would like to hear your thoughts of the games people have suggested to you.
Meldread 12-11-07, 11:07 PM	GURPS looks almost EXACTLY like what I am looking for and in addition to being almost exactly what I want, it is modular so I can make changes to the system easier than I can in D&D. We'll see how things go, but I think I'm definitely going with GURPS 4.0.
Xavon 12-11-07, 11:24 PM	Your solution is a skill based game like GURPS. Seems to be exactly what you are seeking, OP. You beat me to it. This sounds pretty much just like GURPS.
senecalp 12-11-07, 11:34 PM	Even without anything concrete I like I what I've read. I've always been a points buy fan and doing away with levels sounds like a daunting yet incredible idea. I liked the point of unlocking level abilities of classes. I don't think this is how access to higher level spells should be gained though. Magic is a tough one, but as someone mentioned earlier and as I've been considering to replace the Sorcerer class, the use of Psionics could be a partial solution or a basis for it. I'm with you on wanting to stay with D&D, even if its only remnants of the current game. For one, to pull from all the monsters. Monsters being my biggest wonder about your proposal. I'm thinking all that would need to be determined is a chart of how many BP is roughly equivalent to each level for determining the appropriate CR the party can handle. You mentioned a commoner having a chance to kill a hero, I call this a kill shot. Called shots are something that has been argued for a long time and probably not the solution. Crits are a potential way to go though possibly too dangerous (maybe rolling 2 x 20 and then rolling a hit). Controlling hit points has its merits but you greatly limit what fascinating creatures the players are able to take on (dragons!) and gimp them in general. However its done, the concept of a lowly cutpurse sneaking up behind a high level wizard and sinking a dagger into the base of his neck killing him instantly needs to be able to happen. Seneca
Breetai 12-12-07, 01:05 PM	I remember playing Gurps and thinking to myself... Okay this is so simplified it's not customizable like I heard, silly, and no fun. Does 4.0 have more options? I Still prefer fantasy hero once you have it down it's like going Mac, it's awesome but no one else uses it.
Ace_of_time 12-12-07, 07:20 PM	OK I'll ask. GURPS? Is this in a book or something? I can't find it.
Etarnon 12-12-07, 07:56 PM	GURPS is all over Ebay, 3rd edition, and 4e. As for options there are i think over 100 books for it now, campaign settings, etc. Google GURPS and SJG. I'm 99% sure GURPS is what the OP is looking for. We have people that run it here in western ohio, alternated with 3rd ed, d20 Spycraft 2.0, and Battletech..and Alternity.
Hippokrene 12-12-07, 09:59 PM	6. I want death to be a real possibility, always, but at the same time I want the penalty for character death to be less penalizing. I have to ask, how could player death be 'less penalizing'? A Get Out of Hell Free card?
Roog 12-12-07, 11:46 PM	2. More to that end, I want power to remain relative. This means that even the most powerful wizard should have some measure of fear of typically "common" foes such as goblins. Do you mean goblins - or a goblin? 4. I want ability scores to REALLY matter. One thing that may form a part of this could be removing Ability Score requirements for spell-casting, if you want to make all ability scores to matter to all characters. 6. I want death to be a real possibility, always, but at the same time I want the penalty for character death to be less penalizing. Less penalizing for the character or the player?
Meldread 12-13-07, 06:13 AM	Do you mean goblins - or a goblin? It depends on the situation - literally. A PC should be able to see their power, and dispatch such foes in a convincing and non-contrived manor. Yet at the same time, bad tactics, improper foresight among other things should spell death for even the most powerful. Even a lowly goblin can slash your throat in your sleep. Or distract you while two others come up on you from behind. Less penalizing for the character or the player? It should be less penalizing for the player, not the character. In general I dislike the idea of raise the dead and resurrection. Without levels and lower hit points, saves, AC, etc. death would be MUCH more common. (At least ten times as much.) Since BP is the basis for character building and creation, its my thought that any unspent or saved BP should transfer over to a new character. This allows the player to keep rewards for their accomplishments (since that is how BP are rewarded in the first place) as well as maintaining some power between old and new characters.
Ace_of_time 12-13-07, 09:54 AM	I'm starting a new world soon. If it is ok with you I'd like to keep brain storming on here. Even if you don't use it I t could help me. I found a Character sheet but it was 2.0 and nothing show some of the rule. Do they have their own web site?
A_Ninja_Errant 12-13-07, 05:46 PM	I'm starting a new world soon. If it is ok with you I'd like to keep brain storming on here. Even if you don't use it I t could help me. I found a Character sheet but it was 2.0 and nothing show some of the rule. Do they have their own web site? http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/basic/ I assume you meant GURPS, right? This is the link to their description of the basic 4.0 books on their site.
Ace_of_time 12-13-07, 07:40 PM	Yes I was thank's. I'm going to look and see if I can convert it like I did M&M super class.
Ace_of_time 12-13-07, 08:28 PM	I don't know guys/girls. I looked through the free download and it still screams world of darkness only with d6 instead of d10. I'm I like it but the XP system doesn't really reward for what the character did. To me that is the whole point in RPG, the character and roleplaying it. I have those books already, the main book, were wolf, and mage. After a few games the XP system just gets old and then My players say let role PCs and D&D. I think I'll keep levels and make them upgrade level. Limit scores to 18s till tenth (not including racial) and use cost table from points buy. Take away epic. Upgrade levels cost 100 BPs, BAB 10, HD 25, Base save upgrades 10, class features cost 50(limit three till 20th), feats 5, skills 1class/ 2cross, and Adding a class skill past 15. Character creation I still want some randomness in it. So that's 205 BP need to start. That a HD, 25 for scores, 10 class skills at 1 ranks, and a 5. Also put the train thing in so they have to train a week to spend BPs. I'll give 1 point per CR and start everyone out with 10 point and take of for bad Roleplaying/ meta gaming. That is all I have for now. I'll so 5d20 bp to start with a base of 55. That would put the average at 107.5.
A_Ninja_Errant 12-13-07, 09:32 PM	I don't know guys/girls. I looked through the free download and it still screams world of darkness only with d6 instead of d10. I'm I like it but the XP system doesn't really reward for what the character did. To me that is the whole point in RPG, the character and roleplaying it. I have those books already, the main book, were wolf, and mage. After a few games the XP system just gets old and then My players say let role PCs and D&D. Mmmmmm I dunno man, I think the xp system in GURPS rewards better than in WoD, although I've never played in an ongoing WoD campaign but I have read the books. What I mean is, I think you can get more with a BP in GURPS than in WoD or at least you get more of them. Also the XP system they use is only a guideline, you're free as DM to assign xp or BP or whatever for whatever reason at whatever time. If you want to reward good roleplaying, or accomplishing story goals, do it! Or is the problem more with the fact that theres no specific xp for defeating enemies? Another interesting thing they have in GURPS(though this might be a 3rd edition thing that didn't make it into 4th, I lost my 4e books) is that if you want to really get in depth you can figure out a time sheet for the skills a character is training in during his off time, and when you accumulate enough training time you gain a BP in that skill. A bit of extra effort, but could be worthwhile if you don't mind some micro-management.
ppirilla 12-13-07, 10:56 PM	I urge you to make the starting build's points much less random. 5d20 has such a huge variation that you could end up with some major problems in party dynamics. I would do something more like ~6d6+180
Ace_of_time 12-13-07, 11:18 PM	Their XP system is alittle better then WOD but I think the skills system in WOD is better. Any way I like D&D's skill system for them most part and don't want to get rid of the best part of D&D. Love the combat better. To the starting BP been thinking maybe do it like wealth. 4d6 times 10 That would give me an adverage of 140 or 5d6 times 10 for 175.
Deschain of Gilead 12-13-07, 11:53 PM	I just skimmed this, so pardon me if this isn't germane. I've played a lot of the systems mentioned (GURPS, M&M, WoD, and of course D&D). GURPS is radically different than WoD, in a lot of ways. XP rewards are much more immediate (WoD is glacial), there's enormous customization of the campaign world and what you want to allow (rather than WoD's interesting, but fairly immutable mythos), and combat couldn't be much more lethal. In fact, if you're looking for something more realistic, where a few goblins will always be a bit of a challenge for a PC, GURPS is probably the way to go. There are lots of rules options to make it less realistic, but the baseline is kind of the opposite of D&D--going toe to toe w/ a bunch of guys, even weak guys, is really tough. As a tangent, I ran a game set in the Silmarillion and I specifically avoided GURPS b/c I wanted a more epic feel where PCs could theoretically smash squadrons of orcs (and I made Tolkien orcs relatively tough, like CR 4) and that wasn't happening in GURPS. Someone else mentioned M&M, a system I adore for the supers genre. It's worth mentioning that pretty much the same system exists for some fantasy games made by Green Ronin, I believe it's called True 20. IIRC there's a romantic fantasy setting called Blue Rose, Thieves World, and probably a few others by now. It may be up your alley in that it's fairly similar to D&D (it's D20 but damage checks rather than hit points). There may be a purely point-based version of character creation that would be very similar to M&M and GURPS, but I think the baseline are reasonably generic classes like Warrior or Arcanist that pick specializations and get feats like every other level to allow you to fill out your character. It seems neat. I'm more of an optimizer and quite used to D&D myself, so I kind of chafe under having fewer prc options, but it may be what you're looking for.
Ace_of_time 12-15-07, 11:44 PM	I alway wanted to try the one about the angels. ( can't remember the name) I'm going with the Advan school character creation start. The go to school for 4 years 8 classes a year and use skills as the classes to upgrade ability scores. It = out to a 32 points buy. I most of the time give 1/4 a HD each years plus skill points and we always role player the school years. It was the best time my players every had rolling a PC. Every starts with their racial stats. Thinking of using that here as a starting point for all PC's. By the 4th year they should have upgraded to a good point. And they will have done it them selves. Magic: I'm thinking of going sorc for all spell casting and just letting them choose when gain that class feature whether arc or divine. Weapons: Also thinking of letting them gain prof in weapon for each weapon in stead of just getting all at once. Still might let armor come in groups But not going to count them as feats just reg upgrades. Armor group 25 and 5 for each weapon prof. The one thing my player and me like about WoD was that it take longer to roll a PC but that it did feel me personal. You did feel like it was your person when you were done. They also like the combat system, not as good as they do D20 but they didn't hate it. They didn't like the HP system or having to figure out what tpye of mark goes where and how.
Dither 12-16-07, 02:55 AM	It depends on the situation - literally. A PC should be able to see their power, and dispatch such foes in a convincing and non-contrived manor. Yet at the same time, bad tactics, improper foresight among other things should spell death for even the most powerful. Even a lowly goblin can slash your throat in your sleep. Or distract you while two others come up on you from behind. What you're talking about there isn't stat- or combat-based, it's plot-based. It's not even what could be called "story-based" because it reeks of 'plot contrivance.' A system doesn't need to allow for a goblin IN COMBAT to be able to take out a high-level PC... the DM can do that any time he wants by simply declaring "the goblin slits your throat in your sleep, roll up a new character." Seriously, it's when all creativity is gone that silly things like "the epic sorcerer gets destroyed by the meddling of a group of teenagers and their dog" actually become possible. When we're talking "realistically" about "heroic" and "epic" characters, we're talking about people that have passed beyond the realm of possibility. Truly, epic-level characters don't have their throats slit by goblins... their comrades show up out of nowhere in the nick of time and save them... or the goblin suddenly suffers a change of heart or hesitates a moment too long and the hero wakes up and catches him, etc. When we're talking about "high-level" characters, all those silly little "accidental" deaths don't actually happen anymore. There's no reason why a really powerful character should actually be able to be destroyed any more easily than a crazily-powerful artifact. For example: having to smash the artifact on the flesh of the deity that created it... ...and don't kid yourself by saying things like "well, a hobbit was able to destroy the One Ring, and THAT was easy..." 'cause you're just deluding yourself. Thousands of people died, entire armies were destroyed, cities razed and plenty of heroes bought the farm to DISTRACT Sauron so that a hobbit could nearly be destroyed by the Ring's power after nearly getting caught before just barely managing to destroy the ring (on accident). To summarize: There's no reason why the combat system needs to reflect what is clearly a decision that needs to be made on the DM's part anyway. No goblin should be able to sneak up to an equivalent 17th-level character and "accidentally" slit his throat. That's a load of BS.
Roog 12-16-07, 04:57 AM	Truly, epic-level characters don't have their throats slit by goblins... their comrades show up out of nowhere in the nick of time and save them... or the goblin suddenly suffers a change of heart or hesitates a moment too long and the hero wakes up and catches him, etc. Dither, your idea of how a high level game should play out sounds a lot more 'Plot Based' than Meldread's When we're talking "realistically" about "heroic" and "epic" characters, we're talking about people that have passed beyond the realm of possibility. I assume that you mean "passed beyond the realm of the possible". But even if thats true we still need to know the boundaries of realm that they now inhabit. If the game is 'plot based' all we required of the character's vulnerabilities is that they work for the story, and if it is not 'plot based' then we still need good reasons to remove characters vulnerability to normal human weaknesses - and new boundaries to their capabilities established. To summarize: There's no reason why the combat system needs to reflect what is clearly a decision that needs to be made on the DM's part anyway. No goblin should be able to sneak up to an equivalent 17th-level character and "accidentally" slit his throat. That's a load of BS. That depends in large part on what you consider 17th-level to mean, in terms of the type of story/game/narrative/event-sequence/genre that that character will take part in. Just because its easy to read one meaning of high-level from the D&D rules, does not mean that reading is universal or that other contradictory meanings are not possible. Meldread's idea seems to be to choose a desirable meaning first, and then make any changes needed to the rules to make that meaning work.
Illithid Tentacles 12-16-07, 06:55 AM	1. ...elimination of levels.... 2. I want power to remain relative... 3. ...more customization of characters... 4. I want ability scores to REALLY matter. 5. ...carrot and stick method... 6. I want death to be a real possibility, always... 7. ...I want the system to take magic as POWER into consideration... 8. Power should be about the character, not the items that he has equipped. 9. The alignment system should be eliminated completely. 11. ...intuitive, simple and streamlined. 12. Outside of the very core mechanics DM's should be able to modify the system more to taste and setting. This almost perfectly describes GURPS. Look into it
Meldread 12-16-07, 07:12 AM	Dither- You have more or less directly addressed my problem with the entire D&D system. The higher level a character obtains, the more he leaves "reality" behind, entering into a realm beyond our mortal understanding - a realm beyond the character's own understanding. In effect, they are no longer "mortal beings" but are for all intents and purposes are "gods." When 99% of the average D&D world is filled with level 1 NPCs, it presents a huge number of problems for that worlds internal consistency. In order too properly suspend disbelief a world must be internally consistent; it must be believable within its own set of laws. Simply put, a D&D World cannot logically exist without looking drastically different from anything we have ever seen. It would probably look closer to the Dark Sun campaign setting than anything else. In a D&D world there are people who are just so far out of the scope of normalcy that it is impossible for them to not be a threat to society in some sort of way. Good aligned NPCs and PCs all have powerful and evil enemies. Existing within society invites the wrath of those enemies down upon the innocent people who cannot hope to defend themselves. Evil aligned NPCs and PCs have neither sympathy nor care for the defenseless or the innocent and will thus dominate them and discard them without a thought. Think for a moment how that will color the perceptions of powerful people within the world. Going further, would that level 6 Aristocrat who is King really exist when all it would take is a single wizard of an evil bend to turn him into a puppet? Once it has happened once, as it must, how can the people ever put faith in their king again? The only official D&D setting that has attempted to address this problem has been Eberron, but it only acknowledges the problem without actually fixing it. My goal here was not to create a system in which powerful and epic PCs and NPCs were effectively gimped, but to balance the scales in such a way that a world such as the one being portrayed could reasonably exist within its own set of laws.