Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mythSSK 10-14-05, 08:04 PM	Alright, so I'm looking to revamp the magic system for our gaming sessions - I want to keep it as a low-magic, low-psionics world (but stll include both), and there are several things I would like to change, but I'm not sure how to go about it. If anyone has seen anything that could be useful to me, or has any ideas, it would be a great help (even if you have seen another gaming system which could help me). I want to get rid of Vancian casting, but I also don't want to go the route of spellpoints. My goal would be something similar to the way magic is handled in Call of Cthulhu d20 - anyone can learn spells, and you can cast as often as you like, but this is balanced by something. I'm not sure what I want it to be balanced by, but I shy away from the ability damage balancing factor in CoC... so what could I balance it with? Percentages that something will go horribly wrong? (this is the only thing I can think of, but I don't like it terribly much) I want to clearly deliniate the difference between arcane, divine, and psionic. Arcane spells are going to be completely differently themed than divine spells, and psionics will be different again. Divine is going to be strictly non-offensive and mostly dealing with divination, banishment and typical 'holy' and 'natural' type spells, arcane is going to mainly follow the theme given in CoC. What other things can I use to clearly show the difference between the different magicks? I was also thinking of making it require taking a Feat before you can cast arcane magic, another seperate feat before being able to cast divine, and a seperate feat again for psionics - perhaps having a tree of feats you have to take in order to access more powerful spells. What does everyone think? Has anything similar to this been done before? Any ideas on things I could incorporate?
syrinth 10-14-05, 08:14 PM	one way would be to make the casting of the spell taxing to the caster. Whenever they cast a spell they take 1d4(maybe 1d6) points of subdual damage with a fort save for half? Or maybe after a number of spells per hour equal to their con modifier they must make a fort saving throw or become fatigued and exhausted afterwards? Meh, just some thoughts off the top of mah head.
mythSSK 10-14-05, 09:10 PM	one way would be to make the casting of the spell taxing to the caster. Whenever they cast a spell they take 1d4(maybe 1d6) points of subdual damage with a fort save for half? Or maybe after a number of spells per hour equal to their con modifier they must make a fort saving throw or become fatigued and exhausted afterwards? Meh, just some thoughts off the top of mah head. Subdual damage is an idea I like, because subdual damage wears off. Hmmm... How about say, having different spells dealing varying amount of subdual damage - with a fortitude save for half equal to 10 + the spell's level (not sure I like this, as it becomes easier to make the save the high level you are... a DC 15 fortitude save for a 5th level spell for say a 9th level character [which is when a wizard would normally have that level of spell available] isn't that difficult to make, or is it? What do you think?) Could be something along the lines of: 1st level = 1d4, 2nd level = 1d6, 3rd level = 1d8, 4th level 2d6, 5th level 3d6, 6th level 4d6. I think I don't particularly want above 5th or 6th level spells available. Too much/too little? What does everyone think? --- I also like the idea of using the fatigued and exhausted conditions. Perhaps I could use them for psionics... I'll work something rough out for this soon.
syrinth 10-14-05, 10:34 PM	yeah, I JUST noticed that I failed to mention the saving throw or that the dmg would increment. I imagined 1d4/level so a ninth lvl spell would deal 9d4 sub dual dmg on a failed save assuming access to 9th lvl which could drain like half your hp lol
FlameLover 10-14-05, 11:57 PM	I like the idea of 1d4/spell level non-lethal damage but cut the fort save - it makes Great Fortitude or whatever it's called way too good and makes Fighter/Wizard crosses even better. Make it once you've got half your max hp of non-lethal you're fatigued and then at 1/4 exhuasted. Example: Nick the Wizard has 34 maximum non-lethal hp. He casts a level 5 spell - meaning he takes 5d4 damage. He rolls 10 and so his non-lethal hp becomes 24. When he later casts a level 6 spell (6d4) he rolls 12 lowering his non-lethal hp to 12. Since twelve is less than half (17) but more than 1/4 (8) Nick is now Fatigued. If he then cast say a level 5 spell and rolled 7 he'd end up with 5 non-lethal hp left which means he'd be Exhuasted. If he cast enough to reach 0 or less he'd fall unconcious until his non-lethal damage rose above 0 again (which if he ened up with a high - number could be some time). This system is basically how Arcanum (a CRPG based on D&D) handles casting and is a pretty cool way to handle things i think. An important thing though is that in this system non-lethal damage should *not* be healable with anything other than rest/time or items. Otherwise you'll have Clerics healing there nonlethal damage and casting infinitley (although this could also be solved by removing magical healing).
syrinth 10-15-05, 12:24 AM	Personally I still think the save should be there as the amount of damage can really accrue rapidly for a caster. In the example you gave the caster is limited to just a few mid lvl spells and by that time hes a little poke away from falling over, but meh.
Darrett 10-15-05, 12:50 AM	Just remember that any direct "Nerfing" of spellcasting as a whole will make players less likely to play a caster. Why be a caster who suffers durability damage when you can be a Monk and pummel things to death? If you want to limit magic, try to do so by limiting the number of casters in the game world, rather than hindering their abilities. To reduce players using these classes, you can impose attribute requirements before choosing that class, or limit the party to one spellcaster, divine or arcane.
FlameLover 10-15-05, 12:51 AM	What about a flat 1 nonlethal damage per spell level? That'd give you at level 1 four castings of level 1 spells and unlimited 0 level spells (i've always liked the idea that 0 level spells are unlimited). Also a Wiz20 has *maximum* 80 hp + Con bonus * 20. If we assume a +1 con bonus then you'd get 100hp. That's 11 castings of level 9 spells but requires top rolling every single level. Assuming average rolls you'd get only about 50hp which allows only 50 castings of level 1 spells or 5 level 9 spells. If you did this system though you should seperate normal HP and say EP (Endurance/Energy Points) and make EP a steady progression (so you're ability to cast isn't random).
mythSSK 10-15-05, 02:22 AM	Just remember that any direct "Nerfing" of spellcasting as a whole will make players less likely to play a caster. Why be a caster who suffers durability damage when you can be a Monk and pummel things to death? If you want to limit magic, try to do so by limiting the number of casters in the game world, rather than hindering their abilities. To reduce players using these classes, you can impose attribute requirements before choosing that class, or limit the party to one spellcaster, divine or arcane. I didn't mention this in my original post, but I meant to when I meantioned CoC (it just slipped my mind). I'd like to actually eliminate all full casting classes and replace the spellcasting abilities of the half-casters, and make it so that anyone is able to use magic if they are able to find someone willing to teach them (I kinda hinted at that when I mentioned I was considering needing a feat to be able to cast at all). I did mention that I wanted to keep it as a low-magic world. Basically, I want to use the CoC model for casting. Anybody, regardless of class, can learn spells, but they're very rare, it takes time to learn to use them, and instead of spell slots, casting takes its toll on the caster. Sorry about not making that clear from the beginning. Personally I still think the save should be there as the amount of damage can really accrue rapidly for a caster. In the example you gave the caster is limited to just a few mid lvl spells and by that time hes a little poke away from falling over, but meh. What about a flat 1 nonlethal damage per spell level? That'd give you at level 1 four castings of level 1 spells and unlimited 0 level spells (i've always liked the idea that 0 level spells are unlimited). Also a Wiz20 has *maximum* 80 hp + Con bonus * 20. If we assume a +1 con bonus then you'd get 100hp. That's 11 castings of level 9 spells but requires top rolling every single level. Assuming average rolls you'd get only about 50hp which allows only 50 castings of level 1 spells or 5 level 9 spells. One thing you have to remember is nonlethal damage heals at a rate of 1 per character level per hour. So the Wiz20 in FlameLover's example (I'm eliminating casting classes, though, remember) is going to be back at full strength in 5 hours, no resting required. I don't have too much time online at the moment. More thoughts later.
syrinth 10-15-05, 02:27 AM	True, but five hours the mage probably doesn't have if he's casting lvl 5 spells. Or maybe magic is more utility in your campaign, less combat....
mythSSK 10-15-05, 04:02 AM	True, but five hours the mage probably doesn't have if he's casting lvl 5 spells. Or maybe magic is more utility in your campaign, less combat.... True, but the point was that using FlameLover's system, a level 20 (or even 17) could cast several level nine spells first thing in the morning, then in one hour, he would have regened enough to cast 2 more, then an hour later, enough to cast 2 more... and that's only with him casting level nine spells - all spells with a duration of an hour or longer might as well have their duration changed to "permanent", and on ALL members of his party. Am I the only one who sees something hideously wrong with that? Magic will be more utility then in general D&D yes, as I said in my original post, I want to follow a more CoC-ish theme of magic. That doesn't negate the fact the the suggested system had some flaws. I'm leaning towards the idea of 1d4/spell level non-lethal damage. Although, thinking more on Flamelover's other suggestion... If you did this system though you should seperate normal HP and say EP (Endurance/Energy Points) and make EP a steady progression (so you're ability to cast isn't random). Making a sort of "regenerating spell points" system sounds like a good direction to take this in... --- Ok, how about this: You need the Mage feat to cast spells. Mage [General] By studying arcane knowledge and experimenting with tapping into the greater cosmic forces that govern our universe, you have learned the methods by which you can affect them and use their power for your own ends. Benefit: You gain the ability to cast any arcane spells you may learn. Casting spells is no small feat, and it takes it's toll on the mage. Each character with the Mage feat have a personal pool of spell points that they can use to power spells. The maximum amount of points in the pool is equal to your character level x 5 + bonuses for a high Intelligence modifier (don't know this part yet, bear with me). Spell points regenerate at a rate of +1 per character level per hour, up to the spell point pool's maximum. Casting a spell costs the magic user 1d4 spell points per level of the spell. 0-level spells cost 1 spell point. If a character has no spell points remaining, he may sacrifice hit points to cast spells instead. For every 2 hp of lethal damage the caster willingly takes, 1 effective spell point is generated for the purpose of casting a spell. When a character has used up 50% of his maximum spell points, he becomes fatigued. In addition to all the usual penalties of the fatigued condition, spellcasters have a harder time channelling the potent energies require for their spells, and their bodies start to show signs of stress. If a fatigued character attempts to cast a spell, he must first succeed on a Concentration check, with the DC being equal to 10 + the spell level. If he succeeds this check, the spell is cast normally. If he fails, the spell fails, and the spell points are still wasted in the casting. If a character has used up 75% of his spell points, he becomes exhausted. In addition to all the usual penalties of the exhausted condition, an exhausted character who attempts to cast a spell must first succeed on a Concentration check with a DC of 10 + twice the spell level, with the results of failure and success being the same as for a fatigued character. The fatigued and exhausted conditions must be removed normally for the mage to cast normally again, even if he has regenerated sufficent spell points to put him above 25% or 50% of his maximum spell points. --- I realise this puts all but the most basic spellcasting abilities out of the reach of most 1st level characters, but that's kind of the point. I think this system is too harsh, though, with the fatigued and exhausted thingies. Maybe I should remove them... I don't know. After thinking about it for a while, I don't like suing those conditions for spellcasting. Would it be ok just to remove them completely without changing anything else, or would it be best to insert some other kind of balancing mechanic? I DO like the bit I added about being able to sacrifice hit points in exchange for casting more spells, though. What about this system? How does it look? Keep in mind that I want to keep it low magic, and there are no full casting classes - anyone can learn to cast a spell through the Mage feat.
syrinth 10-15-05, 04:04 AM	um...... what's CoC? Keep hearing it but I don't know what it means...:(
mythSSK 10-15-05, 04:07 AM	um...... what's CoC? Keep hearing it but I don't know what it means...:( Well... My goal would be something similar to the way magic is handled in Call of Cthulhu d20
FlameLover 10-15-05, 08:28 AM	Problem with the HP trading for SP is that all you need to take is a healing spell and you have unlimited casting. If i was going to do it i'd make it reduce your MAX hp by twice the spell's level (1 for cantrips) and this would heal at a rate of 1/day (and you can't get it to heal ANY faster than that although you could make a feat). Anyway this allows you to extend yourself but stops any abuse - even just a few spells over your limit and you've crippled yourself for days. And i'd keep fatigued/exhuasted but it wouldn't be imbalanced if you removed them. It would make the system simpler which is a good thing but i'd be wary of players going right up to there limit and then "stopping" for a few hours. With the conditons they need to suck up penalties for even just casting a couple of times.
polt 10-15-05, 10:19 AM	You might want to take a look at the Fatigue Save Spell system. You can find it here (http://creationforge.blogspot.com/2005/10/fatigue-based-spell-system.html)
mythSSK 10-15-05, 07:54 PM	Problem with the HP trading for SP is that all you need to take is a healing spell and you have unlimited casting. If i was going to do it i'd make it reduce your MAX hp by twice the spell's level (1 for cantrips) and this would heal at a rate of 1/day (and you can't get it to heal ANY faster than that although you could make a feat). Anyway this allows you to extend yourself but stops any abuse - even just a few spells over your limit and you've crippled yourself for days. Yeah, I'm not sure what I'm going to do with healing spells yet. I was definitely going to make them far more restrictive, maybe even go as far as removing them completely. Not sure yet. I just like the trading HP for SP because it meshes so well with a lot of the dramatic type stuff you read in books/see on TV/in movies. As a last resort, the injured wizard can push himself beyond his normal limits to use magic. Blood starts to pour out of his ears, nose, and eyes as the strain of channelling cosmic forces through his body becomes too much to bear, and he focuses enough to produce a final burst of arcane energy to finish off his foe/protect his friends/save the world, then collapses unconcious and dying on the ground... Come on, I can't be the only one who sees the coolness factor in that? I was thinking of bumping it up to a 1 for 3 trade instead of 1 for 2, though. And i'd keep fatigued/exhuasted but it wouldn't be imbalanced if you removed them. It would make the system simpler which is a good thing but i'd be wary of players going right up to there limit and then "stopping" for a few hours. With the conditons they need to suck up penalties for even just casting a couple of times. Yeah, simpler is good, and I'm considering just doing away with the fatigued/exhausted. Really, the main reason for this is I don't particularly like the "50%" and "75%" conditions I used. They really rub me the wrong way for some reason. If I can think of a way to replace the percentages with another method of inflicting the conditions, I'll keep them. You might want to take a look at the Fatigue Save Spell system. You can find it here Your Fatigue Save Spell system is interesting. You don't say it outright in your post, but I take it when implementing the system you're doing away with spell slots? I was actually thinking about making it a Will save instead of a Fortitude save when I made my second post, but then realised that if I use the same casting system for arcane and divine magic then I'd be giving clerics an unfair advantage. You clearly only say "Wizard" when referencing a caster using your system - what about the divine casting classes? Are they using the same system? If so, did you consider that they would have higher saving throws than the Wizard because their main casting stat is Wisdom, and therefore give them (another) large advantage over Wizards? I like how you've extended the fatigued/exhausted conditions by one. Winded/fatigued/exhausted was something I'd considered but then decided against (though I didn't call it winded), as I didn't particularly like the idea of adding an entirely new condition to the game. Then again, I'm still thinking about it. Only thing with your system is I think it's far too easy to make the saves, and it makes casters far more powerful than they would be otherwise. Example: Mialee the 3rd level Wizard has a Will save of +6 (+3 base, +2 iron will, +1 Wis). By your system, to cast a level 1 spell without incurring any penalties, she must beat DC 8 on her save. She fails only on a natural 1. She can realistically cast 5 or 6 level 1 spells before she fails a single save. Then she can rest for an hour and be back at full capacity. Not to mention she can throw in some level 2 spells here and there, and that only increases the DC by 1. Does may example sufficiently illustrate what I mean? Iron Will also becomes a feat that all wizards take, all the time. And if the casting system applied to divine casters as well, then I fear halfling clerics in your campaign. With a 3rd level halfling cleric using the elite array having a Will save of +8 (+1 racial, +3 base, +2 iron will, +2 Wis), they can cast spells even more often than the wizard can. The discrepancy only gets larger as levels are gained, as well. Unless they're casting their highest level spells, wizards are only going to fail their saves on nat 1's. I'm also curious as to how rationalise why it's actually harder for a 20th level wizard to cast a level 1 spell then it is for a 1st level wizard? Or maybe you don't even bother, because as I said, they're only going to fail on a nat 1 anyway.
FlameLover 10-15-05, 08:30 PM	Ok what about making it you get Fatigued after casting MP equal to your CL total, and Exhuasted at 2 times. Hard to explain so i'll give an example: Okay a mage is level 10 (CL10) and has 30mp or whatever. He casts a spell and uses 7 points leaving him with 23mp, so he's fine. He then uses another 4 points lowering his mp to 19: he is now Fatigued since 30 - 19 = 11 and that is more than his CL. If he then cast a spell with 10mp (max you can channel is your CL) he would be down to 9mp and be Exhuasted because 30 - 9 = 21 (over double CL). If your mp was roughly 3 per level this system would work out to about 33%/33%/33% which seems about right to me. If you don't understand what i mean then just say and i'll try and explain it better. But basically instead of percentages it goes off of your CL.
polt 10-15-05, 08:37 PM	I was actually thinking about making it a Will save instead of a Fortitude save when I made my second post, but then realised that if I use the same casting system for arcane and divine magic then I'd be giving clerics an unfair advantage. You clearly only say "Wizard" when referencing a caster using your system - what about the divine casting classes? Are they using the same system? If so, did you consider that they would have higher saving throws than the Wizard because their main casting stat is Wisdom, and therefore give them (another) large advantage over Wizards? I like how you've extended the fatigued/exhausted conditions by one. Winded/fatigued/exhausted was something I'd considered but then decided against (though I didn't call it winded), as I didn't particularly like the idea of adding an entirely new condition to the game. Then again, I'm still thinking about it. Only thing with your system is I think it's far too easy to make the saves, and it makes casters far more powerful than they would be otherwise. Right now I'm only considering using this on the wizards. Because what I don't like about them is that if they choose to do some cool stuff with their magic when roleplaying and interacting with NPCs, they will be totally useless in combat later. So I really didn't have clerics in mind when making this system. And yeah, spell slots is a goner. I know this will let a wizard cast some more first level spells, but is that really a bad thing? The first bunch of levels for a wizards, it's all about casting your one sleep spell, and then maybe your magic missile, if you didn't use that on some mage armor. And then you just hide and maybe use a crossbow or something. Not a lot of fun.
mythSSK 10-15-05, 09:27 PM	I know this will let a wizard cast some more first level spells, but is that really a bad thing? The first bunch of levels for a wizards, it's all about casting your one sleep spell, and then maybe your magic missile, if you didn't use that on some mage armor. And then you just hide and maybe use a crossbow or something. Not a lot of fun. Yes. It is. Although I do agree with you at least in part. At lower levels, a spell like sleep is basically a save or die spell for enemies in a 10ft. burst, and can be used from up to 100ft away. Color spray is fairly nice too. Unless combats always occur within an hour of each other, wizard's will be able to cast something like sleep or ray of enfeeblement every round. Also, mage armor and other similar long-duration spells might as well have their durations changed to permanent. I agree that more lower levels spells = good, but still think unlimited lower level spells = bad. I think your system could use some tweaking, but I do think you're on the right track with what you've got so far :)
mythSSK 10-15-05, 09:51 PM	Ok what about making it you get Fatigued after casting MP equal to your CL total, and Exhuasted at 2 times. Hard to explain so i'll give an example: Okay a mage is level 10 (CL10) and has 30mp or whatever. He casts a spell and uses 7 points leaving him with 23mp, so he's fine. He then uses another 4 points lowering his mp to 19: he is now Fatigued since 30 - 19 = 11 and that is more than his CL. If he then cast a spell with 10mp (max you can channel is your CL) he would be down to 9mp and be Exhuasted because 30 - 9 = 21 (over double CL). If your mp was roughly 3 per level this system would work out to about 33%/33%/33% which seems about right to me. If you don't understand what i mean then just say and i'll try and explain it better. But basically instead of percentages it goes off of your CL. I understand what you mean, and actually, I think this would work well if we used your earlier suggestion of spells costing a flat 1 SP per level of the spell. Only thing I'd want to change if I used this is the regen rate of SP's. --- Honestly though, I liked the bit of randomness that the 1d4/spell level introduced to the system, and if I used the CL system you've suggested with it, it wouldn't really work. Under that system, unless you were over 5th level or so, casting a single 1st level spell would exhaust you. I wanted to make magic harder to use, but not quite that hard. Then again, using your suggested system along with the 1 SP per spell level cost... If a characters max spell points are equal to his character level x 3, this allows a 1st level caster to cast 3 spells right off the bat. Casting one will be ok, second one will fatigue him, third will exhaust him. That actually doesn't look bad at all. Let's look at a higher level character. A 5th level character has 15 spell points. He can cast 15 first level spells, 7 second level spells, or 5 third level spells (or combinations thereof). This seems a bit much to me, considering how I want to restrict spells down to either 5th or 6th level, and he can cast quite a bit. What about if we use the ACTUAL spell points rules, and have a level 1 spell cost 1 SP, a level 2 spell cost 3, a level 3 spell cost 5, etc, etc. The 5th level character can now cast 3 third level spells, 5 second level spells, or 15 first level spells (or combinations thereof). That looks much better to me. What about a 10th level character? He has 30 SP. He can cast 30 first level spells, 10 second level spells, 6 third level spells, 4 fourth level spells, or 3 fifth level spells(or combinations thereof). Looks good to me. I'm liking it. What about regen rates, though? I would like spell points to regenerate over time, but I'm unsure what sort of rate I should look at. Any ideas? PS. Thanks for all your help so far, guys :D. PPS. FlameLover, just noticed you're also from Australia. Good to see another aussie around!
Koga:The ninja trick 10-15-05, 09:58 PM	Okay, how's this for starters? One, there are three casters. Wilder, Sorcerer, and Cleric. Powers work as before, where you have to add points to implement more depth. But now instead of paying power points to manifest the power originaly, they have a 50% chance of becoming dazed afterward for 1 round per level of power. Sorcerers can cast any spell of any level automaticaly, but must make a dice check on a d10. They have a 10% chance of spell-failure for every level of the spell. Arcane spell failure no loner applies. Clerics have a 25% chance of taking X con/str damage (though it heals in 24 hours) with every spell cast. The X is equal to the spell's level. To avoid dipping in a class, spellcasters can't multiclass. And though it's not exactly what you wanted, give everyone at first level wild talent as a feat. And because it shouldn't be just like naturaly psionic anyway, now they can manifest all level 1 powers.
FlameLover 10-15-05, 10:21 PM	Honestly though, I liked the bit of randomness that the 1d4/spell level introduced to the system, and if I used the CL system you've suggested with it, it wouldn't really work. Under that system, unless you were over 5th level or so, casting a single 1st level spell would exhaust you. I wanted to make magic harder to use, but not quite that hard. Yeah 1d4 would only work if you did about 7 points per level. If a characters max spell points are equal to his character level x 3, this allows a 1st level caster to cast 3 spells right off the bat. Casting one will be ok, second one will fatigue him, third will exhaust him. That actually doesn't look bad at all. Let's look at a higher level character. A 5th level character has 15 spell points. He can cast 15 first level spells, 7 second level spells, or 5 third level spells (or combinations thereof). This seems a bit much to me, considering how I want to restrict spells down to either 5th or 6th level, and he can cast quite a bit. Yeah i didn't break it all down but you have to remeber after casting just three 2nd level spells you'd be fatigued or 6 you'd be exhuasted. So you can cast abit more but you'd have to take the penalties. But yeah - the cost should be raised. What about if we use the ACTUAL spell points rules, and have a level 1 spell cost 1 SP, a level 2 spell cost 3, a level 3 spell cost 5, etc, etc. The 5th level character can now cast 3 third level spells, 5 second level spells, or 15 first level spells (or combinations thereof). That looks much better to me. What about a 10th level character? He has 30 SP. He can cast 30 first level spells, 10 second level spells, 6 third level spells, 4 fourth level spells, or 3 fifth level spells(or combinations thereof). Looks good to me. I'm liking it. Sounds good to me. I was tossing around just spell level times 2 but at low levels that's too much so you should go with the UA spell points per level. What about regen rates, though? I would like spell points to regenerate over time, but I'm unsure what sort of rate I should look at. Any ideas? I think 1/mintue would work but another option i just thought of could be a "reserve pool" sort of that is equal to your max MP. You could trade on a point for point basis 1 reserve point for actual MP per minute. This would allow you to cast all your spells in one fight, recover some MP with reserve points and cast some more next fight. It'd also allow you to remove Fatigued/Exhuasted in-between combat. FlameLover, just noticed you're also from Australia. Good to see another aussie around! Heh, it's surprisingly rare to find another Australian. I didn't notice you were because, well i checked my map and it must be old since i don't find a city called Sigil anywhere ;)
mythSSK 10-15-05, 10:54 PM	Yeah 1d4 would only work if you did about 7 points per level. In my idea above, I had it sitting at 5 per level, but yeah. I think 1/mintue would work but another option i just thought of could be a "reserve pool" sort of that is equal to your max MP. You could trade on a point for point basis 1 reserve point for actual MP per minute. This would allow you to cast all your spells in one fight, recover some MP with reserve points and cast some more next fight. It'd also allow you to remove Fatigued/Exhuasted in-between combat. That was a little confusing to follow, but let me see if I understood you right. There are two pools of spell points, the primary one and a reserve pool. Both have the same amount of SP in them, but the reserve pool can't be directly accessed. To use the SP in the reserve pool, you first need to transfer them into your primary one, and you can transfer them over at the rate of 1 per minute. Is that basically what you were saying? If so, then I have a few quibbles with it: 1. 1/min seems to be too fast a regen rate. That means a 10th level character could transfer all his reserve points back over to his primary pool in half an hour, 2. Once they use up their reserve pool, then what? No more spells? One of the main reasons I was trying to do this was to eliminate the "Sorry guys, I ran out of spells five hours ago" sillyness. I'd like to have the SP be constantly regenerating, without restrictions, and scaling along with character level. 1 per hour per character level was the original idea as everything started with the nonlethal damage (that's how fast it regens), but that is too much, I think. Using a 10th level character example again, he regenerates a third of his SP every hour. What about 1 per hour for every two character levels (minimum 1)? 10th level character would regen 5 an hour, and be back at full capacity in 6 hours. Sounds not unreasonable... Heh, it's surprisingly rare to find another Australian. I didn't notice you were because, well i checked my map and it must be old since i don't find a city called Sigil anywhere ;) I'm a Brisbanite actually, but then again, perhaps you were checking the wrong kind of map when looking for Sigil ;) .
FlameLover 10-15-05, 11:16 PM	Yep - that's basically what i meant. Anyway 1 per level per hour would work too. It means that at any level you'd need 3 hours to get back to max if you were at 0. I myself would make it maybe half that but then i do prefer low magic myself. But considering you'll sometimes go below 0 it should work fine. I think once you go below 0 you fall Unconcious and need to wait until you get back to 0 again (i'd raise regen to 1 per level per minute since falling unconcious in combat should be dangerous but not instant-kill). But i like the idea that mages never "run out" for the day but i'm planning on just weakening magic so that they can be a cross between a Sorc and Warlock.
ttchimera 10-16-05, 01:28 AM	You should also make the DC for the save increase after each failed attempt to limit the amount of spells cast each day. Lvls 1-3 -> +1; lvls 4-6 -> +2; lvls 7-9 -> +3.
Gilean 10-16-05, 04:53 AM	Have you considered basing the system on incantations, or whatever the ritual spells from UA were called? They might be a good baseline.
RobertJ 10-16-05, 07:51 AM	One of the things that I think is kind of confusing here is that it seems like you're trying to maintain the spells that currently exist, while completely revamping the spell system... and of course, you mention, completely revamping the spells that exist as well. I feel like most the discussion assumes basically the same spells (and the spell-level system they come from) existing, when that's not necessarily the case. (Just for disclosure's sake, I'm currently involved in a similar project. Surprise surprise, right?) Talk about level 9 spells and such... From the way you describe this setting, no core mage classes at all, only able to learn spells from NPCs as goodies, it doesn't strike me that there's even a really a place for PCs with magic that powerful. I think, personally, the best bet is to: Throw everything out. Decide exactly how you're going to restrict spellcasting. Whether it's through some kind of pseudospellpoints+fatigue system or subdual damage system, or otherwise. Set up the mathematics of the system mechanics, using as many different tiers of spell power as you want or need. (I personally believe that the fewer tiers you have the better, so I'd suggest around three.) Set up the power of the spell tiers. Things like attribute/AC buffs and damage dealing things should follow some explicit formulas on what's allowable based on the tiers. A lot of other stuff is less tangible. Create your spells. Playtest! Some of the formulas you created in deciding the power of spell tiers might turn out poorly, keep an eye out for whether using higher tier spells is too good compared to lower tier spells, and whether a larger number of lower tier spells is actually better than higher tier spells. More idiosyncratic spells (things like the D&D spell Transmute Rock to Mud) with less tangible values might turn out slightly too good, in that case you can always adjust things like material components, duration, and so forth.
mythSSK 10-16-05, 06:06 PM	>snip< You know, I think you're right. Starting from scratch and working my basics out, then working my way through everything you've just said sounds like the best, most logic, most intelligent way to work everything out. Lots of work, but I guess no more so than trying to work out how to alter the existing system. At work today, so tonight when I've had a chance to look over everything, I'll decide exactly what I want to do. Thanks for the reality check. (Just for disclosure's sake, I'm currently involved in a similar project. Surprise surprise, right?) **is curious** What are you doing with your magic system?
Mind Rogue 10-17-05, 07:33 PM	Well, if you're playing in a CoC like setting, using insanity loss for casting spells might be appropriate. Your casters then decide how fast they want to push themselves to insanity as the major balancing factor. After all, if you casters simply use their most powerful spells each round, they will quickly have no sanity left. If you don't want it to be full-blown CoC, you might pull a chapter our of Wheel of Time and only have them loose sanity when casting spells, not when they see freaky Things-from-Beyond. You could also pull something out of d20 Modern where casting is an advanced class, so you only get to cast spells after hitting 4th level and you never get beyond 5th level. Subdual damage as a drawback might work, but the difficulty of pairing it up with healing spells and natural healing has problems. Just imagine having a troll mage. Other drawbacks might be able to work, but it could be difficult to make them work for casting lots of spells. In particular though, you might look at fatigue and ability damage and also considering differentiating the feedback based on the school of the spell.
syrinth 10-17-05, 09:16 PM	Personally I think the thought of a Troll Mage in this low magic setting would be freaking hilarious!
RobertJ 10-19-05, 07:11 AM	**is curious** What are you doing with your magic system? It's kind of complicated and vested largely in the campaign setting. Basically, a very high magic level campaign where all classes are casters, but magic items are very limited. Since characters are pretty much reliant on their class abilities, most of the classes will look like the Fighter class: lots of feats, lots of room for customization. I'm hoping they'll be versatile enough themselves that I don't need any PrCs at all. The goal is pretty close to Psionics -- Characters pick up a few spells (and get more if they spend feats, or use feats to research their own metamagic-type twist on a spell) and have power points. Lower level spells can be empowered so they're still useful at higher levels and there's less obsolesence. At mid-high levels a primary spellcaster could be using their unempowered lower level spells all day with no strain at all. However, spell resistance is no longer pass-fail but rather subtractive, so for the most part if the caster is facing something on-level he's either got to empower the spell or use a more powerful and draining spell. This is all pretty much still speculative though, at the moment my time's more taken up with work and planning out a current vanilla D&D game than other things. Before I really want to get into it I plan on reading the Perfect20 book (downloaded off of here) and this other neat book called something along the lines of Design Patterns in RPG Games (downloaded from a guy who posted the link on the Forge).
Millennium 10-19-05, 08:59 AM	First of all, if you can find it, read the Jack Vance's The Dying Earth novels (though this is, admittedly, no mean feat). If you still dislike Vancian casting after this then that's fine, but make sure you understand where it comes from, how it works, and why it can make sense. Workable, balanced magic systems are very hard to create, and although D&D's pseudo-Vancian casting is a good system for this, no D&D book has ever done a very good job of explaining why. Now, this said, you might want to pick up Magic of Incarnum. It's not an exact match for what you want by any stretch of the imagination; soulmelds are, after all, not spells. However, the large list of incarnum feats and Essentia system sound very much like the sort of mechanics you're looking for, and they could serve as base for your system. I don't know if you'd want to get into Chakra binding for the few magic items that you say will exist in your campaign, but that system might also be worth looking into. The Epic-Level Handbook may also be worthwhile, for its description of epic spell "seeds". You could use these seeds as a base for a set of feats which mimic spells. The seed list is also at d20srd.org (http://d20srd.org), since I'm guessing you don't want the whole ELH. Perhaps you could work something like this: all characters get a basic Essentia pool as stated in MoI, but some classes (the spellcasting-focused ones) and races get it faster. All spells become feats based on seeds, with relatively weak base effects but augmentable using Essentia investment. Each morning, casters can reinvest Essentia into the feats they know, deciding where they want to focus their efforts for that day. It's a start, anyway. You may also want to look into the Warlock class' decieve item and imbue item abilities as alternate usage and construction mechanics.
FlameLover 10-19-05, 08:41 PM	What about making magic skill based? Spellcraft would have sub-skills for every school of magic like Abjuration, Necromancy, etc. and you'd perform little "tricks" with succesful skill checks. Like say a DC20 Spellcraft (Abjuration) check to get a +4 deflection AC bonus for a few rounds. These would be unlimited but you wouldn't always get the outcome you wanted... 6 up - The trick goes of perfectly 0 to 5 - The trick goes mostly right -1 to -5 - The trick fizzles out -6 down - The trick has an inverse effect Take the example of the Shield abjuration trick. If you rolld 26 or higher it'd go perfectly. If you rolled 20-25 it'd give you maybe only 3 deflection AC or affect an ally nearby (wrong but not useless). 19-15 and it fizzles out. 14 or less and it provides a -4 deflection penalty as it stears attacks towards you. You could require a feat to perform these tricks although just taking ranks seems like enough to me. This also means that mages would have to choose which schools to learn - an Enchanter would be VERY different to an Evoker so. To make the system more fleshed-out i'd also add some sort of Incantation-system for bigger, flashier stuff.
Meatboy 10-26-05, 04:12 AM	This is a very interesting topic and the ideas here have been quite diverse. A question I have however is, "Why not take magic?". So far all the ideas kind of show that aside from a feat loss and maybe an as of yet undetermined temporary loss, there is very little reason for a character not to get magic. As it stands now I can see pretty much every character in your game expending a feat to get magic. Even if one has to buy spell books and ingredients for the most part its just mechanicaly advantageous to get at least some magic. Now I have an idea that may help limit magic at least some what. Hopefully making it a harder desicion instead of a no brainer. Firstly the Idea of controling it with feats is a good Idea. But, instead of just limiting it to one feat per magic type why not create a feat tree for each type of magic. You can allow access to either, levels of spells or spells of a specific category (ei fire or healing). You can add prerequisites if you wish so that players have to do a little planning if they want to cast particular kinds of spells (thus limiting maigc further). As for immediate effects to lessen spell casting the idea of nonlethal damage (this the 3.5 ed. name for sub-dual damage) is not bad except for the inclusion of healing magic (this has already been mentioned) where a caster need only replenish their life to keep on casting, I can think of two ways around this problem. 1. A caster's healing magic cannot work on themselves. This means that once the caster finishes whatever spells needed to be cast they just can't back cast a few healing spells and be back in the game. 2. making spells ALWAYS deal nonlethal damage. This is especially effective when the cost for a spell is quite high (oh 2 or three times the spell level in damage) this means that casting a ninth level spell puts the hurt on players and they will not want to do often it is more of a last resort thing. Additionaly you may want the players to make a concentration check to see if they cast a spell correctly. Failure means the players don't cast the spell or take lethal damage instead of nonlethal or even both. Success means that the spell is cast as normal. Also if you combine these two methods (or maybe something similar) all players could cast magic, if they wanted too, but, they could also see that doing so is dangerous and not to be tampered with too often. Well that is just a rough idea maybe you will find it helpful and maybe you won't. On a slightly different note... It has been brought up here that a low level of magic is wanted. It has also been mentioned that being able to cast more spells per day at a lower level is also wanted. I just want to no what the real goal is because these two statments seem very contradictory.
mythSSK 10-26-05, 05:20 AM	Now I have an idea that may help limit magic at least some what. Hopefully making it a harder desicion instead of a no brainer. Firstly the Idea of controling it with feats is a good Idea. But, instead of just limiting it to one feat per magic type why not create a feat tree for each type of magic. You can allow access to either, levels of spells or spells of a specific category (ei fire or healing). You can add prerequisites if you wish so that players have to do a little planning if they want to cast particular kinds of spells (thus limiting maigc further). I was planning on making them into feat trees, but i wasn't sure how to go about it - the idea of tying them to the schools of magic is appealing to me... meditate on this, I shall. As for immediate effects to lessen spell casting the idea of nonlethal damage (this the 3.5 ed. name for sub-dual damage) is not bad except for the inclusion of healing magic (this has already been mentioned) where a caster need only replenish their life to keep on casting, I can think of two ways around this problem. 1. A caster's healing magic cannot work on themselves. This means that once the caster finishes whatever spells needed to be cast they just can't back cast a few healing spells and be back in the game. We had actually started talking about a regenerating spell point system instead of the non-lethal damage earlier in the thread, so that effectively fixes that problem. 2. making spells ALWAYS deal nonlethal damage. This is especially effective when the cost for a spell is quite high (oh 2 or three times the spell level in damage) this means that casting a ninth level spell puts the hurt on players and they will not want to do often it is more of a last resort thing. Additionaly you may want the players to make a concentration check to see if they cast a spell correctly. Failure means the players don't cast the spell or take lethal damage instead of nonlethal or even both. Success means that the spell is cast as normal. I was thinking of tying a Knowledge or Spellcraft check to the casting, rather than Concentration. I'm still not sure what to do with that part yet... I didn't think about having them take lethal damage, though, good call. Also if you combine these two methods (or maybe something similar) all players could cast magic, if they wanted too, but, they could also see that doing so is dangerous and not to be tampered with too often. This is the sort of feeling I want to instill about magic. You managed to sum it up well. Well that is just a rough idea maybe you will find it helpful and maybe you won't. Everything said makes me think a little more, and regardless of whether the suggested ideas actually help or not, the thinking does help. Thank you for your thoughts! On a slightly different note... It has been brought up here that a low level of magic is wanted. It has also been mentioned that being able to cast more spells per day at a lower level is also wanted. I just want to no what the real goal is because these two statments seem very contradictory. Well, it's slightly hard to explain what I mean. I want a low level of magic, as in there not being access to high level and/or overly flashy spells, and also as in magic being fair unknown - most common people wouldn't even believe in it. But I hate the way the Vancian casting system, or even spellpoints for that matter, works. Did Gandalf ever say, "Woops, sorry guys, can't summon any griffons, I used up my last 5th level spell slot today!" Did Merlin? I just prefer the idea that a character who knows magic isn't restricted into distributing his resources like it's a computer game "Oh Noes!!1!11! Im out of MP!" and can call upon his magic when needed... but it costs something to use his power, and drawing on it too often in too short a time can drain, injure, or even kill you as your weakened body is overwhelmed by the forces you had sought to control. I know I'm just babbling incoherently, but I'm sure there was a point in there somewhere. Well, you managed to sum up what I wanted earlier. That's the type of route I want to go.
Rand_T_66 10-26-05, 09:33 AM	I didn't look through all the responses so forgive me if someone already meantioned this: Check out Monte Cook's Iron Heroes. The way they do the Arcanist - thier general magic user - is fantastic!
Meatboy 10-26-05, 01:50 PM	Thank you for your swift reply. Now I had read the post where using regenerating spell points was brought up. Though not a bad idea once implemented it becomes a logistical nightmare for both players and DMs. This is because everyone involved has to start keeping track of a nearly unquatifiable game mechanic called time. Inside of a battle this isn't much of a problem because every action has been partioned out it nice little actions, turns and rounds all lasting a set amount. Outside of battle however it all starts to fall apart. I am unsure how most people's games play but I do know that in the games I run time is usually a background thing more or less used to depict the current setting. The idea of having to track time consistantly in an abstract game to determine ones ability with magic seems like more work than it is worth. A suggestion I propose here is the use of the base power points mechanic from expanded psionics hand book which states that psychic characters (or in this case magical ones) have base power points as shown by this equation. PP = ability modifier x (level/2) this ends up with a character having 10 times there ability modifer in points when they reach twentieth level. Now this does not address the question of being able to cast more spells per day but it does give a concrete number and most of all static number to represent spell casting potential. Spells then cast from these points could carry no actual danger to the caster just a few spells per day that they could cast free of charge and if they wanted to cast more make the players make some kind of check where they roll to see if they succeed at casting a spell or if they suffer some other kind of debilitation (such as damage or fatigue/exhaustion). The DC for this check having something to do with the level of the spell or even how many times a character has tried to cast magic above and beyond their normal points. Again this may or may not be what you are looking for but hopefully it helps you think about it all more or at least in a different way.
Mind Rogue 10-26-05, 02:59 PM	I'm trying to come up with a reasonable system that completely does away with limited uses of magic, but with drawbacks to using it that make it so you don't want to use it too much. Right now I'm leaning towards taking damage when you cast a spell and healing only makes real damage subdual. This makes it so that even if you take lots of damage from casting and then recieve healing, you still have to do some waiting to be able to cast again or else you will faint. So in essence, your natural healing acts as replenishing spell points.
mythSSK 10-26-05, 08:41 PM	@ Rand_T_66: I've actually heard a lot of good things about Iron Heroes. I'll look into it, thanks for the tip! --- @ Meatboy: I won't quote your post like I did last time, lol. You're very correct about it being a bit of a nightmare to keep track of, and that's kinda where the conversation hung up last time... the reason I originally suggested it was we had been tossing around the merits of spells doing nonlethal damage, and nonlethal damage recovers at a per hour rate. I like where you're going with your suggested system. A low number of spells you can cast per day without any ill effects, but once you go beyond that you start to take risks. Sounds good to me so far. I'll bang out something rough over the next day or so. @ Mind Rogue: Sounds somwhat similar to what my original idea was, except I didn't have the spells dealing lethal damage. If you get any further with your own ideas, let us know! It's great to hear other peoples ideas for alternate systems.
FlameLover 10-27-05, 03:51 AM	The system i'm using for my game is skill and feat based. The idea is that Spellcraft is seperated into suc-skills, one for each school of magic. You invest in them seperatley and you then "mold" spells by choosing effects and making a casting check. When you can you make a Spellcraft (school) check and then compare your results to the DC. If you roll 6 more than the DC or higher it goes off fine. If you roll the DC or more but by less than 5 it goes mostly right but with a minor mistake. If you fail by 5 or less it's a moderate mishap and a failing of 6 or more is a major mishap. The sorts of effects you could acheive are shields of force (acjuration), a life-draining touch attack (necromancy) or a bolt of eldritch energy similar to a Warlock's (evocation). A minor mishap means the spell aims slightly off, it does slightly less damage, it benefits a nearby ally instead of you or something else like that. A moderate mishap is going really off course, doing about half damage, doing the wrong sort of effect (say doing bludgeoning damage instead of fire) or partly rebounding on the caster. A major mishap is where it blows up in there caster's face. It might have the completley incervse effect, affect the enemy if a buff or affect a team mate if an offensive spell, etc. A list of possible mishaps for each would be given in the desciption of the spell "method". Based on the magic system from IH spell "methods" are a loose framework you use to make a spell. They provide rules for working out the casting DC based on the desired effect and stuff. Now I'm not putting any sort of limit on casting for my own system but if you wanted to limit casting i'd make it give you a penalty on all future casting checks (probably -1 per spell). You could do -1 per 5DC but people will only be able to cast a few spells before they've "run out" so i'd stick with no penalty. Instead the limiter is the spells themselves - one mis-cast spell and *boom* everyone could go up in smoke. Also if someone is interrupted while casting (ala an AoO for instance) they automatically must make a Spellcraft check. You must make the check for the spel again (Same DC) except the DC increases by an amount equal to the damage inflicted. So if you're casting something you need a 10 to cast succesfully then there is a good chance it'll be very, very wrong since you trigger any mishaps the new check would cause (this can turn a "safe" casting into a very lethal one). This also serves to discourage martial characters - not only are they starved for skill points but casting in combat is very hazardous. Classes like Rogues would probably pick up Enchantment or Illusion magic though and i can see ranged Fighters picking up Divination (since it includes alot of attack bnous buffs)
Gilean 10-27-05, 12:59 PM	The thread on design patterns (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=16990.0), recommended reading for all game designers and homebrewers, though of lesser use to the latter.