Revised AC/HP system [Archive] - Wizards Community

Revised AC/HP system [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
simen_88
02-09-05, 09:57 AM I have been thinking a lot about a way to make AC and HP more realistic. Right now, I've got an idea for it:
You add your character level to your AC. Your HP is determined by multiplying a tenth of your CON score by half your maximum die roll for that level (this part might need some thinking through).

Any thoughts?
Vanamir
02-09-05, 11:00 AM I have been thinking a lot about a way to make AC and HP more realistic. Right now, I've got an idea for it:
You add your character level to your AC. Your HP is determined by multiplying a tenth of your CON score by half your maximum die roll for that level (this part might need some thinking through).

Any thoughts?

By adding your character level to your AC you'll get only insanely high ACs and your PCs will become nearly invulnerable to physical attacks. For some time i tried a house rule where you received half your BAB as a competence bonus to AC, which is considerably lower than what you are suggesting. It worked quite well until about level 6 but after that the party got nearly invincible. As long as magic items and buffing spells are moderately available an increase to AC simply isn't necessary IMHO.

As for your variant HP rules: Why exactly are you dissatisfied with the standard system? Your new system seems unnecessarily complicated and i don't see the point behind it.

If you want more realism go for the VP/WP system and maybe to the armor as DR variant.
simen_88
02-09-05, 04:17 PM The thing is that I find the current HP/AC system very unrealistic, in the way that a high level character can burn for a longer time than other characfters et.c.
I think the new AC thing wouldn't be that bad if it applied to monsters as well, but I see your point. Also, I realize that my HP system makes little difference, and are pretty complicated.
As for the VP/WP system, I think it is by far too lethal. A single critical hit can leave a fighter dead.
Gold Katana
02-09-05, 04:29 PM A single critical hit can leave a fighter dead. Yes, but that's realistic. For our next campaign, we will be using VP/WP and DR variants but will leave out the "crits bypass DR" rule. That will somewhat offset the high lethality of the system.
Nomad4life
02-09-05, 04:40 PM Yes, but that's realistic. For our next campaign, we will be using VP/WP and DR variants but will leave out the "crits bypass DR" rule. That will somewhat offset the high lethality of the system.

We tried that, but then nixed it. Otherwise, you run into situations where it becomes impossible to inflict damage upon “normal mortal” armored targets. It just didn’t seem “game balanced.”

We STILL haven’t figured out what to do with magical DR under the VP/WP variant.
simen_88
02-09-05, 05:26 PM Yes, but that's realistic.
Yes, but it takes some of the fun away. Balancing fun and realism can be a very tricky issue sometimes. Like this.
Ranger REG
02-09-05, 06:44 PM Combine UA VP/WP System (though I prefer the -10 HP "Death's Door" rules found in the standard HP System) with UA Armor as DR System. Critical Hits only bypass VP, not armor's DR.
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat
02-10-05, 02:44 PM I was working on a variant hp and ac system also, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=360218). I don't have a problem with your HP idea, but a flat-out bump to AC equal to character level might be a bit too high, particularly with standard or high magic. If you want a static bonus to AC, then yeah, I agree with Ranger_REG; use the defense bonus charts.

-mike the amazing muskrat
LordofIllusions
02-15-05, 02:58 PM I have an even better idea: Leave the D&D AC/HP system as it is and avoid an unneccesary bunch of extra work, headaches over what is balanced and what is not, and having to torture your eyes by viewing un-balanced HP/AC systems such as the ones posters on the D&D boards make-up.

~~~
Wrathamon
02-15-05, 08:25 PM Isn't that what the House Rules section is for?

to talk about alternate ways of looking at the game mechanics?

leave it alone? Then what the hell is Unearthed Arcana for?
Clawhound
02-16-05, 04:23 PM I have been thinking a lot about a way to make AC and HP more realistic. Right now, I've got an idea for it:
You add your character level to your AC. Your HP is determined by multiplying a tenth of your CON score by half your maximum die roll for that level (this part might need some thinking through).

Any thoughts?

Your system would give a HUGE boost to magic power. In order to keep things relative, you would need to scale back most magical damage and healing. Finally, you need to scale back sneak attacks.

Second, this isn't a realistic system. Fireballs and cure spells are not realistic. This is an abstract heroic system where player characters are supposed to do unrealistic and unbelievable things. In looking through the designer notes, I find few mentions of realism. Where it is mentioned, it is usually to say, "We know it's not realistic but realism isn't fun."
Wrathamon
02-16-05, 08:17 PM "We know it's not realistic but realism isn't fun."

tell that to the counterstrike players...

but I agree with you.
Ranger REG
02-16-05, 08:35 PM I have an even better idea: Leave the D&D AC/HP system as it is and avoid an unneccesary bunch of extra work, headaches over what is balanced and what is not, and having to torture your eyes by viewing un-balanced HP/AC systems such as the ones posters on the D&D boards make-up.
Nah. Too boring and too safe. :bored: We like to take exciting risks out of the box, headache and eye torture included. :P
Degobah
02-17-05, 02:08 AM Just as another idea...HPs are supposed to represent physical toughness, but also luck and ability to roll with blows. Maybe leave total HP as is, but divide it into the 3 categories: Wounds, Luck, Dodge. Then, the player can allocate damage taken across the pools except
-if an attack has no attack roll or save (falling into lava, descending ceiling), take all of it out of the wounds pool.
-Reflex save avoids: can be divided as desired, all luck or dodge if desired.
-attack roll based attack: divide as desired across Wounds and Dodge pools.
Or whatever... I'm just whipping this out.
simen_88
02-17-05, 12:21 PM Just as another idea...HPs are supposed to represent physical toughness, but also luck and ability to roll with blows. Maybe leave total HP as is, but divide it into the 3 categories: Wounds, Luck, Dodge. Then, the player can allocate damage taken across the pools except
-if an attack has no attack roll or save (falling into lava, descending ceiling), take all of it out of the wounds pool.
-Reflex save avoids: can be divided as desired, all luck or dodge if desired.
-attack roll based attack: divide as desired across Wounds and Dodge pools.
Or whatever... I'm just whipping this out.
This is probably the best suggestion I've heard. Thank you a lot.
Wrathamon
02-17-05, 02:53 PM Interesting idea :) wondering how it would actually work in play
Degobah
02-17-05, 05:35 PM S'alright. I'm curious as well. It would mean that character HP is reduced somewhat against most attacks (some more than others). There would be some problems that would need ironing out...that the current HP system has but too subtly to notice...like should Cure Light Wounds be able to give back luck points (maybe it could heal "wound points" first, with excess to "dodge points" by removing fatigue, but not luck?). And could a PC spend their luck points to do anything else, like use them as action points or to improve die rolls?)
How to work out the actual amounts of HP in each pool is something I hadn't really thought about: probably all the characters level-1 HP pool would be in wounds, then split the pools evenly from then up??.
simen_88
02-17-05, 06:11 PM Sounds like a good idea. I agree that the luck pool should be fixed a bit, but all it takes is a renaming. How about rolling with blows? That way, we'll make wounds be pure toughness only, and we'll stop that pesky fire as well.
Wrathamon
02-17-05, 07:22 PM Here are some of my thoughts on this system you mentioned. Your Hitdice results would be divided by 3 with left over put into Wound Points.

so your example would be something along these lines.

Dodge Pool = 1/3
Luck Pool = 1/3
Wound Pool = 1/3 + Con modifier + toughness + left over

A 5th level fighter with an 14 Con + tougness would have on average

Dodge Pool = 10pts
Luck Pool = 10pts
Wound Pool = 23pts

Here are some additions I would make.

Dodge and Luck heal at the same rate as Non-lethal damage but Wounds take longer to heal and use the normal healing rates.

Cure type effects only heal your wound pool.
Fast healing converts wound pool damage to nonlethal.

When your nonlethal damage = your current wound +luck pool you are staggered.
When you nonlethal damage is over your total pool amount you are unconscious.
This means that you stay staggered longer, trying to dodge the remaining blows if you have any dodge pool left.

-if an attack has no attack roll or save (falling into lava, descending ceiling), take all of it out of the wounds pool.
-Reflex save avoids: can be divided as desired, all luck or dodge if desired.
-attack roll based attack: divide as desired across Wounds and Dodge pools

My thoughts are something along these lines.

If I am hit with a spell or trap or someting that needs a reflex for half damage as an example. The damage is taken from Dodge.

If the damage is taken from a fall, lava or a spell that doesn't allow a save it is taken from Luck first.

all other damage can be applied where needed, mostly likely luck and dodge first.

Con damage from poisons or spells always takes away from wounds.

I havent really stat down to really try to make the mechanics work but this was just off the top of my head.
Wrathamon
02-17-05, 07:30 PM I would maybe even add in CHR bonus to Luck pool for kicks.
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat
02-17-05, 07:32 PM Dex modifier to dodge pool?

Also, perhaps evasion could provide the ability to apply damage that has a reflex save for half to dodge and/or luck pool. I don't know if that should be in addition to the normal affects of evasion, or instead of.

-mike the amazing muskrat
Wrathamon
02-17-05, 09:34 PM I would have to say no on that.

Dex is already used for avoiding hits and avoiding damage in the AC and Reflex save department.

I think a better solution would be to change the name of the dodge pool to something that doesnt imply dexterity... or dodging as a mechanic.

If you allowed Dex for HPs it would become an overpowered stat, and become much better than CON.

CHR is already concidered the weakest of the attributes, adding this would bring it up to a better stat and all those warrior types would think twice about putting an 6 or 8 in there to min/max. ;)

But, it was just a suggestion.

If you didnt make a difference in the two alternative pools, you could just combine the two into one pool to simplify it.

So your HPs are split between Luck and Wound pools
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat
02-17-05, 09:41 PM CHR is already concidered the weakest of the attributes, adding this would bring it up to a better stat and all those warrior types would think twice about putting an 6 or 8 in there to min/max. ;)
Ok, sure, but what's the in-game rationale for it? High CHA means you're so cool that the gods love you just a little bit more than everyone else?
-mike the amazing muskrat
Wrathamon
02-18-05, 01:13 AM Chr has been used as a luck bonus in the past I believe. Certain feats and class abilities use chr to explain that.

or another way to look at it isnt luck but confidence.

Good leaders are hard to take down they keep getting up. Its what leaders do, they never give up.

why do paladins get their charisma to their saves?

its nothing to do with holyness... but confidence imo.

The same could be said with hit points as well.

Like I said I thought I would toss it out their as an alternative, it isnt really needed.

Dex makes more sense for the avoiding lethal damage example but would be too over the top for game balance.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
simen_88 02-09-05, 09:57 AM	I have been thinking a lot about a way to make AC and HP more realistic. Right now, I've got an idea for it: You add your character level to your AC. Your HP is determined by multiplying a tenth of your CON score by half your maximum die roll for that level (this part might need some thinking through). Any thoughts?
Vanamir 02-09-05, 11:00 AM	I have been thinking a lot about a way to make AC and HP more realistic. Right now, I've got an idea for it: You add your character level to your AC. Your HP is determined by multiplying a tenth of your CON score by half your maximum die roll for that level (this part might need some thinking through). Any thoughts? By adding your character level to your AC you'll get only insanely high ACs and your PCs will become nearly invulnerable to physical attacks. For some time i tried a house rule where you received half your BAB as a competence bonus to AC, which is considerably lower than what you are suggesting. It worked quite well until about level 6 but after that the party got nearly invincible. As long as magic items and buffing spells are moderately available an increase to AC simply isn't necessary IMHO. As for your variant HP rules: Why exactly are you dissatisfied with the standard system? Your new system seems unnecessarily complicated and i don't see the point behind it. If you want more realism go for the VP/WP system and maybe to the armor as DR variant.
simen_88 02-09-05, 04:17 PM	The thing is that I find the current HP/AC system very unrealistic, in the way that a high level character can burn for a longer time than other characfters et.c. I think the new AC thing wouldn't be that bad if it applied to monsters as well, but I see your point. Also, I realize that my HP system makes little difference, and are pretty complicated. As for the VP/WP system, I think it is by far too lethal. A single critical hit can leave a fighter dead.
Gold Katana 02-09-05, 04:29 PM	A single critical hit can leave a fighter dead. Yes, but that's realistic. For our next campaign, we will be using VP/WP and DR variants but will leave out the "crits bypass DR" rule. That will somewhat offset the high lethality of the system.
Nomad4life 02-09-05, 04:40 PM	Yes, but that's realistic. For our next campaign, we will be using VP/WP and DR variants but will leave out the "crits bypass DR" rule. That will somewhat offset the high lethality of the system. We tried that, but then nixed it. Otherwise, you run into situations where it becomes impossible to inflict damage upon “normal mortal” armored targets. It just didn’t seem “game balanced.” We STILL haven’t figured out what to do with magical DR under the VP/WP variant.
simen_88 02-09-05, 05:26 PM	Yes, but that's realistic. Yes, but it takes some of the fun away. Balancing fun and realism can be a very tricky issue sometimes. Like this.
Ranger REG 02-09-05, 06:44 PM	Combine UA VP/WP System (though I prefer the -10 HP "Death's Door" rules found in the standard HP System) with UA Armor as DR System. Critical Hits only bypass VP, not armor's DR.
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat 02-10-05, 02:44 PM	I was working on a variant hp and ac system also, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=360218). I don't have a problem with your HP idea, but a flat-out bump to AC equal to character level might be a bit too high, particularly with standard or high magic. If you want a static bonus to AC, then yeah, I agree with Ranger_REG; use the defense bonus charts. -mike the amazing muskrat
LordofIllusions 02-15-05, 02:58 PM	I have an even better idea: Leave the D&D AC/HP system as it is and avoid an unneccesary bunch of extra work, headaches over what is balanced and what is not, and having to torture your eyes by viewing un-balanced HP/AC systems such as the ones posters on the D&D boards make-up. ~~~
Wrathamon 02-15-05, 08:25 PM	Isn't that what the House Rules section is for? to talk about alternate ways of looking at the game mechanics? leave it alone? Then what the hell is Unearthed Arcana for?
Clawhound 02-16-05, 04:23 PM	I have been thinking a lot about a way to make AC and HP more realistic. Right now, I've got an idea for it: You add your character level to your AC. Your HP is determined by multiplying a tenth of your CON score by half your maximum die roll for that level (this part might need some thinking through). Any thoughts? Your system would give a HUGE boost to magic power. In order to keep things relative, you would need to scale back most magical damage and healing. Finally, you need to scale back sneak attacks. Second, this isn't a realistic system. Fireballs and cure spells are not realistic. This is an abstract heroic system where player characters are supposed to do unrealistic and unbelievable things. In looking through the designer notes, I find few mentions of realism. Where it is mentioned, it is usually to say, "We know it's not realistic but realism isn't fun."
Wrathamon 02-16-05, 08:17 PM	"We know it's not realistic but realism isn't fun." tell that to the counterstrike players... but I agree with you.
Ranger REG 02-16-05, 08:35 PM	I have an even better idea: Leave the D&D AC/HP system as it is and avoid an unneccesary bunch of extra work, headaches over what is balanced and what is not, and having to torture your eyes by viewing un-balanced HP/AC systems such as the ones posters on the D&D boards make-up. Nah. Too boring and too safe. :bored: We like to take exciting risks out of the box, headache and eye torture included. :P
Degobah 02-17-05, 02:08 AM	Just as another idea...HPs are supposed to represent physical toughness, but also luck and ability to roll with blows. Maybe leave total HP as is, but divide it into the 3 categories: Wounds, Luck, Dodge. Then, the player can allocate damage taken across the pools except -if an attack has no attack roll or save (falling into lava, descending ceiling), take all of it out of the wounds pool. -Reflex save avoids: can be divided as desired, all luck or dodge if desired. -attack roll based attack: divide as desired across Wounds and Dodge pools. Or whatever... I'm just whipping this out.
simen_88 02-17-05, 12:21 PM	Just as another idea...HPs are supposed to represent physical toughness, but also luck and ability to roll with blows. Maybe leave total HP as is, but divide it into the 3 categories: Wounds, Luck, Dodge. Then, the player can allocate damage taken across the pools except -if an attack has no attack roll or save (falling into lava, descending ceiling), take all of it out of the wounds pool. -Reflex save avoids: can be divided as desired, all luck or dodge if desired. -attack roll based attack: divide as desired across Wounds and Dodge pools. Or whatever... I'm just whipping this out. This is probably the best suggestion I've heard. Thank you a lot.
Wrathamon 02-17-05, 02:53 PM	Interesting idea :) wondering how it would actually work in play
Degobah 02-17-05, 05:35 PM	S'alright. I'm curious as well. It would mean that character HP is reduced somewhat against most attacks (some more than others). There would be some problems that would need ironing out...that the current HP system has but too subtly to notice...like should Cure Light Wounds be able to give back luck points (maybe it could heal "wound points" first, with excess to "dodge points" by removing fatigue, but not luck?). And could a PC spend their luck points to do anything else, like use them as action points or to improve die rolls?) How to work out the actual amounts of HP in each pool is something I hadn't really thought about: probably all the characters level-1 HP pool would be in wounds, then split the pools evenly from then up??.
simen_88 02-17-05, 06:11 PM	Sounds like a good idea. I agree that the luck pool should be fixed a bit, but all it takes is a renaming. How about rolling with blows? That way, we'll make wounds be pure toughness only, and we'll stop that pesky fire as well.
Wrathamon 02-17-05, 07:22 PM	Here are some of my thoughts on this system you mentioned. Your Hitdice results would be divided by 3 with left over put into Wound Points. so your example would be something along these lines. Dodge Pool = 1/3 Luck Pool = 1/3 Wound Pool = 1/3 + Con modifier + toughness + left over A 5th level fighter with an 14 Con + tougness would have on average Dodge Pool = 10pts Luck Pool = 10pts Wound Pool = 23pts Here are some additions I would make. Dodge and Luck heal at the same rate as Non-lethal damage but Wounds take longer to heal and use the normal healing rates. Cure type effects only heal your wound pool. Fast healing converts wound pool damage to nonlethal. When your nonlethal damage = your current wound +luck pool you are staggered. When you nonlethal damage is over your total pool amount you are unconscious. This means that you stay staggered longer, trying to dodge the remaining blows if you have any dodge pool left. -if an attack has no attack roll or save (falling into lava, descending ceiling), take all of it out of the wounds pool. -Reflex save avoids: can be divided as desired, all luck or dodge if desired. -attack roll based attack: divide as desired across Wounds and Dodge pools My thoughts are something along these lines. If I am hit with a spell or trap or someting that needs a reflex for half damage as an example. The damage is taken from Dodge. If the damage is taken from a fall, lava or a spell that doesn't allow a save it is taken from Luck first. all other damage can be applied where needed, mostly likely luck and dodge first. Con damage from poisons or spells always takes away from wounds. I havent really stat down to really try to make the mechanics work but this was just off the top of my head.
Wrathamon 02-17-05, 07:30 PM	I would maybe even add in CHR bonus to Luck pool for kicks.
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat 02-17-05, 07:32 PM	Dex modifier to dodge pool? Also, perhaps evasion could provide the ability to apply damage that has a reflex save for half to dodge and/or luck pool. I don't know if that should be in addition to the normal affects of evasion, or instead of. -mike the amazing muskrat
Wrathamon 02-17-05, 09:34 PM	I would have to say no on that. Dex is already used for avoiding hits and avoiding damage in the AC and Reflex save department. I think a better solution would be to change the name of the dodge pool to something that doesnt imply dexterity... or dodging as a mechanic. If you allowed Dex for HPs it would become an overpowered stat, and become much better than CON. CHR is already concidered the weakest of the attributes, adding this would bring it up to a better stat and all those warrior types would think twice about putting an 6 or 8 in there to min/max. ;) But, it was just a suggestion. If you didnt make a difference in the two alternative pools, you could just combine the two into one pool to simplify it. So your HPs are split between Luck and Wound pools
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat 02-17-05, 09:41 PM	CHR is already concidered the weakest of the attributes, adding this would bring it up to a better stat and all those warrior types would think twice about putting an 6 or 8 in there to min/max. ;) Ok, sure, but what's the in-game rationale for it? High CHA means you're so cool that the gods love you just a little bit more than everyone else? -mike the amazing muskrat
Wrathamon 02-18-05, 01:13 AM	Chr has been used as a luck bonus in the past I believe. Certain feats and class abilities use chr to explain that. or another way to look at it isnt luck but confidence. Good leaders are hard to take down they keep getting up. Its what leaders do, they never give up. why do paladins get their charisma to their saves? its nothing to do with holyness... but confidence imo. The same could be said with hit points as well. Like I said I thought I would toss it out their as an alternative, it isnt really needed. Dex makes more sense for the avoiding lethal damage example but would be too over the top for game balance.