Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XalinPhir 10-24-06, 04:39 PM	Sorry if this may be a long post, but for the few who have experianced the lengthy and complicated system of crafting you may already know why.:bored: Ok the deal is i am on a quest to find out if WOTC is going to create an easier, possibly more solid item creation system. The reason being, I have reviewed, understood, and gawfed at the current set of rules layed down by the 3.5 core rule book set. Not only is it complicated, and time consuming, but it has hardly any relevance to creating magic items (unless you craft arms and armor or etc.) Which by the way is still redundant. :rant: I will explain why this system recently has been drivig me up the wall and how i have come to this situation. First I decided to create a dual-wand-weilding gnome, I wanted to make it easy for him to craft wands in little time, as we all know the rules stat that Majic items are created 1,000 gp per day. I first questioned this rule when i saw the Maester, a prestige class that automatically allows you to "quick craft" magic items, creating them at a speed of 2,000 gp per day. Later in the book i continued to read, and came upon the skill section, and learned that "quick crafting", could allow you to make items faster by increasing the DC by 10. I decided to investigate and see if i could use this in simialr fashion to the Maesters natural ability, increase the DC to create a magic item to increase how much i could create a day. :teach: Low and behold their is no craft DC for magic items as long as you have the feat, supply the materials and spend the time you can make the item. So how was i supposed to impose this "quick crafting" to magic items. I looked at normal items and found that the increased DC barely helped, but helped non-the-less, i was ok with this system. I soon assumed from the rules written that magic items creation DC was 20, the same as a masterwork item. I then did all the math turning the base price of the item from GP to CP (to do it by day), and then multiplied my check by the DC to see how much i got done that day....:ton: .....wouldn;t you beleive that it took me like 20 times as long to create the magic item this way than their "magical number 1,000 gp/ day", with this system i was craeting magic items more like 15gp a day, and mind you this was with the "quick crafting" increased DC and a high craft check. :banghead: So what the heck!!!, i am lost, how did they come up with the magic system, it makes no sense with the rest of the game mechanics. Ok, so i though i could try to modify the numbers and the craft mathmatics, i must have spent three days on this, turns out, every magical weopon creation rule is diffrent, so no one way to create them was possible. :raincloud I would like to find some way to combine the skills with creation of magic items, like such (craft wand, 10 ranks, etc.) perhaps you gain acess to this craft skill as a class skill when you select the feat, perhaps wizards of the coast could oblige me with rules of creation using the skill craft system giving specific rules for each feat for each unique type of item creation. the fact is i would like to see a way to mesh the craft skill with the creation of majic items, and thus creating a way to become a great crafter of magic items, if i so wished it to be. I would like to see a more fleshed out, revised and if at all possible, simple, system of crafting magic items through the craft skill, and not through feats and imaginary numbers created for random items.:waits: I am aware of the other craft supplements out there such as the Unearthed Arcan version, but thats all that it is, a supplement, i would like to see a core rule set that actually seemed like a "core" rule. I wonder what everyone else thinks about this rule, i questioned my DM and he agrees its why no one ever uses the craft skill, if not for mundane things, just like profession is merely a side note for character creation and 1sp a day (when you could just kill a goblin and get 6 gp). If the system changes, makes sense, and etc. i see more people actually using the system instead of bypassing it and just simply awarding the items, or etc. :nonono: PLEASE LET OUR VOICES BE HEARD, IF YOU WISH TO OFFER AN OPINION ON THIS MATTER, PLEASE DO, i would like to see just how this matter sets with all of you, and perhaps if it is strongly opinionated by all their loyal fans one way or another the system may change. :invasion: Thank you for your patience and participation...:bow:
trapdoor alligator 10-25-06, 12:15 AM	First, this should be posted in the Unearthed Arcana and House Rules forum, not in Future Releases. ... You are confused. Although they have the word 'Craft' in common, the craft skill and the craft magic item feats are not directly connected. The craft skill represents the mundane ability to turn raw materials into usable goods. The craft feats, on the other hand, represent the ability to invest mundane objects with magical power. Whereas the time required to use the craft skill represents the time required to manipulate your materials in the requisite manner, the time required to enchant a magic item is keyed to the amount of power to be placed in the item. More complex items take longer and are more difficult to create, and are easier and take less time for a skilled craftsman. More powerful magic items take longer to enchant, but this is not because the process is more difficult--it just takes a long time for a spellcaster to gather that much energy and invest it in a permanent way. That is why skill is not a factor in magic item creation. ... All that said, there ARE feats and prestige classes you can take to expedite the creation of magic items. There are some good ones in the Eberron campaign setting, for instance. I'm not familiar with the Maester, but that sounds like a good start too. In closing, please be more careful about where you post next time, and remember that moderation is the key to effective use of emoticons. ... Edit: Sorry to bump this thread, but an answer seemed called for.
ressurrector 10-25-06, 01:39 AM	Put simply: There is no DC to create a magic item. Quick crafting (for magical items) in no way affects the difficulty in creating an item, it just makes it take half as long. Do not let similar names fool you, craft (skill) and Crafting (Feats/Magical items) are completely different, and work in totally different ways.
Stormonu 10-25-06, 02:29 AM	Yes, but the current crafting rules/magic crafting rules does bring a prominant fault to bear. When you craft magical weapons or armor, the base cost of the armor or weapon is tacked on in addition to the magical cost. For example, a magic dagger costs 2,000 gp for the magic portion, and 302 for the dagger. All other magical items only have a "magic" cost. For example, to make a ring of spell storing, you don't pay the cost of the ring (which is made out of platinum). This is a problem - if, for example, the party had no idea that this ring was magical in nature, what do you tell the party rogue how much its worth when he appraises it? Not only that, but the actual forging of the ring itself is completely glossed over. Why aren't the cost of weapons and armor glossed over as well when fashioning them into magical items? Its not like you get to use the benefits of a masterwork longsword once it's been enchanted - so why don't +1 longswords just cost 2,000 gp - and the 302 gp to masterwork the item is just "rolled into" the cost to enmagic the item?
XalinPhir 10-25-06, 12:43 PM	yes thank you i realized it was probably the wrong post to write to, but also in retrospec it was probably the best, because im not just talking about existing rules, i am wanting to know if you guys would like to see a change in the system, possibly with a more integrated crafting system. I will have to check out the feats from ebberon, i don't usualy flip through those books, usually core is enough for me.
Troll-Magus 10-25-06, 07:13 PM	Yes, but the current crafting rules/magic crafting rules does bring a prominant fault to bear. When you craft magical weapons or armor, the base cost of the armor or weapon is tacked on in addition to the magical cost. For example, a magic dagger costs 2,000 gp for the magic portion, and 302 for the dagger. All other magical items only have a "magic" cost. For example, to make a ring of spell storing, you don't pay the cost of the ring (which is made out of platinum). This is a problem - if, for example, the party had no idea that this ring was magical in nature, what do you tell the party rogue how much its worth when he appraises it? Not only that, but the actual forging of the ring itself is completely glossed over. Why aren't the cost of weapons and armor glossed over as well when fashioning them into magical items? Its not like you get to use the benefits of a masterwork longsword once it's been enchanted - so why don't +1 longswords just cost 2,000 gp - and the 302 gp to masterwork the item is just "rolled into" the cost to enmagic the item? Never thought much of it, I assumed that the cost of the masterwork misc item was insignificant or left to the DM to decide. What's a masterwork cloak worth, a MW ring of simple copper, a MW belt off a giant? I assumed they left the cost of the misc MW item up to the DM; which he would add to the cost of the item. In my world almost all magical rings have a minmum base masterwork cost of 50gp (masterwork copper, with arcane engravings on both sides, to rings of admantine or mithril with inlaid gems worth in the thousands. Cloaks can be masterwork burlap material, to masterwork soft dragon skin suede. Weapons and armor on the other hand are more substantial and require a bit more than forge a ring or cloak, and ultimately D&D is a game of conflict and the tools of the trade probably require more in-depth details. Perhaps this will be addressed in next year's Magic Item Compendium, though I keep asking for a Arms & Equipment 3.5 to be printed. That would be more likely to include masterwork crafting rules for misc items. Though I never understood how killing monsters makes someone better working in a forge, but then I dont' understand people that play MMOs to craft 101010010 items. I rather work in my workbench building wooden shelf case (for minis), tables and toys for my son.
Darth Sephiroth 10-25-06, 10:21 PM	Some of what you want may be covered with the Craft Points rules.
Ltheb Liadon 10-26-06, 05:25 PM	It may be important to point out that creating a magic item doesn't mean making it from scratch usually. You can enchant any masterwork sword. It may also be funny to note the pricing rules for creating magic items. It never says that you "buy" anything to create magic items. It can be assumed that you do, but you don't have to. A wizard who has 8,000 gp can go into a cave in the middle of nowhere, and after the 8 days it takes him to finish his +2 sword, that 8,000 gp will have "vanished." Theres also something increadibly metagame about the crafting rules that npc foes of a PC could exploit -- the static creation times and rules. You cannot do anything else while crafting. Sorry, no Mindblank or Non-detection that morning for you. NPCs who want a perticular PC gone could just walk in and fire off a wand of fireball. Either way, they win. Either all the PC's progress is ruined and money is wasted, or they die. (Usually both) Granted, 3rd edition went a long way to formula-ize the Magic Item creation rules. The less things governed by DM fiats, the better. I don't think anyone who wanted to craft a ring of protection +1 would like it if the DM decided they needed to spend 5000 XP on it. As for why people don't adventure for money vs work for a living? Its simple: The whole adventure for money thing doesn't work. Eventually the wealth falls into the hands of the highest level guy. The poor are then stuck working for him to get anything. (Plus random running around killing goblins is a bit silly) PCs are supposed to be Exceptional. Think of them like the Corporate CEO's of the D20 system; luck is just rigged in their favor, and if it isn't, then they at least have the capacity to rig said luck in their favor. - Just my ramblings.
The Ultimate Dragongod 10-30-06, 08:50 AM	I decided in my game I would ice the Item Creation feats and make it part of the Craft (W/e) system. I basically have a few feats: Mastercrafter: With it you can use craft skills to make magic-quality arms, armor, wondrous items and rings. You need the appropriate craft skill to make them, and it works the same way, but their crafting time for magic quality items is sped up by like 20x. This feat represents the genius artisan making items of supreme quality. They gather magical components from various places if needed, but don't need to cast magic themselves. It made more sense for me for the master crafters to craft arms, armor and such. Supreme Mastercrafter: This is a high level version (since magic items exponentially in value). Though you still have a one day minimum for an item (flexible like crafting points), you can craft a huge amount of gp value of items in a day, like 150x. This feat also allows you to make rods. Artificer: Same thing as mastercrafter except you can make wands, wondrous items and rings. You need spellcasting to use this feat. Legendary Artificer: High level version of Artificer. Lets you make wands, staffs, rods, wondrous items and rings. Brew Potion is now available to anyone with Craft (Alchemy). Scribe Scroll is available to anyone with the Craft (Magic Writing) skill and spellcasting levels. I also included a version for Psionic items for the sake of completeness. If psionics are included in the game, both of the aforementioned feats let you create universal items, mastercrafter lets you create psionics arms and armor. "Mindsmith" as it is called lets you make all teh items that are specific to psionic characters like dorjes and psicrowns. Power Stones can be made by any psionic character with the appropriate skill, just as Scribe Scroll. Tattoos were expanded to include magic spells and can be made by anyone with Craft (Tattooing).
AquaticSpaceChicken 10-30-06, 01:07 PM	I decided in my game I would ice the Item Creation feats and make it part of the Craft (W/e) system. I basically have a few feats: Mastercrafter: With it you can use craft skills to make magic-quality arms, armor, wondrous items and rings. You need the appropriate craft skill to make them, and it works the same way, but their crafting time for magic quality items is sped up by like 20x. This feat represents the genius artisan making items of supreme quality. They gather magical components from various places if needed, but don't need to cast magic themselves. It made more sense for me for the master crafters to craft arms, armor and such. Supreme Mastercrafter: This is a high level version (since magic items exponentially in value). Though you still have a one day minimum for an item (flexible like crafting points), you can craft a huge amount of gp value of items in a day, like 150x. This feat also allows you to make rods. Artificer: Same thing as mastercrafter except you can make wands, wondrous items and rings. You need spellcasting to use this feat. Legendary Artificer: High level version of Artificer. Lets you make wands, staffs, rods, wondrous items and rings. Brew Potion is now available to anyone with Craft (Alchemy). Scribe Scroll is available to anyone with the Craft (Magic Writing) skill and spellcasting levels. Those are great ideas. I had just started revising craft along similar lines, but now stealing Dragongod's idea will save me lot's of time and headaches ;) Thanks!
The Ultimate Dragongod 10-30-06, 01:53 PM	I really enjoyed doing it. I just finally decided to get up and revise the craft system which I've always thought should have some connection with the item creation system. Of course, it's not perfect, has not been playtested, etc. Tell me if there are any huge flaws. I might just work on something later that replaces the entire craft system (because it's really complicated). Oh, and additionally, I threw out the XP Cost thing. What I did was when you take one of these feats you basically get the Craft Reserve similar to an Artificer, and have to take the higher level feats to get level 12+ craft reserve.
AquaticSpaceChicken 10-31-06, 11:17 AM	I really enjoyed doing it. I just finally decided to get up and revise the craft system which I've always thought should have some connection with the item creation system. Of course, it's not perfect, has not been playtested, etc. Tell me if there are any huge flaws. I might just work on something later that replaces the entire craft system (because it's really complicated). Oh, and additionally, I threw out the XP Cost thing. What I did was when you take one of these feats you basically get the Craft Reserve similar to an Artificer, and have to take the higher level feats to get level 12+ craft reserve. The Craft Reserve sounds interesting. Is the Artificer found in UA, so I can take a look at it? I only have the core books, but borrowing the right book to look it up won't be a problem. The Scribe Scroll feat is the only one with which I see a major problem. Rangers get the tracking feat as a class feature, but must buy ranks in Survival to make it useful. I think that was one reason the ranger's skill points were upped in 3.5. Mages get Scribe Scroll as a class feature. Now they would have to use skill points to make it useful, but I don't want to up their skill points just because of that. Perhaps merging Craft (Magic Writing) and Spellcraft would be a solution. Not perfectly logical, I admit, but a mage will likely take levels in Spellcraft anyway, so it softens the skill point blow.
The Ultimate Dragongod 10-31-06, 12:42 PM	Heh, take it the way you will, use whatever works for you. I think it would be completely fine to stay with the Scribe Scroll as being how it is now. It's low cost and easy, and required for wizards. For the record, I actually did revise a number of the classes. Wizard did get an increase in skill points (so many are supposed to be loremasters after all). Btw, the Artificer is from Eberron Campaign Setting.
Mathus 11-09-06, 02:25 PM	My ruling is that a mage just doesn't walk into a cave with 8000 GP and walks out with a new staff of power. You first need the item to be enchanted and that item must be of MW quality. For example lets say you want to make Bracers of Armor. Bracers suitable for enchanting takes .5 weeks + 1.25 weeks for a total of 1.75 weeks. To craft Items 1) Items Price in silver 2) Set the DC (page 71 of the Player's Handbook) 3) Pay 1/3 the cost in materials 4) Make a skill check representing one weeks worth of work of SP value 5) Multiply the check by the DC 6) This is the amount deducted from the total SP it takes to create Masterwork Component Average w/ +10 check 1) 500sp (50 GP item MW cost) 2) 20 DC 3) Pay 16gp 4&5) 20 X 20 = 400 (roll of 10 with +10 skill) 6) 1.25 weeks Bracers w/ +10 check 1) 150sp (I make up the price of non-magical bracers) 2) 15 DC 3) Pay 5 GP 4&5) 20 X 15 = 300 (roll of 10 with +10 skill) 6) .5 weeks Once you have your Bracers the rest is by the book. Craft Wonderous Item 1) Base price = DMG 2) 1/25 of base GP in XP (base / 25) 3) Raw materials is 1/2 base price 4) Time to create is 1 day (8 hours) per 1000 GP (125 GP an hour) Bracers AC+2 1) (DMG Pg 250) = 4000 GP 2) (4000 / 25) = 160 XP 3) (4000 / 2) = 2000 GP 4) (4000 / 1000) = 4 days In the end it took you 1 week and 5-6 days; cost you 2021 GP, and burned 160 XP. I also rule that the Wizard doesn't need to personally make the Masterwork bracers. He can commission them made and pays 3 times the raw materials (or base price) in cost.
User5127 11-16-06, 12:18 AM	there is a homunculous in eberron that can do the work for you, basically you spend 1 hour with it and show it what to do and it finishes the job. and there are other non WoTC products that have increased magic item creation rules and mW for misc items, and even improves teh MW to renowned and legendary status. and gives rule for pricing all of them.