Post/Author/DateTime	Post
chefcyric23 09-15-07, 07:54 AM	Someone in my group wants to gesthal these two classes. What we are pondering is the sneak attack. I dont think it would stack between each class. But since it does have a different name under the Ninja class. What would we do? Plus, any good prestege classes he should take. Or any thoughts at all about the classes in general. Pro's and cons and such.
Xavon 09-15-07, 11:46 AM	Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike do stack. They have different names and different trigger conditions.
Lefty 09-15-07, 08:42 PM	A Ninja leans toward honor where a Rogue might not particularly. An oriental system is always a manifestation of dichotomy...while you might have a good rogue or a bad rogue...with a ninja you will have either a saint or murderer. I was reading surprise rules the other day (I particularly appreciate the Assassin Class) and it states any by surprise or unexpected maneuver. So it is all a matter of knowing the tools you have and using them before you accidentally break your own kneck and then go for a swim (Ha Ha Ha). Seriously, using surprise will always magnify attack and damage. Something I have always been dissastified with is the lack of a player's choice in specifing the number one skill percentile in the basic theif tables. What do you think about taking that list af ten or twelve abilities and those ten or twelve percentiles and using them to define your theif. Like I said earlier, the difference is only a definition of, we could say, personality; something a player might not bring to the Ninja Char anyway. So lets say my level one Theif is not in the lock picking trade and I decide to use that 80% for move silently. And I take that Move Silently of perhaps only 22% and use it for pick pockets. I will recopy and post the (1978) AD&D chart (for those who have not) and really splatter out a ninja for any way you want to play one. Lefty
Lefty 09-17-07, 03:53 PM	Surprise, sneak attacks and sudden attacks are all based on Backstab and that has a damage condition that might surprise you. Here is the theif table and then a way I suggest that it can be used to tailor any form of the theif class. level. A B C D E F G read languages 01. 30 25 20 15 10 10 85 - 02. 35 29 25 21 15 10 86 - 03. 40 33 30 27 20 15 87 - 04. 45 37 35 33 25 15 88 20 05. 50 42 40 40 31 20 90 25 06. 55 47 45 47 37 20 92 30 07. 60 52 50 55 43 25 94 35 08. 65 57 55 62 49 25 96 40 09. 70 62 60 70 56 30 98 45 10. 80 67 65 78 63 30 99 50 11. 90 72 70 86 70 35 99.1 55 12. 100 77 75 94 77 35 99.2 60 13. 105 82 80 99 85 40 99.3 65 14. 110 87 85 99 93 40 99.4 70 15. 115 92 90 99 99 50 99.5 75 16. 125 97 95 99 99 50 99.6 80 17. 125 99 99 99 99 55 99.7 80 BASE CHANCE A: pick pockets B: open locks C: find and remove traps D: move silently E: hide in shadows F: hear noise G: climb walls THUG (assassin)--Theif, 5th level designed as a Ninja A: climb walls 50 B: move silently 42 C: open locks 40 D: find and remove traps 40 E: pick pockets 31 F: hear noise 20 G: hide in shadows 90 And you see the ability to arrive and most importantly to wait undetected until the reverse exposure needed for the backstab multiplier arrives. THUG (assassin)--Theif, 5th level designed as a Rogue A: hear noise 50 B: climb walls 42 C: move silently 40 D: find and remove traps 40 E: hide in shadows 31 F: pick pockets 20 G: open locks 90 And here would be the ability, foremost, to pass nearly any lock quickly enough to be unnoticed and then the ability to move about in relative safety. Surprise can take effect with any unexpected movement or change, offering an assassin a basic 50% chance of simply killing with a backstab. And, a backstab is at +4 by nature of attacking from behind and the damageis doubled by every four levels of the theif. Thus these two THEIF class characters would deal TRIPLE damage, and I belive that is after the addition of the strength bonus. Assassins also recieve pay for successful assassinations and the theif levels just might be one of the cheapest in experience points per level to advance. The AD&D Players Manual offers some armor and six hit points per level and in Unearthed Arcana a Table (as of 1988 or so) exists to provide a mass ability dice roll count for each character class to provide you with plenty of First Level opportunity. So, in wrap up, all the theif skills with this method would be entirely intact and a character would be of one form of expertise or another. And don't forget, Club, Sword, or Dagger. Lefty
deathbane 09-17-07, 04:47 PM	Someone in my group wants to gesthal these two classes. What we are pondering is the sneak attack. I dont think it would stack between each class. But since it does have a different name under the Ninja class. What would we do? Plus, any good prestege classes he should take. Or any thoughts at all about the classes in general. Pro's and cons and such. Sudden strike can be used in place of sneak attack for Prc qualification, meaning they are not that different. I just see sudden strike as a weaker form. They are basically the same thing, but the class that has sneak attack is better at it so they don't need as much setup. Example: The ninja has to have you flat-footed or he can't hit vital areas, but the rogue is so good as long as there is the slightest distraction, as in you being flanked, he can still hit you in vital areas. If sneak attack can't stack with sneak then it does not make sense for sudden strike to do it.
fatmonkey 09-17-07, 09:46 PM	Getting those two classes is not very good if he does not get both sneak attack and sudden strike as few of the other abilities are very good (both have same BAB, HD, and lots of skills). If he were a Ninja/Fighter you would let him stack bonus damage from fighter feats and from sudden strike so why not and Rogue Ninja? The Sorcerer or Wizard can do level x d6 damage in a 30' burst... So why not let the rogue/ninja do level x d6 damage to a flat footed target that is subject to critical hits? edit: the Fighter 20 // Sorcerer 20 can power attack for +40 (or even higher w/ some feats) with a two handed weapon and Wrath Strike or True Strike to still have a good chance to hit. One of the alternative abilities from PHBII allows the fighter to do double damage (full attack with only 1 attack)... So with 3 or so feats, and 1 ability that costs a feat you can do double damage +120.
deathbane 09-18-07, 06:47 AM	Getting those two classes is not very good if he does not get both sneak attack and sudden strike as few of the other abilities are very good (both have same BAB, HD, and lots of skills). If he were a Ninja/Fighter you would let him stack bonus damage from fighter feats and from sudden strike so why not and Rogue Ninja? The Sorcerer or Wizard can do level x d6 damage in a 30' burst... So why not let the rogue/ninja do level x d6 damage to a flat footed target that is subject to critical hits? edit: the Fighter 20 // Sorcerer 20 can power attack for +40 (or even higher w/ some feats) with a two handed weapon and Wrath Strike or True Strike to still have a good chance to hit. One of the alternative abilities from PHBII allows the fighter to do double damage (full attack with only 1 attack)... So with 3 or so feats, and 1 ability that costs a feat you can do double damage +120. I was just pointing out that they are basically the same thing, and that if they stack then sneak attack should stack with itself, which it does not. I will admit the ninja/rogue gestalt does not mesh well together, but when a 9th level rogue/ninja(with TWF) is hitting you with 10d6 3 times in one round(30d6) before weapon damage is counted in you will see why they don't stack. I understand the OP is trying to help the player, but I think it is better if the player chooses classes that work together better.
Krusk 09-18-07, 01:01 PM	sudden strike and sneak attack have two similar but diffrent conditons that need to be met befor they can be delt. Thus you can deal sneak attack damage while doing no sudden strike damage. Because of this, and the fact that they have diffrent names means that they stack. Diffrent names is important, because if they were the same ability then they would be called the same thing. But this class combination sort of really defys the logic of playing in a gestalt game. Usually you play gestalt so that you can fill an empty class roll when you are low on players. The character that is a rogue//ninja fills the same role twice. So they are going to really excell at the thing they are already good at, and every other player will be able to be good at multiple things. Let them combine the combination and they will get many less times to shine than the other players, and if they care they will reroll, if not they will continue with their one trick poney. Im gonna guess the player saw an option for +20d6 each attack and got real excited, but you might want to explain how the rest of the party has minimum d10 HD, full BAB, at least 2 good saves, 4+int minimum skills, and tons of class abilities. While they have lots of D6 that they can sometimes use to fight enemies, but about half the time not.
Spikes01k 09-18-07, 06:27 PM	I was just pointing out that they are basically the same thing, and that if they stack then sneak attack should stack with itself, which it does not. I will admit the ninja/rogue gestalt does not mesh well together, but when a 9th level rogue/ninja(with TWF) is hitting you with 10d6 3 times in one round(30d6) before weapon damage is counted in you will see why they don't stack. I understand the OP is trying to help the player, but I think it is better if the player chooses classes that work together better. I am not too familure with gestalt rules but normally if you multiclass Ninja/Rogue 1/1 then if you meet both conditions then you would get 2D6 extra damage. The same goes for Scout too. Think what would happen if you multi classed Barbarian and Duskblade, those two would be an awe-some combination.
deathbane 09-18-07, 07:08 PM	I am not too familure with gestalt rules but normally if you multiclass Ninja/Rogue 1/1 then if you meet both conditions then you would get 2D6 extra damage. The same goes for Scout too. Think what would happen if you multi classed Barbarian and Duskblade, those two would be an awe-some combination. If you multi any class that has sneak attack or sudden strike the progression goes up. For example if you have ninja5/rogue4 and you meet both requirements you get 3d6 from the ninja and 2d6 from the rogue per attack, but if you only meet the sneak attack requirements you only get 2d6 per attack. With gestalt you they overlap, and since they are the same thing(almost) the greater one takes precedence. The damage from the sneak attack/sudden strike is due to the accuracy of your attack, and as I stated in the first post the sneak user is more skilled because he can hit a target even if the target is moving. Their ability to do damage is the same at equal levels, one just needs you to not be moving as much. To stack them from gestalt is like saying if someone cast greater invis(8 rounds) at the same time you activate ghost step as a ninja that you get to be invisible for 9 rounds, but that is not how it would work. The invisibility would only be for 8 rounds. From the first post I stated that at ninth level he can do 30d6 in one round. The rogue could also take use magic device which would allow him to cast spells that make sneak attack work against undead and constructs, and DR just doesn't matter when you are doing at least 90 points of damage before the rest of the party even gets to do anything. The DM could say that such spells don't exist in his world, and then throw monsters like oozes and plants at the party, but then he takes away the ninja/rogue's ability to be effective in combat knowing sneak attack is why he chose that class, which is not fair to that player.
Krusk 09-21-07, 04:06 PM	To stack them from gestalt is like saying if someone cast greater invis(8 rounds) at the same time you activate ghost step as a ninja that you get to be invisible for 9 rounds, but that is not how it would work. The invisibility would only be for 8 rounds. here is where your argument falls short. If you use ghost step and are also greater invis'ed you are essentially "double invis". If you stumble into an anti-magic field while under this double invis you are still unable to be seen thanks to the Ki invis which you already had on. Yes youd only be invis for 8 rounds, but you would be invis for diffrent conditions. youd have one set of invis from the spell, and one set from the ki. Essentially allowing both and letting them stack. A rogue//ninja would have sudden strike X and sneak attack X. you get both if you meet both requirements. If you only meet one reqirement you only get one.
rironin 09-21-07, 04:50 PM	A friend of mine is capitalizing on the sneak attack/sudden strike stacking with a ray-specialized arcanist. Once he qualifies for Arcane Trickster, he will be taking it to up his spellcasting and give him sneak attack progression while taking ninja on the other side, giving him sudden strike progression. Should be very painful =P
rironin 09-21-07, 04:55 PM	here is where your argument falls short. If you use ghost step and are also greater invis'ed you are essentially "double invis". If you stumble into an anti-magic field while under this double invis you are still unable to be seen thanks to the Ki invis which you already had on. Yes youd only be invis for 8 rounds, but you would be invis for diffrent conditions. youd have one set of invis from the spell, and one set from the ki. Essentially allowing both and letting them stack. A rogue//ninja would have sudden strike X and sneak attack X. you get both if you meet both requirements. If you only meet one reqirement you only get one.Er, while I agree with the thrust of your argument (sneak attack and sudden strike should stack), a ninja using ghost step in an anti-magic field would be rendered visible, because anti-magic fields suppress supernatural abilities like ghost step in addition to spells like improved invisibility. Your example might be better illustrated with dispel magic being cast on the area in which the ninja with both invisibility effects active is sneaking around. The spell might dispel the improved invisibility spell but the ninja would remain invisible if he were also (for some reason) using his ghost step ability. The two effects overlap, and do not provide any added benefit, but they are both active and providing their benefits simultaneously. So too should any attack that qualifies as both a sneak attack and a sudden strike.
Lefty 09-21-07, 07:48 PM	I see where you are at, multiplying a multiplier and adding a component are different things
enlightened 09-21-07, 08:09 PM	Surprise, sneak attacks and sudden attacks are all based on Backstab and that has a damage condition that might surprise you. Here is the theif table and then a way I suggest that it can be used to tailor any form of the theif class. level. A B C D E F G read languages 01. 30 25 20 15 10 10 85 - 02. 35 29 25 21 15 10 86 - 03. 40 33 30 27 20 15 87 - 04. 45 37 35 33 25 15 88 20 05. 50 42 40 40 31 20 90 25 06. 55 47 45 47 37 20 92 30 07. 60 52 50 55 43 25 94 35 08. 65 57 55 62 49 25 96 40 09. 70 62 60 70 56 30 98 45 10. 80 67 65 78 63 30 99 50 11. 90 72 70 86 70 35 99.1 55 12. 100 77 75 94 77 35 99.2 60 13. 105 82 80 99 85 40 99.3 65 14. 110 87 85 99 93 40 99.4 70 15. 115 92 90 99 99 50 99.5 75 16. 125 97 95 99 99 50 99.6 80 17. 125 99 99 99 99 55 99.7 80 BASE CHANCE A: pick pockets B: open locks C: find and remove traps D: move silently E: hide in shadows F: hear noise G: climb walls THUG (assassin)--Theif, 5th level designed as a Ninja A: climb walls 50 B: move silently 42 C: open locks 40 D: find and remove traps 40 E: pick pockets 31 F: hear noise 20 G: hide in shadows 90 And you see the ability to arrive and most importantly to wait undetected until the reverse exposure needed for the backstab multiplier arrives. THUG (assassin)--Theif, 5th level designed as a Rogue A: hear noise 50 B: climb walls 42 C: move silently 40 D: find and remove traps 40 E: hide in shadows 31 F: pick pockets 20 G: open locks 90 Lefty This is not the correct place to talk about earlier Editions. These are the 3.5 boards. Comments about earlier editions go here. http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/
deathbane 09-22-07, 01:38 AM	here is where your argument falls short. If you use ghost step and are also greater invis'ed you are essentially "double invis". If you stumble into an anti-magic field while under this double invis you are still unable to be seen thanks to the Ki invis which you already had on. Yes youd only be invis for 8 rounds, but you would be invis for diffrent conditions. youd have one set of invis from the spell, and one set from the ki. Essentially allowing both and letting them stack. A rogue//ninja would have sudden strike X and sneak attack X. you get both if you meet both requirements. If you only meet one reqirement you only get one. If you are double invis'ed, say two invis spells, and someone cast dispel magic they still have to dispel both of them so they overlap, not stack. Stacking is when the effects combine, not when one continues despite the other. It is like if someone has armor +4 and mage armor +4. If the mage armor goes away their AC does not change, nor does it improve by having it active. If the mage armor and regular armor stacked then the armor bonus would be +8. That was my point with the sneak attack.
archerpwr 09-22-07, 11:08 PM	Raw they are very similar, but differerent abilities (sudden strike is significantly weaker than sneak attack). The real issue is whether letting a player gestalt rogue and ninja with full benefits would be overpowered. Let's see: 3/4 bab: weaker than it should be ref only good save: weakest save loads of precision damage: so, useless against many enemies 8+int skills: ok... d6 HD: weak How is this any stronger than your standard rogue? I'd tell the player to gestalt rogue with something else because ninja doesn't really add anything.
shok13 09-22-07, 11:43 PM	RAW states that abilities with the same name (not similar abilities) get the better progression. Surprise strike and sneak attack have different names, therefore they are different abilities and the rog/nin gets both.
strenoth 09-23-07, 01:19 PM	Why the heck are you posting irrelevant data from previous, obsolete editions that are unused by the people posting here, and are for a different class named THIEF (you repeatedly misspelled it), not ROGUE, which is thematically very similiar, but a rogue does not by definition steal, while by definition, a thief is a person who steals, thus making them not the same. Surprise, sneak attacks and sudden attacks are all based on Backstab and that has a damage condition that might surprise you. Here is the theif table and then a way I suggest that it can be used to tailor any form of the theif class. level. A B C D E F G read languages 01. 30 25 20 15 10 10 85 - 02. 35 29 25 21 15 10 86 - 03. 40 33 30 27 20 15 87 - 04. 45 37 35 33 25 15 88 20 05. 50 42 40 40 31 20 90 25 06. 55 47 45 47 37 20 92 30 07. 60 52 50 55 43 25 94 35 08. 65 57 55 62 49 25 96 40 09. 70 62 60 70 56 30 98 45 10. 80 67 65 78 63 30 99 50 11. 90 72 70 86 70 35 99.1 55 12. 100 77 75 94 77 35 99.2 60 13. 105 82 80 99 85 40 99.3 65 14. 110 87 85 99 93 40 99.4 70 15. 115 92 90 99 99 50 99.5 75 16. 125 97 95 99 99 50 99.6 80 17. 125 99 99 99 99 55 99.7 80 BASE CHANCE A: pick pockets B: open locks C: find and remove traps D: move silently E: hide in shadows F: hear noise G: climb walls THUG (assassin)--Theif, 5th level designed as a Ninja A: climb walls 50 B: move silently 42 C: open locks 40 D: find and remove traps 40 E: pick pockets 31 F: hear noise 20 G: hide in shadows 90 And you see the ability to arrive and most importantly to wait undetected until the reverse exposure needed for the backstab multiplier arrives. THUG (assassin)--Theif, 5th level designed as a Rogue A: hear noise 50 B: climb walls 42 C: move silently 40 D: find and remove traps 40 E: hide in shadows 31 F: pick pockets 20 G: open locks 90 And here would be the ability, foremost, to pass nearly any lock quickly enough to be unnoticed and then the ability to move about in relative safety. Surprise can take effect with any unexpected movement or change, offering an assassin a basic 50% chance of simply killing with a backstab. And, a backstab is at +4 by nature of attacking from behind and the damageis doubled by every four levels of the theif. Thus these two THEIF class characters would deal TRIPLE damage, and I belive that is after the addition of the strength bonus. Assassins also recieve pay for successful assassinations and the theif levels just might be one of the cheapest in experience points per level to advance. The AD&D Players Manual offers some armor and six hit points per level and in Unearthed Arcana a Table (as of 1988 or so) exists to provide a mass ability dice roll count for each character class to provide you with plenty of First Level opportunity. So, in wrap up, all the theif skills with this method would be entirely intact and a character would be of one form of expertise or another. And don't forget, Club, Sword, or Dagger. Lefty
Lefty 09-23-07, 03:00 PM	My reason for posting irrelevant and obsolete data is these guys are trying to invent a class for their own game and I have quite a bit of irrelevant and obsolete data on "class in general" Your attempted contribution was? You have a serious attitude problem, enlightened.
deathbane 09-23-07, 05:31 PM	RAW states that abilities with the same name (not similar abilities) get the better progression. Surprise strike and sneak attack have different names, therefore they are different abilities and the rog/nin gets both. So you are saying the name is what matters not how they work?
deathbane 09-23-07, 05:40 PM	It is basically no better than a rogue except for the amount of damage that the ghost step allows if they stack. It is powerful at lower levels, but the posters will see that at higher levels, when the ability to see invisible creatures or negate precision damage comes into play they have given up to much. I still think it is not viable, but if someone wants to gimp themselves then it is their decision.
enlightened 09-23-07, 07:22 PM	You have a serious attitude problem, enlightened. What? :confused: All I said was: This is not the correct place to talk about earlier Editions. These are the 3.5 boards. Comments about earlier editions go here. http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/ Is that attitude?
rironin 09-23-07, 08:40 PM	Is that attitude?Oops! He had to have been referring to strenoth's post and not yours... which was a little bit rude. Still, Lefty, since the OP is discussing using 3rd edition rules to put together to 3rd edition classes, I can't say that I see how whipping out backstabbing and percentage rolls from AD&D is going to help anyone out :P
calronmoonflower 09-23-07, 09:45 PM	I was just pointing out that they are basically the same thing, and that if they stack then sneak attack should stack with itself, which it does not. Sudden Strike: says the extra damage from the sudden strike ability stacks with the extra damage from sneak attack whenever both would apply to that same target.
deathbane 09-23-07, 10:03 PM	the extra damage from the sudden strike ability stacks with the extra damage from sneak attack whenever both would apply to that same target. when you get sneak attack damage from two classes they also stack when using regular classes, so are you saying that sneak attack should stack with itself when using gestalt?
calronmoonflower 09-24-07, 01:07 AM	when you get sneak attack damage from two classes they also stack when using regular classes, so are you saying that sneak attack should stack with itself when using gestalt? No. Gestalt uses rules that override the normal ways of doing this. A rogue/barbarian wouldn't have Improved Uncanny Dodge at 4th level even though a rogue 4/barbarian 2 would. This is because the gestalt rules override the normal ways of doing things. Also note my quote is the Rules As Written.
deathbane 09-24-07, 07:12 AM	No. Gestalt uses rules that override the normal ways of doing this. A rogue/barbarian wouldn't have Improved Uncanny Dodge at 4th level even though a rogue 4/barbarian 2 would. This is because the gestalt rules override the normal ways of doing things. Also note my quote is the Rules As Written. I understand that the book does not specifically say sudden strike and sneak attack, but if the writers took the time to spell out every situation the books would be a lot heavier. I guess you are trying to say that if the rules don't say you can't, then it must mean that you can, but the gestalt class was designed with the idea of filling two roles, so the designers probably never considered the idea of taking the same class twice. I know they are not exactly the same, but they don't bring any additional skills(spellcasting, and melee for example) when combined. Do you really thing the designers would have allowed a 9th level class to be able to to 30d6 of damage(not including weapon damage or energy damage) if they thought someone would try to use them together? Intent is one of those things that is not always said, but should always be considered.
RobbyPants 09-24-07, 02:03 PM	A Ninja leans toward honor where a Rogue might not particularly. I don't want to get off topic, but ... what? How are ninjas honorable? I'm not saying they can't be, but saying that they lean toward it seems like a stretch.
calronmoonflower 09-24-07, 02:06 PM	I guess you are trying to say that if the rules don't say you can't, then it must mean that you can, "You have chosen poorly." ;) That would be a argument from ignorance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance).
deathbane 09-24-07, 03:40 PM	"You have chosen poorly." ;) That would be a argument from ignorance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance). Originally Posted by deathbane I guess you are trying to say that if the rules don't say you can't, then it must mean that you can.. I said that is what it seems you are doing*, not that I would go by such nonsense, and you did not deny it yet, nor did you refute the train of thought that came with the rest of that post.
calronmoonflower 09-25-07, 03:15 AM	I said that is what it seems you are doing*, not that I would go by such nonsense, and you did not deny it yet, nor did you refute the train of thought that came with the rest of that post. OK. Also note that while by the Rules As Written they will stack the dungeon master can always pull out rule 0 and change the way it works. I would even say that it would be the logical choice to invoke rule 0 in this case as it is likely too powerful, but that still doesn't change the Rules As Written on the matter.
rironin 09-25-07, 08:10 AM	OK. Also note that while by the Rules As Written they will stack the dungeon master can always pull out rule 0 and change the way it works. I would even say that it would be the logical choice to invoke rule 0 in this case as it is likely too powerful, but that still doesn't change the Rules As Written on the matter.I wouldn't be too worried about a gestalt rogue/ninja - it's gestalt. Gestalt characters are expected to have superior BAB, hit points, and saves. They're expected to be twice as versatile as the average PC. A rogue/ninja has none of those things. Given that the rules suggest tossing creatures 2 CRs higher than normal at the PCs if those creatures rely on save-or-die effects, because gestalt characters are expected to make all their saves, I doubt the rogue/ninja will spend that much time even conscious :P Double sneak attack damage is scary, to be sure. But it's gestalt - lots of things are scarier. I'd let the player give rogue/ninja a try, but hold him to the same high standard as the other gestalt characters and not pull any punches. If the character is a mutant one-trick pony (and it is), then his weaknesses will quickly lead to his death, or the character will have to invest heavily in items and powers just to keep himself alive.
Lefty 09-25-07, 12:54 PM	I don't want to get off topic, but ... what? How are ninjas honorable? I'm not saying they can't be, but saying that they lean toward it seems like a stretch. code of silence
Lefty 09-25-07, 01:02 PM	[QUOTE=deathbane;13887998] Do you really thing the designers would have allowed a 9th level class to be able to to 30d6 of damageQUOTE] That is the real mechanical issue, possibly not, some things are literally the same only different between different form of the same major class
Lefty 09-25-07, 01:13 PM	Caste is also ninja related issue, perhaps similar to pretige, some people are in Europe and use language differently (blah blah blah) Ninja would come from the top or the bottom of cast while Rogues would be more centrist. The skills of a Ninja and putting them to use are also in regard to honor, something an otherwise common street-life theif (or was it thief) would not directly concern him or herself with I think it is a very great idea that a rogue would also be a ninja. This is House Rules and I'm not attacking anyone. In the last game I played my character was a barbarian/ fighter/berserker/thief, and I refered to him a "drunk" No I haven't wasted any money on 3rd because I already wasted a lot of money on first and second and the developement has cost a lot of hard rule space. Lefty
deathbane 09-25-07, 02:05 PM	Do you really thing the designers would have allowed a 9th level class to be able to to 30d6 of damage[QUOTE] [QUOTE]That is the real mechanical issue, possibly not, some things are literally the same only different between different form of the same major class I think you are trying to say that sudden attack, and sneak attack are basically the same. Is that correct or did I misunderstand?
Krusk 09-25-07, 04:38 PM	Er, while I agree with the thrust of your argument (sneak attack and sudden strike should stack), a ninja using ghost step in an anti-magic field would be rendered visible, because anti-magic fields suppress supernatural abilities like ghost step in addition to spells like improved invisibility. Your example might be better illustrated with dispel magic being cast on the area in which the ninja with both invisibility effects active is sneaking around. The spell might dispel the improved invisibility spell but the ninja would remain invisible if he were also (for some reason) using his ghost step ability. The two effects overlap, and do not provide any added benefit, but they are both active and providing their benefits simultaneously. So too should any attack that qualifies as both a sneak attack and a sudden strike. Thanks for the better example. I played a ninja all of one time and was just going off memory of how it worked. -didnt know it was supernatural- Can i also add that the first time I dm'ed a gestalt game i had a rogue//ninja a ninja//scout and a fighter2 barbarianX//clericX prestige class X. Guess who ended up doing 75% of all combat, social, and magical work and spells working fine. Guess who ended up having to share the othet 25% of the role between themselves. yeah if they ever came to a situation in which they could sneak attack consistantly and had to do skill checks they took all of 2 rounds to finish. But every other encounter they were bored stupid.
Lefty 09-28-07, 07:50 PM	[QUOTE=deathbane;13887998] Do you really thing the designers would have allowed a 9th level class to be able to to 30d6 of damage[QUOTE] I think you are trying to say that sudden attack, and sneak attack are basically the same. Is that correct or did I misunderstand? I think you see the possibility that I suggest, two sub class from the same class could do that. It is two forms of theif, right?
StoneTheCrow 09-29-07, 03:17 PM	You'd be even better off going with the thuggish Fighter variant (Sneak Attack instead of bonus Feats) with the Ninja. That way you gain the Fighter's hit points, BAB, and saving throws on top of the Sneak Attack of a Rogue, plus the full extent of the Ninja's abilities. Less concerns about conflicting concepts as well. Then as soon as you can qualify for a yummy prestige class that also grants Sneak Attack, you can ditch the otherwise useless Fighter in its stead. Seems to make more sense to me than Rogue/Ninja at any rate.
pigknight 10-04-07, 06:50 PM	Ninja/Rogue is just like Barbarian/Fighter or Wizard/Sorcerer Gesalt characters, they're normal rogues, fighters and wizards on roids. And they're are actually some of the weakest gesalt classes. Ex. A cleric/fighter beats a barbarian/fighter easily. A duskblade/rogue beats a rogue/ninja. A sorcerer/warlock actaully is equal to a wizard/sorcerer. But one thing to mention is that +20d6 damage ninja/rogues have at level 19.
pigknight 10-04-07, 06:54 PM	Sudden strike can be used in place of sneak attack for Prc qualification, meaning they are not that different. I just see sudden strike as a weaker form. They are basically the same thing, but the class that has sneak attack is better at it so they don't need as much setup. Example: The ninja has to have you flat-footed or he can't hit vital areas, but the rogue is so good as long as there is the slightest distraction, as in you being flanked, he can still hit you in vital areas. If sneak attack can't stack with sneak then it does not make sense for sudden strike to do it. doesn't sneak attack stack with sneak attack?
Hsien 10-04-07, 08:10 PM	the extra damage from the sudden strike ability stacks with the extra damage from sneak attack whenever both would apply to that same target. bold mine It indicates that they stack if both would apply to the target. Sudden has one less trigger, does not trigger on flank. So a flanked but not FF/denied dex mob would not take Sudden damage. It's really no different then sneak and skirmish stacking (essentially) if both types of precision damage are triggered. Sudden and Sneak get confused because they share similarities is all, but they are different.
deathbane 10-11-07, 01:50 AM	doesn't sneak attack stack with sneak attack? Concerning regular classes If two classes that have sneak attack such as a rogue/assassin are both taken they build on each other because it is looked on as an increase of an ability that was already there. If you had a rogue and another class with sneak attack they would not stack. Concerning gestalt classes Sudden strike is a lesser form of sneak attack as explained in one of my earlier post, so they should not stack. Another example was the 10d6 per attack at level 9 for a possible 30d6 before anything else is added in. after edit I am done debating the point however