Rolls for everything? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Rolls for everything? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ShinoAburame
02-09-07, 06:42 PM I was talking about in another topic about this, but wouldn't it be a good ruling to have players roll for virtualy everything? To make things more interesting and gritty.

HP:
Obviously HP is rolled, but immagine it rolled every level!

Skillpoints:
Never considerd, but could be interesting to have players roll for skillpoints.

Starting gold:
Most games I play starting gold is fixed, people can't get /33t gear this way.

Feat points:
This might require some heavy thinking to balance out feats, but it could help make things more interesting if instead of gaining a feat every third level have to aquire enough points for the feat they want but gain points every level.

Mana:
Instead of spellpoints, spellcasters be required to roll mana points every level. This can help balance out spellcasters like sorcerers vs druids if say a sorcerer rolls a d12 for mana and druids roll a d3.

What'chu think? I love rougelike games like nethack, and this might help get that grim feeling asscosiated with such a game.
Sylvaroth
02-09-07, 06:57 PM As far as I am involved, this is simply too much rolling and a too high level of randomness to be fun.

It is your game however, so try it and tell us how it worked out.

As for the feat points: Look here (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/featpointsystem.html).

Btw. what are rougelike games? Is it all about who's got the better make-up?

Just kidding :D
Ace_of_Diamonds
02-09-07, 06:59 PM Skillpoints:
Never considerd, but could be interesting to have players roll for skillpoints.

I experimented with this once. The conversion was simple. 2 skill points becomes 1d4 skill points, 4 skill points becomes 1d6 skill points, 6 skill points becomes 1d10 skill points, 8 skill points becomes 1d12 skill points.

My players didn't like it and by level 5 we converted back to the default method and redid their skills.
Tyler Do'Urden
02-10-07, 10:29 AM I experimented with this once. The conversion was simple. 2 skill points becomes 1d4 skill points, 4 skill points becomes 1d6 skill points, 6 skill points becomes 1d10 skill points, 8 skill points becomes 1d12 skill points.
Wouldn't 4 become 1d8, 6 would be 1d12, and 8 would be 1d16 which we don't really have so I guess 2d8?
ShinoAburame
02-10-07, 01:18 PM I'd probably give players a bit of legroom with skillpoints via dice roll.

2=2d3
4=2d4
6=2d8
8=2d12

And combined with feat points and etc, it'd probably be more practical to use the generic class system.
Sylvaroth
02-10-07, 03:01 PM That's much too extreme. Let's look at an example:

1. Core: 8 skill points.
2. Ace_of_Diamonds: 1d12 skill points.
3. Tyler Do'Urden: 2d8 skill points.
4. ShinoAburame: 2d12.

Minimum skill points:
1. 1
2. 1
3. 2
4. 2

Average skill points:
1. 8
2. 6 to 7
3. 8 to 10
4. 12 to 14

Maximum skill points:
1. 8
2. 12
3. 16
4. 24

Now let's imagine Lucky Boy (Ranger) joins an adventuring group consisting of Average Joe (Ranger) and Mr. BadLuck (Ranger). At every level after the first they will have to decide how to spend their skill points:
LB (6 to 16)
AJ (6 to 10)
BL (1 to 2)
Summing up all skill points over the course of 19 levels (excluding 1st):
LB (114 to 304)
AJ (114 to 190)
BL (19 to 38)

See where this is going? And that's just with one and the same class.
I'd say, as with critical fumble variants, if it penalizes the characters, it kills the fun of the game.
Also, as I already mentioned, it's simply too much unnecessary work.
How will you ever be able to figure out, how many skill points a character got at which level? Will you roll only once at first level to determine how much skill points a character will get each level? What about NPCs, monsters, random encounters?
ShinoAburame
02-10-07, 06:50 PM Well, monsters can have set skills and stuffs ofcourse, they're not PCs.

I figured the roll thing worked because all people are not created equaly. The likelyhood that one ranger is strictly worse then the other is highly unlikely.

If he rolled worse in skillpoints, there's always the chance he could roll better in mana, (which he starts getting at fourth level less it's some spell-less variant) HP, stats, (course he'd have to luckout at the beggeining of the game) or feat points.

True it can be painstaking, but is also can be very rewarding and include a very diverse amount of characters. Despite being the same exact class!
Sylvaroth
02-10-07, 07:34 PM There are simply far too many IFs. There are players who roll very poorly almost exclusively. Why do you want to punish such players?
I took three rangers to show you the big gap between individuals of the same class. When there are such great differences, they will be even bigger for different classes.
Especially for such things as skills, I don't think randomness is much in demand.
You have to learn certain things to be able to perform them. True some people are better at swimming, jumping, negotiating, etc., but for the sake of balance, why would you want to set some individuals THAT far apart?
I'd take a set number of skill points over a die roll with a range of 1 to 24 any day.

It's your game however, so just go ahead and do it!

Just my :twocents:
Ace_of_Diamonds
02-11-07, 12:22 PM Wouldn't 4 become 1d8, 6 would be 1d12, and 8 would be 1d16 which we don't really have so I guess 2d8?

Technically, if we wanted to make the average rolls equal to the core skill points, it would be this:

2: 1d3
4: 1d7
6: 1d11
8: 1d15

In order for the average roll to be a whole number, the die has to have an odd-numbered amout of faces.
Tyler Do'Urden
02-11-07, 02:13 PM That's fine, but I lost my d7. And trying to picture what a d11 would look like is making my brain come out.

Really though, I don't mind the average being half a point higher than the core value because 1) people don't usually have odd-sided dice and 2) it helps even the score on those levels where you roll below par.
Ace_of_Diamonds
02-11-07, 02:22 PM That's fine, but I lost my d7. And trying to picture what a d11 would look like is making my brain come out.

Really though, I don't mind the average being half a point higher than the core value because 1) people don't usually have odd-sided dice and 2) it helps even the score on those levels where you roll below par.

I'll agree with that. 1d4, 1d8, and 1d12 sound good for the first three, in that case. I think it would be a bit unfair to make the fouth 2d8 and have it on a bell curve probability instead of a linear probability like the other three. So, officially, it would be 1d16, which could be approached three ways.

1. Roll a d20. Ignore results of 17-20 and reroll.
2. Roll a d4 and a d8. 1-2 on the d4 indicates that the d8 roll is the result. 3-4 on the d4 indicates to add 8 to the d8 roll (a range of 9-16).
3. Bribe Chessex to custom make you a 16-sided die.
Sleepwalker13666
02-11-07, 02:38 PM Wouldn't 4 become 1d8, 6 would be 1d12, and 8 would be 1d16 which we don't really have so I guess 2d8?

Actually there is a 1d16, I own three own them, they're rare, and I've found it's even rarer that they come up.

Some other oddities that have been made are 1d5, 1d7, 1d46, 1d50, 1d64 and 1d70.

I used to work at a game store and we had some of these available.
Sylvaroth
02-11-07, 02:40 PM Every die (http://gamestation.net/category/1003.1009/) you'd ever need ;)
Tyler Do'Urden
02-11-07, 07:46 PM Actually there is a 1d16, I own three own them...Obviously, you were not included in "we".
xandros2000
02-13-07, 02:25 AM Oh my god! I have never seen a D16 or D24. I have to have them. I just have to have every type of die I can find. Which is especially obsessive since I have a die-roller on my laptop (which I use as a DM screen) and it can generate any random range, even odd ones.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShinoAburame 02-09-07, 06:42 PM	I was talking about in another topic about this, but wouldn't it be a good ruling to have players roll for virtualy everything? To make things more interesting and gritty. HP: Obviously HP is rolled, but immagine it rolled every level! Skillpoints: Never considerd, but could be interesting to have players roll for skillpoints. Starting gold: Most games I play starting gold is fixed, people can't get /33t gear this way. Feat points: This might require some heavy thinking to balance out feats, but it could help make things more interesting if instead of gaining a feat every third level have to aquire enough points for the feat they want but gain points every level. Mana: Instead of spellpoints, spellcasters be required to roll mana points every level. This can help balance out spellcasters like sorcerers vs druids if say a sorcerer rolls a d12 for mana and druids roll a d3. What'chu think? I love rougelike games like nethack, and this might help get that grim feeling asscosiated with such a game.
Sylvaroth 02-09-07, 06:57 PM	As far as I am involved, this is simply too much rolling and a too high level of randomness to be fun. It is your game however, so try it and tell us how it worked out. As for the feat points: Look here (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/featpointsystem.html). Btw. what are rougelike games? Is it all about who's got the better make-up? Just kidding :D
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-09-07, 06:59 PM	Skillpoints: Never considerd, but could be interesting to have players roll for skillpoints. I experimented with this once. The conversion was simple. 2 skill points becomes 1d4 skill points, 4 skill points becomes 1d6 skill points, 6 skill points becomes 1d10 skill points, 8 skill points becomes 1d12 skill points. My players didn't like it and by level 5 we converted back to the default method and redid their skills.
Tyler Do'Urden 02-10-07, 10:29 AM	I experimented with this once. The conversion was simple. 2 skill points becomes 1d4 skill points, 4 skill points becomes 1d6 skill points, 6 skill points becomes 1d10 skill points, 8 skill points becomes 1d12 skill points. Wouldn't 4 become 1d8, 6 would be 1d12, and 8 would be 1d16 which we don't really have so I guess 2d8?
ShinoAburame 02-10-07, 01:18 PM	I'd probably give players a bit of legroom with skillpoints via dice roll. 2=2d3 4=2d4 6=2d8 8=2d12 And combined with feat points and etc, it'd probably be more practical to use the generic class system.
Sylvaroth 02-10-07, 03:01 PM	That's much too extreme. Let's look at an example: 1. Core: 8 skill points. 2. Ace_of_Diamonds: 1d12 skill points. 3. Tyler Do'Urden: 2d8 skill points. 4. ShinoAburame: 2d12. Minimum skill points: 1. 1 2. 1 3. 2 4. 2 Average skill points: 1. 8 2. 6 to 7 3. 8 to 10 4. 12 to 14 Maximum skill points: 1. 8 2. 12 3. 16 4. 24 Now let's imagine Lucky Boy (Ranger) joins an adventuring group consisting of Average Joe (Ranger) and Mr. BadLuck (Ranger). At every level after the first they will have to decide how to spend their skill points: LB (6 to 16) AJ (6 to 10) BL (1 to 2) Summing up all skill points over the course of 19 levels (excluding 1st): LB (114 to 304) AJ (114 to 190) BL (19 to 38) See where this is going? And that's just with one and the same class. I'd say, as with critical fumble variants, if it penalizes the characters, it kills the fun of the game. Also, as I already mentioned, it's simply too much unnecessary work. How will you ever be able to figure out, how many skill points a character got at which level? Will you roll only once at first level to determine how much skill points a character will get each level? What about NPCs, monsters, random encounters?
ShinoAburame 02-10-07, 06:50 PM	Well, monsters can have set skills and stuffs ofcourse, they're not PCs. I figured the roll thing worked because all people are not created equaly. The likelyhood that one ranger is strictly worse then the other is highly unlikely. If he rolled worse in skillpoints, there's always the chance he could roll better in mana, (which he starts getting at fourth level less it's some spell-less variant) HP, stats, (course he'd have to luckout at the beggeining of the game) or feat points. True it can be painstaking, but is also can be very rewarding and include a very diverse amount of characters. Despite being the same exact class!
Sylvaroth 02-10-07, 07:34 PM	There are simply far too many IFs. There are players who roll very poorly almost exclusively. Why do you want to punish such players? I took three rangers to show you the big gap between individuals of the same class. When there are such great differences, they will be even bigger for different classes. Especially for such things as skills, I don't think randomness is much in demand. You have to learn certain things to be able to perform them. True some people are better at swimming, jumping, negotiating, etc., but for the sake of balance, why would you want to set some individuals THAT far apart? I'd take a set number of skill points over a die roll with a range of 1 to 24 any day. It's your game however, so just go ahead and do it! Just my :twocents:
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-11-07, 12:22 PM	Wouldn't 4 become 1d8, 6 would be 1d12, and 8 would be 1d16 which we don't really have so I guess 2d8? Technically, if we wanted to make the average rolls equal to the core skill points, it would be this: 2: 1d3 4: 1d7 6: 1d11 8: 1d15 In order for the average roll to be a whole number, the die has to have an odd-numbered amout of faces.
Tyler Do'Urden 02-11-07, 02:13 PM	That's fine, but I lost my d7. And trying to picture what a d11 would look like is making my brain come out. Really though, I don't mind the average being half a point higher than the core value because 1) people don't usually have odd-sided dice and 2) it helps even the score on those levels where you roll below par.
Ace_of_Diamonds 02-11-07, 02:22 PM	That's fine, but I lost my d7. And trying to picture what a d11 would look like is making my brain come out. Really though, I don't mind the average being half a point higher than the core value because 1) people don't usually have odd-sided dice and 2) it helps even the score on those levels where you roll below par. I'll agree with that. 1d4, 1d8, and 1d12 sound good for the first three, in that case. I think it would be a bit unfair to make the fouth 2d8 and have it on a bell curve probability instead of a linear probability like the other three. So, officially, it would be 1d16, which could be approached three ways. 1. Roll a d20. Ignore results of 17-20 and reroll. 2. Roll a d4 and a d8. 1-2 on the d4 indicates that the d8 roll is the result. 3-4 on the d4 indicates to add 8 to the d8 roll (a range of 9-16). 3. Bribe Chessex to custom make you a 16-sided die.
Sleepwalker13666 02-11-07, 02:38 PM	Wouldn't 4 become 1d8, 6 would be 1d12, and 8 would be 1d16 which we don't really have so I guess 2d8? Actually there is a 1d16, I own three own them, they're rare, and I've found it's even rarer that they come up. Some other oddities that have been made are 1d5, 1d7, 1d46, 1d50, 1d64 and 1d70. I used to work at a game store and we had some of these available.
Sylvaroth 02-11-07, 02:40 PM	Every die (http://gamestation.net/category/1003.1009/) you'd ever need ;)
Tyler Do'Urden 02-11-07, 07:46 PM	Actually there is a 1d16, I own three own them...Obviously, you were not included in "we".
xandros2000 02-13-07, 02:25 AM	Oh my god! I have never seen a D16 or D24. I have to have them. I just have to have every type of die I can find. Which is especially obsessive since I have a die-roller on my laptop (which I use as a DM screen) and it can generate any random range, even odd ones.