Sanity points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sanity points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tazi Swiftblade
06-16-06, 02:47 PM Anyone remember the great sanity point system in the Call of Cthulhu game?

Basically the idea was that every time your character saw something gruesome, otherworldly or beyond comprehension, you made a "sanity check." If you failed, you went bonkers temporarily. Go bonkers enough and it becomes a permanent thing.

Has anyone here tried to apply such a rule to a D&D game?

Obviously, in a fantasy game it makes no sense for players to make sanity checks every time they enounter an orc or gnoll. But it seems like demons, beholders and other extremely frightening baddies might shock some characters -- even experienced adventurers -- right into the loony bin.
Verelor
06-16-06, 08:07 PM Of course not, who would ever attempt such a rediculous idea, especially one that is a part of the SRD! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm)
Phoenix Knight
06-18-06, 04:35 PM For a while I liked the UA sanity rules and used them in a couple of campaigns. I eventually came to the conclusion, however, that such rules are detrimental to long-term campaigns, which is something many D&D games are intended to be.

I think a typically CoC game is shorter and more episodic, and thus its more okay if characters go nuts.

But the downward spiral of sanity combined with the need to fight monsters to gain levels means almost all high level characters will eventually become almost unplayably insane.
Aurotuli
06-18-06, 09:01 PM I prefer the system used in Ravenloft - Fear / Horror / Madness DCs. Fail a save in one by a certain amount (I think it was failure by 10 or more.) results in also having to make a save in the next category: Fail a horror check by ten and you make a roll verse madness. If that succeeds you are still horrified - just not mad, or something like that. Been a while since I played Ravenloft.

Speaking or Ravenloft, I really really hope the upcoming Castle Ravenloft will not have either the UA / CoC Sanity rules or the Taint rules from HoH.
CryoSilver
06-18-06, 09:06 PM I use a Sanity system in my game.

Sanity

Sanity is a system by which a character’s mental health is gauged in-game. It represents both the character’s mental stability and overall health and resistance to insanity. In many ways, this system was derived from that of Call to Cthulu, but adjusted heavily to fit the more heroic world of Dungeons and Dragons.

Initial Sanity = Wisdom * 10
Maximum Sanity = 200 or Wisdom * 10 (whichever higher)
Recovery of Sanity: 1 point per week between instances of Sanity loss, 1d6 Sanity regained at each level up, Restoration restores 1 point of Sanity, Greater Restoration restores 1d4 points. Institutionalizing (which means living at a temple or other place with skilled healers with good bedside manners) restores 2 points per week between losses (but see below).
Sanity loss is based on Will saves and varies based on the experience. For DMs: typical Sanity loss should be such that average damage id equal to the EL of the encounter, or the party’s level, whichever higher or more relevant, with a save DC equal to 10+1/2 the party’s level.

Initial Sanity: A character has this much Sanity upon creation.
Maximum Sanity: A character can never have more than this many Sanity points.

Institutionalizing: Each week, the healer must make a special Heal check with a DC equal to the difference between the characters maximum Sanity and current Sanity (yes, this DC can become obscenely high very fast, but that's half the point). The healer uses his Cha modifier in place of his Wis modifier for this check. Furthermore, he may add half his ranks in Diplomacy as a bonus on this check. If he knows what event contributed most to the patient's insanity, he gains a further +2 bonus on the check. If successful, the patient regains 2 Sanity points. If the check fails by less than 5, no progress is made, but no penalties are assessed. If the check fails by more than 5, the patient loses 1 point of Sanity. If the healer ever rolls a natural 1 on this check, the patient loses 1d4 Sanity and goes temporarily insane. The healer may not take 10 on this check.

Temporary Insanity: a character becomes temporarily insane if he loses a number Sanity points equal to his Wisdom score within 1 hour. Temporary insanity lasts 1d4 rounds, plus 1d6 hours of secondary insanity effects.
Possible effects include (but are not limited to): unconsciousness, random actions, fleeing, screaming and not taking any other actions, cowering, drooling like an idiot, oblivious to the world around, etc. Following 1d4 rounds of that, the character suffers 1d6 hours of related but less serious symptoms. These may include: twitchiness, paranoia, insomnia, deafness, muteness, babbling, etc. In general, these symptoms result in a -2 penalty on all checks, rolls, saves, etc, while they are in effect.

Indefinite Insanity: a character becomes indefinitely insane if he loses a number of Sanity points equal to 50% of his maximum Sanity in one day. The effects of indefinite insanity last 3d4 months, and may include any mental disorder the DM deems fitting. In general, these disorders impose a -2 penalty on Will saves and a -1 morale penalty on all other rolls while in effect (though these may change appropriate to the affliction).

Permanent Insanity: if a character ever loses all of his Sanity, he becomes permanently insane. The only way to reverse this is to cast Miracle, Greater Restoration and Heal on the character, in that order. Permanent insanity places the character under the DM’s control, and imposes any number of other interesting effects at his discretion. If playing with Call to Cthulu as a supplement, the character gains the Cult Sorcerer template if he doesn't die or pass beyond the veil of meaningful interaction with the real world.
The_Normal_Anomaly
06-18-06, 10:10 PM So I gather that if you fail in a standard game, you would get the "tainted raver" template in Heroes of Horror. That book has some good mental problems that you could use, tied to a taint system, or sanity system depending on how you see it.
Hochiu
06-18-06, 11:02 PM The problem with the sanity system in D&D is that D&D contains such fantasic elements to it that everything needs to be rare. I mean, there's a sanity loss in the Call of Cthulhu game for seeing a mutilated animal corpse. The sanity rules were really designed, I believe, to represent something that modern (sheltered) people couldn't easily fathom.

But in D&D, when you have such a fantasic world, the players are affected by that mindset. In Cthulhu, they know something's up, and it helps fuel their paranoia or suspense. In D&D, they expect fantasy, and rather high levels of it at that.

For adventurers:
Magic is existent enough to be counted as a core class in D&D. Magic items are written into the mechanical system that defines what a "challenge" is for D&D. People communicate with gods and cast magic fueled by them, speak with avatars and see monsters that shouldn't exsit in our reality.

All of those things were written into the sanity system as something that was not PROPER given the mentality.

It's very, very hard to pull off using sanity rules with the core D&D books without serious alteration.
Senevri
06-19-06, 01:29 PM Sanity damage resistance. CoC d20.
Hochiu
06-19-06, 01:38 PM Then what's the point of running sanity rules?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tazi Swiftblade 06-16-06, 02:47 PM	Anyone remember the great sanity point system in the Call of Cthulhu game? Basically the idea was that every time your character saw something gruesome, otherworldly or beyond comprehension, you made a "sanity check." If you failed, you went bonkers temporarily. Go bonkers enough and it becomes a permanent thing. Has anyone here tried to apply such a rule to a D&D game? Obviously, in a fantasy game it makes no sense for players to make sanity checks every time they enounter an orc or gnoll. But it seems like demons, beholders and other extremely frightening baddies might shock some characters -- even experienced adventurers -- right into the loony bin.
Verelor 06-16-06, 08:07 PM	Of course not, who would ever attempt such a rediculous idea, especially one that is a part of the SRD! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm)
Phoenix Knight 06-18-06, 04:35 PM	For a while I liked the UA sanity rules and used them in a couple of campaigns. I eventually came to the conclusion, however, that such rules are detrimental to long-term campaigns, which is something many D&D games are intended to be. I think a typically CoC game is shorter and more episodic, and thus its more okay if characters go nuts. But the downward spiral of sanity combined with the need to fight monsters to gain levels means almost all high level characters will eventually become almost unplayably insane.
Aurotuli 06-18-06, 09:01 PM	I prefer the system used in Ravenloft - Fear / Horror / Madness DCs. Fail a save in one by a certain amount (I think it was failure by 10 or more.) results in also having to make a save in the next category: Fail a horror check by ten and you make a roll verse madness. If that succeeds you are still horrified - just not mad, or something like that. Been a while since I played Ravenloft. Speaking or Ravenloft, I really really hope the upcoming Castle Ravenloft will not have either the UA / CoC Sanity rules or the Taint rules from HoH.
CryoSilver 06-18-06, 09:06 PM	I use a Sanity system in my game. Sanity Sanity is a system by which a character’s mental health is gauged in-game. It represents both the character’s mental stability and overall health and resistance to insanity. In many ways, this system was derived from that of Call to Cthulu, but adjusted heavily to fit the more heroic world of Dungeons and Dragons. Initial Sanity = Wisdom * 10 Maximum Sanity = 200 or Wisdom * 10 (whichever higher) Recovery of Sanity: 1 point per week between instances of Sanity loss, 1d6 Sanity regained at each level up, Restoration restores 1 point of Sanity, Greater Restoration restores 1d4 points. Institutionalizing (which means living at a temple or other place with skilled healers with good bedside manners) restores 2 points per week between losses (but see below). Sanity loss is based on Will saves and varies based on the experience. For DMs: typical Sanity loss should be such that average damage id equal to the EL of the encounter, or the party’s level, whichever higher or more relevant, with a save DC equal to 10+1/2 the party’s level. Initial Sanity: A character has this much Sanity upon creation. Maximum Sanity: A character can never have more than this many Sanity points. Institutionalizing: Each week, the healer must make a special Heal check with a DC equal to the difference between the characters maximum Sanity and current Sanity (yes, this DC can become obscenely high very fast, but that's half the point). The healer uses his Cha modifier in place of his Wis modifier for this check. Furthermore, he may add half his ranks in Diplomacy as a bonus on this check. If he knows what event contributed most to the patient's insanity, he gains a further +2 bonus on the check. If successful, the patient regains 2 Sanity points. If the check fails by less than 5, no progress is made, but no penalties are assessed. If the check fails by more than 5, the patient loses 1 point of Sanity. If the healer ever rolls a natural 1 on this check, the patient loses 1d4 Sanity and goes temporarily insane. The healer may not take 10 on this check. Temporary Insanity: a character becomes temporarily insane if he loses a number Sanity points equal to his Wisdom score within 1 hour. Temporary insanity lasts 1d4 rounds, plus 1d6 hours of secondary insanity effects. Possible effects include (but are not limited to): unconsciousness, random actions, fleeing, screaming and not taking any other actions, cowering, drooling like an idiot, oblivious to the world around, etc. Following 1d4 rounds of that, the character suffers 1d6 hours of related but less serious symptoms. These may include: twitchiness, paranoia, insomnia, deafness, muteness, babbling, etc. In general, these symptoms result in a -2 penalty on all checks, rolls, saves, etc, while they are in effect. Indefinite Insanity: a character becomes indefinitely insane if he loses a number of Sanity points equal to 50% of his maximum Sanity in one day. The effects of indefinite insanity last 3d4 months, and may include any mental disorder the DM deems fitting. In general, these disorders impose a -2 penalty on Will saves and a -1 morale penalty on all other rolls while in effect (though these may change appropriate to the affliction). Permanent Insanity: if a character ever loses all of his Sanity, he becomes permanently insane. The only way to reverse this is to cast Miracle, Greater Restoration and Heal on the character, in that order. Permanent insanity places the character under the DM’s control, and imposes any number of other interesting effects at his discretion. If playing with Call to Cthulu as a supplement, the character gains the Cult Sorcerer template if he doesn't die or pass beyond the veil of meaningful interaction with the real world.
The_Normal_Anomaly 06-18-06, 10:10 PM	So I gather that if you fail in a standard game, you would get the "tainted raver" template in Heroes of Horror. That book has some good mental problems that you could use, tied to a taint system, or sanity system depending on how you see it.
Hochiu 06-18-06, 11:02 PM	The problem with the sanity system in D&D is that D&D contains such fantasic elements to it that everything needs to be rare. I mean, there's a sanity loss in the Call of Cthulhu game for seeing a mutilated animal corpse. The sanity rules were really designed, I believe, to represent something that modern (sheltered) people couldn't easily fathom. But in D&D, when you have such a fantasic world, the players are affected by that mindset. In Cthulhu, they know something's up, and it helps fuel their paranoia or suspense. In D&D, they expect fantasy, and rather high levels of it at that. For adventurers: Magic is existent enough to be counted as a core class in D&D. Magic items are written into the mechanical system that defines what a "challenge" is for D&D. People communicate with gods and cast magic fueled by them, speak with avatars and see monsters that shouldn't exsit in our reality. All of those things were written into the sanity system as something that was not PROPER given the mentality. It's very, very hard to pull off using sanity rules with the core D&D books without serious alteration.
Senevri 06-19-06, 01:29 PM	Sanity damage resistance. CoC d20.
Hochiu 06-19-06, 01:38 PM	Then what's the point of running sanity rules?