Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alyss 03-29-08, 09:21 PM	I've been roleplaying a rape victim over at the Respite (http://therespite.informe.com/forum/)for a while now, and recently the question of her recovery came up. While we were talking about how to handle it, the sanity rules from Unearthed Acana came up. It was here that I discovered that they don't really portray mental illness very well, at all. My character had been a long-term sufferer of domestic abuse by her parents up until the age of 17, and was raped at the age of 18 (not that the two are connected). Anyway: here's were the insanity rules fall down. According to the rules, Eloise (my character) would only go into indefinite insanity and develop a mental illness if she lost 20% or more of her San in one hour. She hasn't, and never has. She's been exposed to psychologically damaging stimulus over a long period of time (her rape being the exception). The insanity rules don't reflect this, and they should. Presumably, there are no insanity rules that cover long-term domestic abuse because it's pretty inconceivable that a game of D&D would end up with that in, ever. That said, the assumption that (under the Unearthed Arcana rules) most adventurers could get through rape and still remain sane is pretty optimistic: -Taking Wis 10 as an average score, the average hero has San 50. -Rape deals 1d10 San damage (torture). -The saving throw is a 50% percentile roll. -Half the time the adventurer will pass. -Even if they don't, the damage is a mere 1d10 points. -To go insane, we'd have to take the full 10 damage, which is only a 1 in 10 chance. -In all probability, we're going to end up with short-term temporary insanity (we get this if we loses 5-9 points of San and roll 01-80 on the table for duration). -These are the sorts of things we get from temporary: -Character faints (can be awakened by vigorous action taking 1 round; thereafter, character is shaken until duration expires). -Character has a screaming fit. -Character flees in panic. -Character shows physical hysterics or emotional outburst (laughing, crying, and so on). -Character babbles in incoherent rapid speech or in logorrhea (a torrent of coherent speech). -Character gripped by intense phobia, perhaps rooting her to the spot. -Character becomes homicidal, dealing harm to nearest person as efficiently as possible. -Character has hallucinations or delusions (details at the discretion of the GM). -Character gripped with echopraxia or echolalia (saying or doing whatever those nearby say or do). -Character gripped with strange or deviant eating desire (dirt, slime, cannibalism, and so on). -Character falls into a stupor (assumes fetal position, oblivious to events around her). -Character becomes catatonic (can stand but has no will or interest; may be led or forced to simple actions but takes no independent action). -In rare (1 in 100) cases, we get a long-tern temporary insanity effect anyway: -Character performs compulsive rituals (washing hands constantly, praying, walking in a particular rhythm, never stepping on cracks, constantly checking to see if crossbow is loaded, and so on). -Character has hallucinations or delusions (details at the discretion of the GM). -Character becomes paranoid. -Character gripped with severe phobia (refuses to approach object of phobia except on successful DC 20 Will save). -Character has aberrant sexual desires (exhibitionism, nymphomania or satyriasis, teratophilia, necrophilia, and so on). -Character develops an attachment to a “lucky charm” (embraces object, type of object, or person as a safety blanket) and cannot function without it. -Character develops psychosomatic blindness, deafness, or the loss of the use of a limb or limbs. -Character has uncontrollable tics or tremors (-4 penalty on all attack rolls, checks, and saves, except those purely mental in nature). -Character has amnesia (memories of intimates usually lost first; Knowledge skills useless). -Character has bouts of reactive psychosis (incoherence, delusions, aberrant behavior, and/or hallucinations). -Character loses ability to communicate via speech or writing. -Character becomes catatonic (can stand but has no will or interest; may be led or forced into simple actions but takes no independent action). -So I have a 50%, then 10%, then 20%, then 1% chance of getting a long-term, but temporary, mentall illness, after being raped. That is utter s***, to put it bluntly, and shows a complete lack of understanding of psychology. -Furthermore, some of the effects above simply wouldn't result from being raped. Rape Trauma Syndrome (RTS) is characterised by: -Re-experiencing the trauma (uncontrollable intrusive thoughts about the rape) -Social withdrawal -Avoidance behaviors (a general tendency to avoid any thoughts, feelings, or cues) -Irritability, hostility, rage and anger (Source (http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/effectsofrape.html). There's a longer article to go with it). -The short-term effects of RTS alone last up to 4 months (Source (http://www.medicineau.net.au/clinical/psychiatry/rts.html) This article is good too). The main problem with the sanity rules in D&D is that they are derived from the Cthulhu mythos, which are mainly concerned with the insanity that contact with alien beings imparts. Frankly, Lovecraft's take on psychology is badly thght-out even at this level (you would be unlikely to get anything worse that PTSD from the kind of experiences he mentions in his books, not total schizophrenia or psychosis). In conclusion, do not use the sanity rules from Unearthed Arcana. They're rubbish.
X0_Lt_0X 03-29-08, 10:31 PM	Well, DnD isn't really realistic anyways and I don't think very many people will care about how accurate or not this variant rule is. Besides, who uses variant rules like that anyways :rolleye2:
Rosisha 03-30-08, 01:15 AM	Okay.. you don't like the rules and that is cool, but the rules aren't meant to represent real world situations. They are meant to show what happens when a character is expossed to a cthulhu horror... and that isn't PTSD (having suffered from that for a while, I can tell you that it is brought on by the mundane,not the super alien). We've always used it as Alien Power beyond comprehension does X to your mind when you view it. This can turn into Y. But how you use it is cool. However, a rant like that I would expect some alternative rules that I can steal! So where are they?
Alyss 03-30-08, 08:03 AM	I'd thought about doing variant rules. My Ma's a psychiatric nurse, so I'd have a good source to pillage from.... But still, psychology is huge and complex (and still not fully understood), and etting down cncrete rules for it would be really hard. I may have a shot at it, as I've got 3 weeks off from Uni and thus free time... However, no rules are ever going to be as flexible as freeform. It's what I've been doing so far with my character, and what I intend to do in the future (unless, by some kind of miracle, these variant rules I'm gong to work on end up really good).
Patrick Draken-Korin 03-30-08, 12:32 PM	I've got to agree with your rant, though I admittedly have no experience with such matters. IMHO, sanity should allow for perspective to matter; "minor" trauma over time can be as bad or worse then quick and major. However I did come up with a simple variant rule, and would like your opnion. Do you mind if I post here, or should I start a new thread and leave a link?
Alyss 04-01-08, 08:21 PM	Go ahead. We can use this thread as the draft space for new rules.
Patrick Draken-Korin 04-02-08, 05:03 PM	Here’s an idea; make a Sanity variant that works in a manner similar to the Injury variant (for physical damage) in Unearthed Arcana. If your sanity is afflicted, make a will save, DC 10 + modifiers. If you succeed the save, no ill effects suffered. If you fail the save by less than 10 (1 to 9), your sanity is stressed. Each stress upon your sanity applies a cumulative -1 penalty on future will saves to maintain your sanity. If you fail the save by 10 or more, you become unstable. Automatic success and failure; of course, a natural 20 on the will save would mean no ill effects are suffered and a natural 1 would mean becoming unstable, just like the injury variant. Stressed: The character suffers "minor" mental anguish. Each batch of stress that a character suffers applies a cumulative -1 penalty on will saves to avoid further mental breakdown. If a character is unstable and is hit with additional stress, he/she becomes insane. One batch of stress could be seeing a friend killed, another just never showing your real personality for a week because everyone around would either take advantage of you or treat you like dirt. Unstable: The character’s mind has been shaken too the core, but still continues to hold some form of cohesion. I was going to have d4 roll here, 1, hysterical, 2 in shock, 3, the character faints, 4 loses all rational mean of communication (ala Haley in OotS). However, I've no real understanding of the matter and would rather leave that to be figured out by someone more knowledgeable. Insane: The character’s mind has been pushed too far, and now suffers total collapse of reason. I was going to have d6 roll here, 1, paranoia, 2 tics & tremors, 3, OCD, 4 a psychosomatic disability, 5 violently delusional, 6 severe hallucinations. My other problems are that I never came up with proper modifiers; what the stress was, how severe, etc. And recovery; spells and skill checks to recover from a batch of stress/being unstable, being insane. So, what do you think?
Alyss 04-04-08, 04:43 AM	As insanity rules go, not bad at all. I've been putting some rules together myself, but have hit a number of problems...I'll stick up what I've got then talk about why they're almost useless. Mental illness under the d20 system Foreword: Because the nature of the human psyche is a vast, complex topic, and psychology still does not have all the answers to the brain’s workings, these rules are fundamentally flawed and contain many gaps. We advise that simple role-playing and the judgement of the DM be used to fill any such gaps; indeed it is probably best of all to avoid rules completely if possible and convey the trauma of your character without rolling a single dice. That said, the current rules for ‘insanity’ are grossly out of date and poorly reflect the nature of mental illness. This revision is intended to move the rules away from their Cthulhu focus, and towards an accurate portrayal of the mind’s process. Again, because mental illness is a broad topic, these rules deal only with disorders that incapacitate the patient. These are the stereotypical disorders, such as schizophrenia or psychotic behaviour, and the ones that will grant the most interesting results in a d20 system game. Causes of mental illness: The causes of mental illness are as multiple as their results. Usually, no single cause is to blame for a disorder; genetics, circumstances of a person’s birth, infections and diseases, injuries, life events and stresses, and society or culture can all cause mental illness, but mixtures of several causes will increase the chance of a disorder developing. Past problems: Some causes of mental illness do not have a practical place in these rules. They are meant to deal with highly stressful situations that occur during a game session, and that the player had some involvement in. If a player wants his past to affect the present mental state of his character, that’s fine. But he didn’t make any saves against mental illness; he need only choose a disorder to develop. Genetics, circumstances of birth, and society and culture would all be termed as past events. Any of the other causes could have been a past event as well, but could also take place during a game session and are thus included in the rules below. Saves against mental illness: Whenever a character becomes exposed to one of the stimulus outlined below, he must make a Will save. Passing the save avoids any disorder from developing. Failure means that the character has developed a disorder. How severe the disorder is will depend on how severely he failed the save, and what the stimulus was. Even those who create the stimulus for mental illness must save against it. A serial killer who eats his victim, for example, is likely to slide further and further into insanity the more he does it. Modifiers to DCs: Certain situations will leave a character’s mind more vulnerable than others. These increases to the DC of the save are cumulative: http://209.85.12.236/5531/72/upload/p10676275.jpg Stimulus: The following is a list of stimulus that are likely to cause mental illness. This list is not exhaustive, and the DM may be called on to judge individual situations. As noted, the DCs for each stimulus vary according to whether the character views it or actually experiences it (the difference between seeing someone beaten to unconsciousness and being the victim yourself is huge, mentally as well as physically). http://209.85.12.236/5531/72/upload/p10676276.jpg Right: so my main problem is that much of what would could mental illness in RL has no practical application in a D&D game. Most people just manifest symptoms in their late teens/early twenties, largely because of genetics or how they were brought up. Stuff like that never, ever comes up in a D&D session, and would be pretty boring to RP for most people. RPing domestic violence is a hardcore RPers game, and certainly isn't going to be interesting for the other players at the table. The table for stimulus is so small, because if any average D&D character was a RL person, they'd be utterly insane. Going into dungeons and fighting undead monsters, seeing your friends killed on a regular basis (or even being killed yourself)? They'd have schizophrenia faster than you can say diazepam. Heck, I should have taken murder off that list too, PCs do that all the time. In RL, war veterans come back with all kinds of mental disorders! And the stuff that's left? Really, the list is so small it's not worth developing a whole system for it. Players should just do a bit of brief research into the effects of torture or rape and RP it.
Patrick Draken-Korin 04-05-08, 01:20 AM	The table for stimulus is so small, because if any average D&D character was a RL person, they'd be utterly insane. Going into dungeons and fighting undead monsters, seeing your friends killed on a regular basis (or even being killed yourself)? They'd have schizophrenia faster than you can say diazepam. Heck, I should have taken murder off that list too, PCs do that all the time. In RL, war veterans come back with all kinds of mental disorders! And the stuff that's left? Really, the list is so small it's not worth developing a whole system for it. Players should just do a bit of brief research into the effects of torture or rape and RP it.A very good point. Most fantasy books, whether classic sword and sorcery or more recent works tend to ignore how traumatizing such "adventure" would be to the average person. And who'd read the books if they didn't? MY attitude is twofold; first of all the world is harsher than RL, in certain ways. Not noticeably; not in any way that needs attention drawn to, except that people are a little more willing to accept that terrible things happen from nowhere or as a matter of course. In RL few towns were wiped out by marauding beasts, but dragons and other creatures in D&D are that dangerous. Similar stories and facts of life. Basically people are less sheltered. On the other hand they are more sheltered. a dragon destroys a town, a horde of slavering gnolls overrun a kingdom, and a few brave souls step forward and handle the situation. another fact of life, making things just a bit more bearable. And secondly the PCs are those brave souls. They have stories and legends going back who knows when about people like themselves stepping up to the plate when they were needed and taking on impossible odds. In worlds more heavily plagued by monsters, or where such threats and marvels are considered less than fantastic, it becomes even easier; it's their day job (not that meeting a god can't unhinge a legend). IMHO An average person shouldn't automatically become insane just for seeing a non-human, or even an aberration or a fiend (unless it's exceptionally mind-warping). Furthermore, a PC shouldn't be strongly affected by anything less than what would completely floor an average person. Essentially, I want realistic results, though I'd prefer that NPCs and PCs to be more resilient than in RL. As for stimuli provoking will saves, there were a few "regular effects"* I'd considered (firstly using ones from Unearthed Arcana); - Casting a spell that is mind-warping (Unearthed Arcana suggests a variant where all spells would be considered mind-warping, but I'd limit it either to specific spells like miracle and wish or odd spellcasting like incantations). - Sighting a creature of mind-warping potential (probably only specific creatures, rather than anything not natural). - Forbidden knowledge (though again less restrictive than Unearthed Arcana). Additionally; - Application of grafts (each graft could be a separate batch of stress, and having more grafts than a certain value (like your Wisdom modifier) could force a monthly save (spiraling down into madness). - Mind control; any time the character is forced to act in a manner other than their wishes or when their alignment or attitude is forcibly altered for a period of time. - Handling odd magical items; there's a reason item crafters make most of their devices under the same precise patterns- deviation form such patterns results in sanity damaging items (players want an item not available from a sourcebook? Make a will save the first time it is used and any time it is used while the character is unstable (or another vulnerable state). - Resurrection; I don't like level loss, so making a sanity save at resurrection or immediately applying a batch or stress without a save might be an alternate penalty. - Gaining a template; IMHO vampires and lycanthropes get the shot end of the stick in that their alignment changes automatically with the template. Why not apply some kind of regular sanity save, and only failed individuals go feral (after several repeated failures). It would allow for such creature to act as part of some kind of society without making it fully monster oriented. - I'll add drug consumption, because although some campaigns include the odd addicted character I hadn't considered it * Meaning effects that would come up with some regularity, but not so often as to tie up the game. Threats that occur often enough to be noticed, not often enough to be worth focusing on except for the odd campaign. One consideration would be combat vs murder; the heat of combat could be moderately traumatizing, but mostly it's the realization afterward that you've ended one or more lives. Making a save after each bout of combat would be reasonable in most campaigns, as long as the DC were suitably low; say DC 12 against a fight equal to the appropriate CR; low level characters suffer stress, but it gets less noticeable as they advance. not to say that they get used to it; that would be when it no longer bothers them and they don't make a save at all. Murder isn't precisely the same. Going into a dungeon after treasure and killing orcs that patrol the halls would be premeditated B&E, assault, and likely murder one, in a court case. But that's not the same in a setting based around adventurers; that would be little more than another reasonable combat situation (risking your life for wealth, not slaughtering people for loot). On the other hand deliberately locating an orc village and killing them, warriors and civilians, would be murder by the law and in the manner that adventurers couldn't (and shouldn't) shrug off. That goblins (http://goblinscomic.com/d/20050910.html) comic has a perfect example of a paladin who must be insane (psychotic stupid, rather than merely lawful stupid). ------ Then there's things like culture and society. - How traumatized would a drow be at finding a mangled human corpse; would it even considered as "humanoid" or as the same as an animal's corpse? - Atheists (and to a lesser extent, agnostics) meeting a deity. Conversely, a cleric meeting a deity that isn't what they expected (eberron system; lawful cleric for a chaotic deity). - What would an illithid consider to be forbidden knowledge? Would they be affected by forbidden knowledge concerning aboleths? - Would it be more mind-warping to have done/experienced something horrible and know it, or to have done something horrible, but repress it and learn the truth later? - You see a friend brutally murdered. You later resurrect the guy. Then he tells you off for not providing effective aid against the [insert monster]. Bwah? - Imagine a barbarian tribe (and not necessarily an evil one, note you) that believed the honorable dead should be cooked an eaten (passing their strengths to their fellows) while dishonorable dead should be cremated (sending them to some hell or just a form of limbo). Now imagine another culture, such as the New Guinea region where they practices cannibalism because there simply wasn't sufficient protein in their diet. Would they suffer sanity loss if a courageous comrade were killed and they were denied their right to eat him/her? Worse, the cannibal was the one to die, gets resurrected and tells the party off for not eating him/her. The marvels of a fantasy world dull some threats to one's sanity but exacerbate others.
Alyss 04-06-08, 09:36 PM	If you approach sanity rules with the attitude that the characters of D&D don't posses the same psyche as humans in real life, then you have a credible case for sanity rules in the first place. The kind of people we're talking about are the type who will do a dungeon crawl without any empathy for their foes, then go back to the nearest town and behave normally around other people. They have no nightmares about killing the goblins, and don't turn into psychopaths. That's fine, so long as everyone round the table is on the same level about what sanity is like in D&D. And, to be fair, it's the same model players have been using for years. I'm done with the project myself however, I just don't think it's worth it. Anyone that is still interested, feel free to use the small amounts of stuff I put up.
Patrick Draken-Korin 04-07-08, 03:02 PM	I don't blame you. The whole sanity deal is either A) too mild, allowing characters to get past what should drive anyone mad (quickly or slowly), or B) too extreme (IE too realistic) sucking the fun out of the game. And then there's option C), where the system is so complicated that you aren't sure if it's mild or extreme because you ignore the rules to actually get some game time. ------ Though I didn't give my NPC's and PC a different psyche than RL humans. Or at least I don't think so. Is just noting that their environment (both physical and cultural) is different; people are shocked an horrified whenever any tragedy happens. Such as; any RL person might take a hit to their sanity for seeing a dragon nesting in their garage. I could probably at least have a rational conversation with a dragon, if one were really there, though I might need to change my pants afterward. Same for an undead or aberration. But an elf? Or a grey alien, going for the sci-fi angle. However that's because I've read books, watched TV and movies, and played games to think outside the box, just a bit. Normal people in a fantasy realm should have at least that much understanding of the odder creatures (and magical effects), if not a lot more. However as for empathy toward opponents...that's more of a matter of alignment to my mind. A good character regrets any death, but that doesn't mean they won't kill under certain circumstances. An evil character doesn't regret the death of anyone outside their few friends and favored servants. However whether or not they regret a death, and whether or not they caused it, anyone can still be affected by it. The fact that a person could, when required, fight and kill an opponent was/is an important part of many societies; however not every soldier retains full metal cohesion. A single battle might be traumatizing, or a soldier might last an entire war (including participation in many battles) without losing their ability to relate to common people. Warfare (and adventuring) has required some level of training to treat opponents as targets rather than people. I suspect those soldiers (and adventurers) who can't separate the fighting and normal life are the ones who would have problems (aside from the whole I-could-have-died trauma and a I-watched-my-buddy-die trauma). Hmm. Okay, for sanity save provoking stimuli; - Any situation to maintain detachment; any time a character treats opponents as obstacles rather than people. Usually doesn't apply against non-sentient creatures. and "monsters" (such as anything likely to eat you) > DC 15, the DM may apply penalties on the check (any time there are feature's drawing the character's attention to the fact their opponents are people too). Watching a character maintain detachment doesn't provoke a sanity save (though it may make the watch get a chill down their spine or another colorful metaphor). - 2) Any life threatening situation; only when a character nearly dies (reduced to 0 hit points or lower or makes a save against a death effect). > DC 15, most characters stop worrying about life threating events once they reach mid to high levels (always making the save). Watching a character defy death isn't especially mind-warping, except for special circumstances (in which case an ad hoc DC is applied). - 3) murder; when the character simply slays a target out of hand or kills because they can (including killing wounded when they could reasonably be imprisoned). > DC 25 (committing murder), DC 20 to watch.