Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eliza_Stormwhisper 04-18-05, 01:21 AM	What do you think of these? If you roll a natural 20 on your saving throw, you will take minimum damage (which is usually halved). For example, if you get hit with a 10d6 fireball and roll a 20, you will take half of 10 (5) damage. It works the other way too. If you roll a natural 1 on your saving throw, you will take maximum damage. To go along with the 10d6 fireball example, if you roll a 1 against it you will take 60 damage (ouch). It also works in a certain sense against spells like slay living, which if you save against you take 3d6 damage (and if you fail you die). I may be wrong on the specifics, but you get the idea... so if you roll a 20 against said spell, you take 3 damage. Sounds kind of odd, since if you roll a 1 you can't take maximum (dead is dead, folks)... but I think it's fair.
Ra-Tiel 04-18-05, 03:43 AM	Hello. As for every houserule I say "handle with care". Remember such rules usually hurt PCs more than monsters/NPCs. With your rule, a nat1 on the ref save against a 5d6 fireball could very well spell death for the level 5 fighter (30 damage vs avg42hp with Con14). In my opinion, the effect of failing the save per se is bad enough for the nat1. There's absolutely no need to make it even more deadly. Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
HailSpork 04-18-05, 04:11 AM	I particularly hate it when I need a 2 to make the save, and I roll a nat 1. This would only make that worse, unless you put in a clause that if your saving throw is higher than the save dc the max damage thing is ignored. Either that, or use a roll to confirm a critical failure.
Thelon Fairblade 04-18-05, 10:10 AM	HailSpork's point is a good example of what my group calls "spider rules"... suddenly this simple straight-forward house rule grows as odd situations require exceptions and examples and what-ifs. I don't think the rule is necessary. Failing or Making the save is penalty/reward enough. What I will do sometimes, though, is add some kind of dramatic extra to the effect. For example, maybe a fighter ducking around a corner at extreme range from the fireball avoided all the damage with a nat-20, or maybe he was blown backwards 5' by the force of the blast on a natural 1... but no hard and fast mechanic, and no extra effect everytime - the point is to make things dramatic, and the extreme dice roll provides an excuse for you (the GM) to do so. As an alternate rule, though, you could use the attack roll suggestion; perhaps a "1" is a -10 (or -5, if you prefer)... an ancient Collossal dragon with +29 Fort save might not fail that finger-of-death spell even on a "1", while the 1st level fighter with +0 Will save won't succeed against the 16th level optimized enchanter's Dominate Monster spell even with a natural 20... Edit: Sorry, one more comment - remember that any spell that requires an attack roll can already critically hit on a nat 20 for double damage... there's your critical hit effect. You could mean and have a "strike self" result for a confirmed fumble on a natural "1"....
Ra-Tiel 04-18-05, 10:37 AM	[...] As an alternate rule, though, you could use the attack roll suggestion; perhaps a "1" is a -10 (or -5, if you prefer)... an ancient Collossal dragon with +29 Fort save might not fail that finger-of-death spell even on a "1", while the 1st level fighter with +0 Will save won't succeed against the 16th level optimized enchanter's Dominate Monster spell even with a natural 20... [...] Hi. Remember (just like with attack rolls): Automatic Failures and Successes: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure (and may cause damage to exposed items; see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success. Greetings, _Ra-Tiel.
Thelon Fairblade 04-19-05, 08:45 AM	(Actually, Ra-Tiel, there is an Optional rule in the DMG to treat "1" as a "-10" and "20" as a "30". The intent is that very skilled combatants can sometimes simply *not* miss a vulnerable target; likewise, exceptionally unskilled combatants can sometimes simply *not* hit a superbly defended target. For example, a creature with +2 attack bonus or less *cannot* hit an elven Monk 1/Sorcerer 1 with 20 DEX, 18 WIS, Tumble 5, Mage Armor, Shield, and Total Defense - AC 33!)