Second by second Combat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Second by second Combat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
loganic1
02-04-08, 03:35 AM This is a system I was toying with for a campaign that never happened.

Initiative is still taken. Rather though, every point represents an extra second of time you have.

Full Round action - 6 seconds
Move Action - 2.75 seconds
Standard action - 3.25 seconds
free action, 5 foot step - 0 seconds, but same rules apply as to how often every turn they can be done,
(Fractions are rounded unless otherwise combined)

A full round attack is judged from attack to attack. If with haste or whatever, a warrior gets 3 attacks for that round, he can take the full round action . The attack is executed at the beginning of every 2 seconds of that full round and the rest of the time is consider recovery.
That doesn't mean he can make a two second attack every time he feels like it, but only when he dedicates the next 6 seconds to standing firm. If for some reason, like that the villain has taken a 5 foot step out his reach middle of his attack. Say 4 seconds into his attack, the villain moves back 5 feet and starts casting something. He's gotten 2 attacks so far. One at second 1 of his round and one at second 3. He recovers after second 4 and instead of attacking again, takes a second to stop his full round attack, takes a 5 foot step with the villain and starts attacking again.

Breakdown for the fighter

1 Initiates full round attack, first attack
2 Recovers
3 Intiates second attack
4 Recovers, Villain moves away
5 Stops full round attack
6 Takes 5 foot step and initiates full round attack again, First attack

This changes the feel of combat, since turns overlap. People who move during the same second go based on initiative. This strengthens castors, since they can cast multiple standard action spells slightly more quickly if they choose not to use move actions

A castor who casts only standards, has the following cast time
3.75
7.5
11.25
15

that means he can cast 4 spells in 2 and half rounds, if he remains a sitting duck.
I haven't decided how the rounding should work. If that's too powerful, I can assume that only standard and move actions can take advantage of the fractions, so a castor essentially takes 4 seconds to cast
4
8
12
16
That means they dont gain a second.

Anyways, those are my ideas. They still need heavy refining so any input would be appreciated.

Things like Time stop and belt of battle should just compress what happens in a 2-5 turns to 6 turns
Xaer
02-04-08, 04:28 AM My opinion: KISS it a bit
Main limitation is that you're trying to do it on a per-second basis, which only gives you 6 seconds, and ends up with fractions.
Suggestion: Do a round in 100 parts, rather than 6. This helps when dividing up the round to prevent such silliness as the "4 spells every 2.5 rounds".
From there, you could technically turn it into a freeform system where faster characters get turns more often, though the backtground mechanics start getting mean there.
Zog_Jakome
02-04-08, 04:29 AM that is a cool idea though it takes a lot of work to get it working correctly but it would seem it slows things down a lot in real time.

I often wondered how a fighter can get 8 attacks in a full-round action which is six seconds but only 1 attack as a standard action which is a a little more time it takes to stand up, or move 30 feet which takes about 2-3 seconds so it would seem that this fighter gets 8 attacks in six seconds but only one attack in 3-4 seconds meaning in 2-3 seconds he is making 7 attacks when it takes 3-4 seconds to make only one.:rant:
nonsi
02-04-08, 04:42 AM Something doesn't add up with your approach.
If a move action takes 2.75 seconds, how in the world can someone spend a full round action running to make 4 move actions ?

Also, you do understand your approach would bring the game down to a crawl on all combat situation, don't you ?

If you want a combat turn to allow more and a greater variety of things to happen, click my sig, go to the Revised Rules spoiler, search for "Multiple Attacks and Movement" and see if you like it.
loganic1
02-04-08, 05:55 AM Something doesn't add up with your approach.
If a move action takes 2.75 seconds, how in the world can someone spend a full round action running to make 4 move actions ?
Who gets 4 move actions during a full round? You can get two normally.
Run/sprint feat lets you move 50% faster in a line

Also, you do understand your approach would bring the game down to a crawl on all combat situation, don't you ?
Yes it would slow the game down some, but actually not too badly. It just takes a bit more dynamic tracking than the current initiative system.

If you want a combat turn to allow more and a greater variety of things to happen, click my sig, go to the Revised Rules spoiler, search for "Multiple Attacks and Movement" and see if you like it.
I will look into it. I just suppose it's more realistic because someone shouldn't have to use 3 move actions and then have to wait a standard/move action before making a full attack.

I often wondered how a fighter can get 8 attacks in a full-round action which is six seconds but only 1 attack as a standard action which is a a little more time it takes to stand up, or move 30 feet which takes about 2-3 seconds so it would seem that this fighter gets 8 attacks in six seconds but only one attack in 3-4 seconds meaning in 2-3 seconds he is making 7 attacks when it takes 3-4 seconds to make only one.
Yes, like I mentioned this is fairly unrefined, and untested, so it will require work. I figured the difference between having better attacks is being able recover better, so as to attack again. You enter a minifrenzy to attack that quickly. Therefore in order to make such quick attacks, you commit yourself to the full 6 seconds of attack. You can take a second, according to my system, to break out of the minifrenzy if something happens, like as if they move away.
Second by second for multiple attacks

S 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3
2 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3
3 1 0 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 2 2 2 3 2 3
4 0 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 2 2 2 3 2 3 3
5 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3
6 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2
No fractions, just a chart solution XD

My opinion: KISS it a bit
Main limitation is that you're trying to do it on a per-second basis, which only gives you 6 seconds, and ends up with fractions.
Suggestion: Do a round in 100 parts, rather than 6. This helps when dividing up the round to prevent such silliness as the "4 spells every 2.5 rounds".
From there, you could technically turn it into a freeform system where faster characters get turns more often, though the backtground mechanics start getting mean there.
I'm not familair with the term KISS.
Yes I'm trying to turn it into second by second system, but I'm trying to avoid most of the fractions. I'd like to treat each second as it's own round, which is still otherwise ruled by intitiative.
That's why I'm trying to minimize them and using the attack table to explain how a full attack would work for high number of attack. I was only using 2.5 rounds to explain 15 seconds more easily.

what do people think about the high initiative/dex characters getting a free round or two or even three if they get lucky.
If I didn't explain this enough, it works like this
Say this is everyones net intiative
28 rogue
18 monk
17 fighter
16 Villain
16 Fighter
I said, each intitiative point meant a second.
That means the rogue gets 10 seconds of doing whatever the hell he wants.
He gets 2 complete rounds worth of time before the villain can move.
I prefer this over actually making people's actions faster. I think initiative is a great way to judge speed.
nonsi
02-04-08, 08:20 AM Who gets 4 move actions during a full round? You can get two normally.
Run/sprint feat lets you move 50% faster in a line

From PHB I:
=========
Run [General]
Benefit
When running, you move five times your normal speed (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or four times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load). If you make a jump after a running start (see the Jump skill description), you gain a +4 bonus on your Jump check. While running, you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Normal
You move four times your speed while running (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or three times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load), and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.

I'm not familair with the term KISS.

KISS = Keep It Simle (and) Stupid
meaning, sometimes it's better to compromise realism a bit for a better gameflow.
White_Whale
02-04-08, 09:57 AM This is a system I was toying with for a campaign that never happened.
Bad, bad, bad idea!
Do not use if you hope to keep your players!
loganic1
02-05-08, 12:58 AM Running will do exactly as it says, It will increase speed by 5 times . . . but you will still have to dedicate 6 seconds to doing so. I plan on not changing things fundamentally.

Actually one of my players suggested it and I thought it through. I'd like
to play test it some time.

I'm trying to keep it simple, but I have trouble with stupid.

In essence, I've tried to make combat a more continue instead of breaking it up into set rounds, but basically it's not too dissimilar either.
You count each second as turn, except not everyone moves every turn and many turns where no one goes, are basically skipped.
During any given turn, people move based on their initiative, and then based on the delay after that, figure out when they move next.

What does that mean tactically?
Standard action attacks, unless coupled with a maneuver or something similar are pointless. It will be quicker to initiate a full round attack and then spend a second exiting.

Timing full attacks may be more important. I haven't decided if I should make the full round attacks, still even but back heavy, or make it progressively back heavy, but honestly I don't know whether that balances with the faster casting.

I was more curious if anyone sees any conflict if it's timed? I like the concept quite a bit and don't plan to change it from the second by second, but I need help figuring out any paradoxes or ways to streamline it. (dividing a round into a hundreds parts only makes it more so)
nonsi
02-05-08, 03:11 AM >> In essence, I've tried to make combat a more continue instead of breaking
>> it up into set rounds, but basically it's not too dissimilar either.

You do that by rolling initiative ONLY ONCE and then doing things in a cycle.
With the possibility to hold/delay action and with swift/immediate actions things become quite realistic. Sometimes things work and sometimes they don't. This represents how much a character has managed to accomplish during his combat turn - and you don't even count rounds.
Add my approach regarding multiple attacks & movement and my redefinition of certain actions and it becomes as reallistic as it can get - without breaking things down to seconds.
loganic1
02-05-08, 09:01 AM Hmm, I like your idea. Your system precludes that a character gets faster or having done it so much, can compress his actions.

It's great, it adds versatility, it allows your to interchange move/stand acts with attacks, but it's not what I'm aiming for.

I'm going to try play test it sometime next week, to see if I can't work out kinks.

I definitely like your system and will keep it mind, but I'd like to see how far I can get in my approach.
nonsi
02-05-08, 09:39 AM Hmm, I like your idea. Your system precludes that a character gets faster or having done it so much, can compress his actions.

It's great, it adds versatility, it allows your to interchange move/stand acts with attacks, but it's not what I'm aiming for.

I'm going to try play test it sometime next week, to see if I can't work out kinks.

I definitely like your system and will keep it mind, but I'd like to see how far I can get in my approach.

Whatever you choose, good luck.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
loganic1 02-04-08, 03:35 AM	This is a system I was toying with for a campaign that never happened. Initiative is still taken. Rather though, every point represents an extra second of time you have. Full Round action - 6 seconds Move Action - 2.75 seconds Standard action - 3.25 seconds free action, 5 foot step - 0 seconds, but same rules apply as to how often every turn they can be done, (Fractions are rounded unless otherwise combined) A full round attack is judged from attack to attack. If with haste or whatever, a warrior gets 3 attacks for that round, he can take the full round action . The attack is executed at the beginning of every 2 seconds of that full round and the rest of the time is consider recovery. That doesn't mean he can make a two second attack every time he feels like it, but only when he dedicates the next 6 seconds to standing firm. If for some reason, like that the villain has taken a 5 foot step out his reach middle of his attack. Say 4 seconds into his attack, the villain moves back 5 feet and starts casting something. He's gotten 2 attacks so far. One at second 1 of his round and one at second 3. He recovers after second 4 and instead of attacking again, takes a second to stop his full round attack, takes a 5 foot step with the villain and starts attacking again. Breakdown for the fighter 1 Initiates full round attack, first attack 2 Recovers 3 Intiates second attack 4 Recovers, Villain moves away 5 Stops full round attack 6 Takes 5 foot step and initiates full round attack again, First attack This changes the feel of combat, since turns overlap. People who move during the same second go based on initiative. This strengthens castors, since they can cast multiple standard action spells slightly more quickly if they choose not to use move actions A castor who casts only standards, has the following cast time 3.75 7.5 11.25 15 that means he can cast 4 spells in 2 and half rounds, if he remains a sitting duck. I haven't decided how the rounding should work. If that's too powerful, I can assume that only standard and move actions can take advantage of the fractions, so a castor essentially takes 4 seconds to cast 4 8 12 16 That means they dont gain a second. Anyways, those are my ideas. They still need heavy refining so any input would be appreciated. Things like Time stop and belt of battle should just compress what happens in a 2-5 turns to 6 turns
Xaer 02-04-08, 04:28 AM	My opinion: KISS it a bit Main limitation is that you're trying to do it on a per-second basis, which only gives you 6 seconds, and ends up with fractions. Suggestion: Do a round in 100 parts, rather than 6. This helps when dividing up the round to prevent such silliness as the "4 spells every 2.5 rounds". From there, you could technically turn it into a freeform system where faster characters get turns more often, though the backtground mechanics start getting mean there.
Zog_Jakome 02-04-08, 04:29 AM	that is a cool idea though it takes a lot of work to get it working correctly but it would seem it slows things down a lot in real time. I often wondered how a fighter can get 8 attacks in a full-round action which is six seconds but only 1 attack as a standard action which is a a little more time it takes to stand up, or move 30 feet which takes about 2-3 seconds so it would seem that this fighter gets 8 attacks in six seconds but only one attack in 3-4 seconds meaning in 2-3 seconds he is making 7 attacks when it takes 3-4 seconds to make only one.:rant:
nonsi 02-04-08, 04:42 AM	Something doesn't add up with your approach. If a move action takes 2.75 seconds, how in the world can someone spend a full round action running to make 4 move actions ? Also, you do understand your approach would bring the game down to a crawl on all combat situation, don't you ? If you want a combat turn to allow more and a greater variety of things to happen, click my sig, go to the Revised Rules spoiler, search for "Multiple Attacks and Movement" and see if you like it.
loganic1 02-04-08, 05:55 AM	Something doesn't add up with your approach. If a move action takes 2.75 seconds, how in the world can someone spend a full round action running to make 4 move actions ? Who gets 4 move actions during a full round? You can get two normally. Run/sprint feat lets you move 50% faster in a line Also, you do understand your approach would bring the game down to a crawl on all combat situation, don't you ? Yes it would slow the game down some, but actually not too badly. It just takes a bit more dynamic tracking than the current initiative system. If you want a combat turn to allow more and a greater variety of things to happen, click my sig, go to the Revised Rules spoiler, search for "Multiple Attacks and Movement" and see if you like it. I will look into it. I just suppose it's more realistic because someone shouldn't have to use 3 move actions and then have to wait a standard/move action before making a full attack. I often wondered how a fighter can get 8 attacks in a full-round action which is six seconds but only 1 attack as a standard action which is a a little more time it takes to stand up, or move 30 feet which takes about 2-3 seconds so it would seem that this fighter gets 8 attacks in six seconds but only one attack in 3-4 seconds meaning in 2-3 seconds he is making 7 attacks when it takes 3-4 seconds to make only one. Yes, like I mentioned this is fairly unrefined, and untested, so it will require work. I figured the difference between having better attacks is being able recover better, so as to attack again. You enter a minifrenzy to attack that quickly. Therefore in order to make such quick attacks, you commit yourself to the full 6 seconds of attack. You can take a second, according to my system, to break out of the minifrenzy if something happens, like as if they move away. Second by second for multiple attacks S 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 2 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 1 0 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 2 2 2 3 2 3 4 0 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 2 2 2 3 2 3 3 5 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 6 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 No fractions, just a chart solution XD My opinion: KISS it a bit Main limitation is that you're trying to do it on a per-second basis, which only gives you 6 seconds, and ends up with fractions. Suggestion: Do a round in 100 parts, rather than 6. This helps when dividing up the round to prevent such silliness as the "4 spells every 2.5 rounds". From there, you could technically turn it into a freeform system where faster characters get turns more often, though the backtground mechanics start getting mean there. I'm not familair with the term KISS. Yes I'm trying to turn it into second by second system, but I'm trying to avoid most of the fractions. I'd like to treat each second as it's own round, which is still otherwise ruled by intitiative. That's why I'm trying to minimize them and using the attack table to explain how a full attack would work for high number of attack. I was only using 2.5 rounds to explain 15 seconds more easily. what do people think about the high initiative/dex characters getting a free round or two or even three if they get lucky. If I didn't explain this enough, it works like this Say this is everyones net intiative 28 rogue 18 monk 17 fighter 16 Villain 16 Fighter I said, each intitiative point meant a second. That means the rogue gets 10 seconds of doing whatever the hell he wants. He gets 2 complete rounds worth of time before the villain can move. I prefer this over actually making people's actions faster. I think initiative is a great way to judge speed.
nonsi 02-04-08, 08:20 AM	Who gets 4 move actions during a full round? You can get two normally. Run/sprint feat lets you move 50% faster in a line From PHB I: ========= Run [General] Benefit When running, you move five times your normal speed (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or four times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load). If you make a jump after a running start (see the Jump skill description), you gain a +4 bonus on your Jump check. While running, you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC. Normal You move four times your speed while running (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or three times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load), and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC. I'm not familair with the term KISS. KISS = Keep It Simle (and) Stupid meaning, sometimes it's better to compromise realism a bit for a better gameflow.
White_Whale 02-04-08, 09:57 AM	This is a system I was toying with for a campaign that never happened. Bad, bad, bad idea! Do not use if you hope to keep your players!
loganic1 02-05-08, 12:58 AM	Running will do exactly as it says, It will increase speed by 5 times . . . but you will still have to dedicate 6 seconds to doing so. I plan on not changing things fundamentally. Actually one of my players suggested it and I thought it through. I'd like to play test it some time. I'm trying to keep it simple, but I have trouble with stupid. In essence, I've tried to make combat a more continue instead of breaking it up into set rounds, but basically it's not too dissimilar either. You count each second as turn, except not everyone moves every turn and many turns where no one goes, are basically skipped. During any given turn, people move based on their initiative, and then based on the delay after that, figure out when they move next. What does that mean tactically? Standard action attacks, unless coupled with a maneuver or something similar are pointless. It will be quicker to initiate a full round attack and then spend a second exiting. Timing full attacks may be more important. I haven't decided if I should make the full round attacks, still even but back heavy, or make it progressively back heavy, but honestly I don't know whether that balances with the faster casting. I was more curious if anyone sees any conflict if it's timed? I like the concept quite a bit and don't plan to change it from the second by second, but I need help figuring out any paradoxes or ways to streamline it. (dividing a round into a hundreds parts only makes it more so)
nonsi 02-05-08, 03:11 AM	>> In essence, I've tried to make combat a more continue instead of breaking >> it up into set rounds, but basically it's not too dissimilar either. You do that by rolling initiative ONLY ONCE and then doing things in a cycle. With the possibility to hold/delay action and with swift/immediate actions things become quite realistic. Sometimes things work and sometimes they don't. This represents how much a character has managed to accomplish during his combat turn - and you don't even count rounds. Add my approach regarding multiple attacks & movement and my redefinition of certain actions and it becomes as reallistic as it can get - without breaking things down to seconds.
loganic1 02-05-08, 09:01 AM	Hmm, I like your idea. Your system precludes that a character gets faster or having done it so much, can compress his actions. It's great, it adds versatility, it allows your to interchange move/stand acts with attacks, but it's not what I'm aiming for. I'm going to try play test it sometime next week, to see if I can't work out kinks. I definitely like your system and will keep it mind, but I'd like to see how far I can get in my approach.
nonsi 02-05-08, 09:39 AM	Hmm, I like your idea. Your system precludes that a character gets faster or having done it so much, can compress his actions. It's great, it adds versatility, it allows your to interchange move/stand acts with attacks, but it's not what I'm aiming for. I'm going to try play test it sometime next week, to see if I can't work out kinks. I definitely like your system and will keep it mind, but I'd like to see how far I can get in my approach. Whatever you choose, good luck.