Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KnH 05-18-07, 12:43 PM	I really like the skill system in Iron Heroes. For those who haven't seen it, all skills are "class" skills. So, they have a max rank of HD + 3, and each rank costs one skill point. The skillmonkey class has an increased max skill rank of HD + 5. Also, each class has access to a number of skill groups. Each one covers a group of skills, and for every skill point you put in the skill group, all the skills in the group are increased by 1. This means its easier for classes to be good at skills related to them. I really like the system, but I don't think it could be ported directly into D&D. For one thing, the Knowledge skills are all put into one skill, which can apply to a number of different knowledges. I don't like this, and feel that the knowledges should be seperated out more. The skill system does similar with Craft, Profession and Perform. So, I'd like to have the skill groups, but without weakening the classes which do focus on skills, keeping the knowledges more seperate, and fiddling with the rules as little as possible. As such, these rules have to be an add on rather than a replacement. So, I've come up with this, which is a starting guesstimate at what is needed: -------------------------------------------------------- D&D Skill Groups Everyone has access to the skill groups, but they are treated as "cross-class" skills. So, for every two skill points used on them, you can increase the ranks in all of the skills in the group by one. This can be changed by the feat Able Learner (Races of Destiny) to be one skill point per rank. You can only increase these up to your cross class ranks: (HD + 3) / 2. These ranks are separate to any you have in the individual skill. So, to increase a class skill above the skill group ranks, you have to put enough skill points in the skill to raise that skill to the required level. The skill groups are: Knowledge (People): Knowledge (Local), (Nobility and Royalty), (History), (Religion) Knowledge (Environments): Knowledges (Dungeoneering), (Geography), (Nature), (Planes) Knowledge (Magic): Knowledges (Arcana), (Religion), (Planes) and Spellcraft Agility: Balance, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand and Tumble Athletics: Climb, Jump, Ride and Swim. Mysticism: Concentration, Decipher Script, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device. Perception: Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot. Robbery: Disable Device, Forgery, Open Lock, and Sleight of Hand. Social: Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate. Stealth: Hide, Move Silently and Sleight of Hand. Theatrics: Bluff, Disguise, Perform, and Sleight of Hand. Wilderness Lore: Handle Animal, Ride, Survival and Use Rope. Mercantile: Appraise, Bluff, Sense Motive and Knowledge (Local). ---------------------------------------------------------- Some skills [ Craft, Heal, Knowledge(architecture and engineering), Profession, Speak Language ] are not included. This is either because they don't fit, or they're so focused that you need to treat it individually. If you have Iron Heroes, then you can see that several of the skill groups are the same. This rule has the effect of allowing people to become competent in a couple of areas, without needing to specialise in them. It helps people with fewer skill points, but still allows those with good skills to excel in various areas. For example, a Fighter 3 with 2 skill points per level can max out Perception and Social, having 3 ranks (and a probable modifier of +3 to each) in Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate. They would be a competent town guard, able to notice the average person trying to hide, and be able to sort out most social situations, deflating arguments and breaking up brawls. However, they are very unlikely to beat... say, McGuffin McCoy the level 3 Halfling Rogue, with maxed out Hide (about +14) and Move Silently (about +12), and probably will be beaten in an argument with someone who has actually worked at the skills. What do you think of this? I beat it with the nerf hammer until its useful, but won't overshadow the skillmonkeys of the group. Does I need to carry on nerf hammering it into submission, or do I need to give it a hand to get up off the floor from the beating? If I was playing a character with only one or two skill points per level, I would definitely rather have some competency in several skills than have one good skill, and as such be willing to use this. And I love the feat Able Learner. If I was playing a Rogue, then I'd probably ignore most of these, possibly putting a few ranks into one or two of the groups. But thats just me. I'd like your opinions on this as to whether its a good idea, whether you as a player would be willing to put skill points into these, and possibly more importantly, whether they are useful but not the obvious option all the time.
Arcade 05-18-07, 02:30 PM	I think there's a problem with your fighter example. If he only gets 2 skill points per level, shouldn't he only be able to max out 1 of the skill groups since they are considered cross class? Another question, do I understand the statement that if I have 5 ranks in agility, these don't add to any ranks I have in balance? In other words, if I want my balance to be better, do I need to spend 1 point or 6 points in balance? I like this idea, though I'm going to have to use my own nerf hammer to see if it's what I want. I think it's a great alternative to consolidated skills and gives those low skill point classes something to look at.
KnH 05-18-07, 03:12 PM	I don't think so. Cross class, each skill point counts as 0.5 ranks. First level, he puts 4 into Perception, for a total rank of 2. At each level after, he puts another rank into it. 2nd level, it goes to 2.5 . 3rd level, it goes to 3 . He still has another 6 points that he put in Social. Yeah, that seems to work. The other question- yeah, you've got it right. If he had maxed out Athletics, then he would have 3 ranks in Climb, Jump, Ride and Swim. However, if he wanted to be really good at Ride, then he'd have to put the rest of his points in Ride. So, Fighter 3: Skill points used: Athletics: 6 points. Ride: 6 points. Total skill modifiers: Climb - 3 ranks Jump - 3 ranks Ride - 6 ranks Swim - 3 ranks This means that you don't get a huge amount of benefit from a group if you want one or more skills from it, but if your character has some basic knowledge of various topics or a basic aptitude for various things then its possible to have that without screwing yourself over totally. Like this, theres no reason to put points into a cross class skill unless its Heal, Speak Language or Perform.
Arcade 05-18-07, 03:17 PM	My bad on the example- you're right, I was just confusing myself. Definitely not overpowered, so I think it's fine to use. In fact, given how most skills are only great if you max them out, these may not get that much play so it really shouldn't cause any issues.
KnH 05-18-07, 04:02 PM	Yeah, thats what I was talking about when saying I beat it with a nerf hammer. It started off with the Iron Heroes- the skill group has the same max ranks as class skills, costs the same, and benefits several. - obviously overpowered. This could be changed so that each class gets access to a selection of them. However, this would require working out which groups any individual class has access to, which is infeasible. It was then reduced to being the same max ranks as cross class ranks, but using one skill point per rank. All classes would be able to access them. This is probably the sort of thing I'd like, except the difficulty with the cross class max being halves. I then thought that it would be simply easier to do the maths - always shoving points in a skill group - if it had the same cost as cross class ranks. This would mean that your number of skills per level is the number of skills or skill groups which can be maxed out. This is a lot weaker, possibly too weak, but easier on the brain. This is the system above. So, do you think it would be better as 1 skill point per rank, or is it fine as it is?