Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Walnut 09-22-04, 02:33 PM	Our group does fairly well at the role part of playing. Sense motive has become an underused skill--we don't need it if we question people properly, and our DM has barred use of it when our characters don't have a real reason to use it(that is, when he's spent a couple of hours talking as various NPC's and set up a complete scenario--the concept that one die roll can crumble the whole facade is repugnant to him, and I understand that). We've started a test using it a different way instead; as a sort of "perception" skill. Basically, the DM keeps our SM skill numbers behind his screen, and gives us a roll when entering an area or situation where something may be hidden, dangerous, or just slightly off. He'll drop a hint to that effect, how strong depends on how well we did. Using that info we can then try to spot, search, or react with whatever else we want to do. Or, we may ignore it. So far, this has helped cut down wasted game time. Our group has had some setbacks and is poor so we had been scouring areas, searching every square. Also, we were wasting a lot of time searching for traps where there were none so we had pretty much stopped--and fallen into a few bad ones. It gives us a bit more direction on areas that are important to search, and more warning about where traps might be. If we don't have a good SM score, we don't get these hints. He usually sets the DC in the neighbourhood of 5 lower than the search or spot DC, with very low rolls resulting in false positives. It lets him brush off our requests for searches when unnecessary, saying that we quickly determine that there is nothing of importance. Anyways, what do people think of this?
PaladinKD 09-22-04, 03:20 PM	I'm a little confused. Do you use Sense Motive checks when searching? :confused: You keep using trap references. Using the secret Sense Motive at the beginning of a social encounter is a good idea I think. As a DM, I have always hated the idea of one-roll solutions too.
Goken100 09-22-04, 03:23 PM	It sounds to me like there is a demand for a skill like the one that your DM uses. However, it doesn't make sense to me that a skill based on interaction with other people (and has a related ability to indicate this) is usable to get the vibes from a room. WotC explains that Sense Motive is used to overcome a bluff and to get a sense of GM character's trustworthiness. Even in a heavy role playing campaign, the GM can make a secret check of this when first interacting with a character to let you know what you first instinct tells you. This won't necessarily spill any beans, but it rewards you for having "a good sense for people". The other use, to overcome bluffs, is useful if anyone's trying to distract the players or fit into a crowd. What I would suggest is to create a new skill, perhaps called Danger Sense or something to that extent. It would be Wisdom based and would be more likely to give characters a heads up when they need to start being careful.
Walnut 09-22-04, 03:54 PM	Sense motive vs. bluff: you're taking cues from behaviour to form a 'feeling' about whether or not something is going on. Essentially, we just sort of extended that to any physical situation--the check is a general perception check. For example: You may notice that the person looks down every time they say something about a particular topic. You may notice that she glances over your shoulder at the guy across the bar when you ask about the theft last night. You may notice that the people in that alleyway are a bit too tense to be just bums lying there. You may notice that the floor is slightly bowed ahead. You may notice that the coloring of the wall changes unusually on that side. You may notice that a particular picture is slightly crooked in a room full of straight ones, or a book is pushed a bit farther in. It's not replacing search or spot checks. It's just an indicator of when to use them instead of rolling the dice non-stop. We're using an existing skill to keep it useful for those who take ranks in it to qualify for prestige classes or for character reasons. Sense motive is about perceptiveness, but we've found it underused in a RP-heavy campaign. We make use of Diplomacy, Gather Information, and even use Bluff. What we found lacking is a means to streamline the boring details of the dungeon crawling parts--finding things. Especially in the prewritten adventures we use as filler between main story segments, the descriptions are usually too shallow to give a real feel for what the true dangers and rewards might be.
Templar_Prime 09-22-04, 09:45 PM	Sounds like a couple those things are spot checks or search checks (mostly spot). Sense Motive is best summed up by players in one of my group as "Detect BS". (can't type what we really say, forum rules and all)
Kainy 09-23-04, 12:15 AM	If you're going to remove social skills because you're heavy into RP, you may as well nix all the mental attributes, because they're part of the RP, too, right? :rolleyes: "Well, you seem like you're a pretty smart character, so you get a bonus first through third level spell every day, mister wizard." Stats and skills are there for a reason, to differentiate the player from the character. I've played characters FAR wiser and smarter than myself. I had to rely on their stats, not my own wisdom or intelligence because, well, I simply don't have a 20+ score in either. Really, I promise.
Walnut 09-23-04, 11:47 AM	If you're going to remove social skills Praytell where did you read that because I could have sworn I wrote this We make use of Diplomacy, Gather Information, and even use Bluff And I might add we still use sense motive in its traditional role when opposing bluff or disguise. because you're heavy into RP, you may as well nix all the mental attributes, because they're part of the RP, too, right? :rolleyes: Well now, there's a leap. We're changing one mechanic because it has stepped on the toes of good storyline development, not hybridizing a LARP system or anything. Stats and skills are there for a reason Yes, they're the basis for what makes it a game instead of simply a group story. to differentiate the player from the character No, that would be roleplaying instead of MEplaying. It's a part of good storyline development, and actually engages people in the characters instead of simply optimizing a set of numbers. not my own wisdom or intelligence because, well, I simply don't have a 20+ score in either. Really, I promise. You don't say. ;) What I was fishing for here were perhaps more constructive thoughts on the balance or ramifications of this idea. We're basing our move on the 'hunch' mechanic of Sense Motive and treating it as a passive perception measure. At the same time we are strictly using the RAW definition of Spot; namely that it is an active skill.
BlastedKid 09-23-04, 12:38 PM	You may notice that the floor is slightly bowed ahead. You may notice that the coloring of the wall changes unusually on that side. You may notice that a particular picture is slightly crooked in a room full of straight ones, or a book is pushed a bit farther in. It's not replacing search or spot checks. It's just an indicator of when to use them instead of rolling the dice non-stop. Simply put, Sense Motive is a social interaction skill. Your PC may be adept at knowing people, but terrible at knowing if a room is likely to be dangerous. A group I used to play with used a Perception check to notice when something wasn't quite right. It was based on Wisdom. And you could just use a Wisdom check. There are plenty of instances when an ability modifier can be used alone, not in conjunction with skill. Try that.
Shard of Suzail 09-23-04, 01:35 PM	I love sense motive. I played a diplomat character in a stargate d20 group and had a massive sense motive skill with a very good critical threat range. I seldom rolled it, but at the end of the session my GM would come up to me and tell me what the *players* were up to (since they never made efforts to bluff and i spent a lot of time with them). Likewise, i seldom rolled diplomacy checks, again another very high skill with a good critical range. I had the confidence of knowing that, if i ever needed to use it, it would probably succeed. Thus, I only used it when it really counted. The upshot was, that I was by far the most powerful character in the group and that I could, with a very small effort, get massive things done. By keeping this only to critical events, the other players underestimated me massively and that, in turn, gave me a lot more power still. Treacherous bunch they were too. I`m glad i knew what was going on. *** D and D though is a different thing entirely. I have a cleric in my campaign who has good diplomatic skills (though sense motive is cross class and i cant pick it up effectively). I have only once rolled a diplomacy check and i got, oh 35 or somesuch. Even with that the DM was reluctant to give me an effective outcome. In stargate I could unite nations and influence entire armies. In D and D it would seem that the best i can do is persuade a merchant to tell me about something he saw yesterday. Its true that in stargate I often had to make numerous rolls, over several days of negotiation or conference, for large things to happen, but it was possible. I could get entire teams of diplomats to help me out. A diplomatic character was crucial and a real power broker. *** I think it really comes down to your GM's gaming experience. There was a trend, a while back, with games like Conspiracy X, where characters were government operatives with massive and far reaching influence. Gamers started to play those games looking to become ninja and super soldiers, but eventually realised that it was powerful men in smoky rooms who held the real power in the world. One skilled man with a gun is usually a fearsome player, but when other players realised that, with their influence, they could send forth fifty trained men with guns, two attack choppers and have the police lock down an area, well, mr Rambo was eclipsed. Gm's who dislike the power of social skills also tend to limit npc allies. If you are in a game where the players can call forth a big squad of goons or an army, then social skills are probably to the fore. If the game tends to be fiddling with locks in dungeons, then social skills are minor. Even so, in D and D, its hard enough for a character to actually pick up the full raft of social skills. Like my cleric with lots of diplomacy but no real sense motive. There is some argument to say that truthfully, players are adventurers and thus should leave the social stuff to powerful npc's. Still, in the long run, if your GM doesnt value those skills, then you cant fight him. Just rely on your own and put points elsewhere. Making social skills perform other functions is not at all good. Just avoid them completely.
Goken100 09-23-04, 08:30 PM	I love sense motive. ... Making social skills perform other functions is not at all good. Just avoid them completely. Ya that's what I was trying to say. ;) There's a wealth of use for the Sense Motive skill, but if the DM doesn't want to let people find out anything social from it then its mostly a non-entity. I still think that a skill to know when to be on your toes is not an all together bad idea. What about Danger Sense? Trouble Sense?.... SPIDY SENSE! :D
Shard of Suzail 09-24-04, 08:46 PM	According to most prewritten games i have seen, adventurers get spider sense for free. The amount of "read-aloud" description entries that lnclude the phrases "You feel something is terribly wrong here" or "Something tells you that the journey ahead will not be easy" is pretty large.