Separate BAB Progressions? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Separate BAB Progressions? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Master_Vega
11-23-07, 12:22 PM This is a Modern-related house rule idea, though it likely has some importance to D&D as well (maybe not though).

When my group was playing a D20 Future campaign, my friend was very annoyed that a melee smasher character (my other friend's character) was able to shoot almost as well as I could... well, if he had personal firearms proficiency he might actually surpass me.

Now this problem has a mix of origins, part being the cybernetics the masher had, but the larger part of it was that he had a BAB much higher than mine. (My levels were scattered like so: 2 smart, 7 fast, 2 sharpshooter [StarWars class that I really wish the GM hadn't talked me into taking], and 4 soldier.)
While the majority of the classes I used had a 3/4 progression, and one had a 1/2 progression, all but one of his class levels had a full BAB.

I had two times the dexterity bonus that he had, and I still didn't have much to say for it. My bonus to ranged weapons at level 15 was +19, and only with a specific railgun. I did insane amounts of damage, but then my friend's character probably could too if he bought a similar gun (instead his strategy was to completely incapacitate the enemy with injected toxins).

It didn't bug me too much, but the friend it did annoy does have a point. My character was training all that time with his gun; he should have much higher bonuses than the other character in relation to ranged weapons.

Story out of the way, has anyone thought of rules for separate BABs for Melee and Ranged? Perhaps you pick one when you take a class, and the alternative BAB is a step down (possibly with the exception of 1/2 BAB classes, which don't really have anywhere to step up to)?

D20 Modern examples:

Strong Hero with melee focus: Full BAB for melee, 3/4 BAB for ranged.

Fast Hero with ranged focus: 3/4 BAB for ranged, 1/2 BAB for melee.

D&D examples:

Fighter with melee focus: Full BAB for melee, 3/4 BAB for ranged.

Ranger with ranged focus: Full BAB for ranged, 3/4 BAB for ranged.

I know this makes things a bit more complicated, but does it at least make sense? Thanks!
CryoSilver
11-23-07, 01:12 PM Are you seriously suggesting that physical combat classes be made WEAKER?
Master_Vega
11-23-07, 01:19 PM Are you seriously suggesting that physical combat classes be made WEAKER?

Like I said, primarily in D20Modern where magic is maybe half as awesome as in D&D (only goes up to 5th level spells)... if it's even in the campaign. It doesn't make much sense for D&D, but D20Modern doesn't have a homebrew board so I thought I'd post the idea here.

In D20 Modern, only a few classes actually have a full BAB (in the core rulebook only the Strong Hero and the Martial Artist have full BAB). I think it's at least a little logical for that.
CryoSilver
11-23-07, 01:28 PM I suppose it could work, then. But the big difference is likely to be in Proficiency. You do need proficiency (guns) to use them without the -4, yes? After that, well, guns are really, really easy to use. Point and shoot, more or less.
Tequila_Sunrise
11-23-07, 01:44 PM Ditto.

Could part of the problem be that you have 4 different classes, all with poor or average BAB? I'm assuming since you didn't mention it that your DM doesn't do fractional progressions, which would help.
Xavon
11-23-07, 05:15 PM I would suggest looking for a weapon skill system.
Balseraph
11-23-07, 07:46 PM In my d20 Modern games I simply houserule the Strong Hero class to have 3/4 BAB. It just made sense around our table that the only people with full BAB are those who have specifically trained for battle, not just because they happen to be strong. :D
Sure it means that a couple of advanced and prestige classes need to have their entry requirements relaxed a point or so, but it also means that if one wants a 1:1 attack bonus one is going to have to suck it up and go for them.
Master_Vega
11-23-07, 07:51 PM Ditto.

Could part of the problem be that you have 4 different classes, all with poor or average BAB? I'm assuming since you didn't mention it that your DM doesn't do fractional progressions, which would help.

Modern is made for multiclassing. There are no 20-level classes, only 10-level base and advanced classes, and some 5-level prestige classes.

Asside from Smart Hero, which happens to be the only poor BAB class I took, all of the classes I took either granted talents/abilities or feats to enhance my shooting.

Fast Hero and Soldier (Sharpshooter as well, I suppose) are supposed to be used for gunfighters. Now Fast Hero does gain the best defensive abilities of all base classes, but Strong Hero is the master of bashing and a great shot to boot (assuming he has Personal Firearms Proficiency).

I just think it's odd that melee-focused characters also happen to be great shots... If someone went from Strong Hero into Martial Artist (both full BAB classes), and completely ignored PFP, he'd end up with a +16 -not including his dex bonus or penalty- to his shot at level twenty.
A Fast Hero who goes into Soldier (both 3/4 BAB classes with decent focus on firearms, though Soldier is most quickly accessed through Strong Hero), and pours all of his feats into gunfighting will end up with a +16 to his shot on normal circomstances (+17 if he's got Point Blank Shot and is within range for the benefits).
The latter character will do more damage with his gun because of some class abilities, but the strong/martial artist will be able to make a fourth attack with the same gun the fast/soldier used.

I have thought of another idea, though. Perhaps classes that have 3/4 BAB can choose to focus their bonus, bumping either ranged or melee BAB up one step and taking the unchosen combat type down a step. This way, you could have a gun-focused character taking gun-focused classes that actually shoots much more accurately than a melee-focused character taking melee-focused classes can.
Jaerom Darkwind
11-23-07, 08:56 PM Wait, this "soldier" class only has 3/4 BAB? How the Hell does that make any kind of sense? Ditto sharpshooter. I think I found the source of your problems.

Fractional progressions would also help.
Master_Vega
11-24-07, 01:40 AM Wait, this "soldier" class only has 3/4 BAB? How the Hell does that make any kind of sense? Ditto sharpshooter. I think I found the source of your problems.

Fractional progressions would also help.

Soldier gains the following abilities:

Weapon Focus

Weapon Specialization

Tactical aid (charisma, or maybe it was Knowledge (tactics) check to grant allies bonuses)

Improved Critical (+1 to critical threat range on your focused weapon)

Improved Weapon Specialization

Auto Crit (if you threaten a critical, you automatically conferm.)

Though I agree with you that they should have full BAB, I'm not one of the guys who wrote D20Modern, so... :P

Note: D20 Future's classes, which aren't balanced to Modern, give a Charismatic class called Field Officer a full BAB... It renders the Soldier's Tactical Aid ability nearly useless (though TA lasts several rounds where the Field Officer's abilities last only one), too... but if you're not charismatic the class is wasted on you. :P

Maybe I should suggest to the GM that Soldier's BAB get upped to full instead of 3/4...

Edit: and by fractional progressions you mean...?
JasonOrlandoHawk
11-24-07, 02:36 AM Fractional BAB is an alternate rule set described in the book "Unearthed Arcana." I don't think it is considered "Open" content, so I don't know if I'm allowed to actually explain it here. In your case, it may be a solid option. Check it out at your local bookstore.

There is a "Fractional Save" system that goes along with it.

Personally, I really like Fractional BAB, but I don't like Fractional Saves. I haven't implemented them in my games b/c I'm trying to figure out what to do with the Fractional Save system. (For those in the know, I object to Fractional Saves and the +2 bonus to good saves at 1st level additional classes.)
kuonji
11-24-07, 02:37 AM Fractional progression:

1/2 BAB class gives +1/2 point of BAB/level
3/4 BAB class gives +3/4 point of BAB/level
Full BAB class gives +1 point of BAB/level

So for example, a rogue 1/cleric 1 would normally have a BAB of +0, but with the fractional system, would gain +3/4 for rogue and +3/4 for cleric for a total of +1.5 or +1 for purposes of attacks. Adding another level of either class would add another +3/4 to BAB and bring the total to +2.25 or +2.
Jaerom Darkwind
11-24-07, 02:44 AM Doesn't matter. Fighting classes get full BAB, and the class features should be balanced around that, not the other way around.

Fractional progressions are a variant in UA. Every progression is based on a formula, with the fractions rounded down. BAB is 1/1 level, 3/4 levels, and 1/2 levels. Saves are trickier: 2 + 1/2 levels, 3/5 + 2/5 levels, and 1/3 levels. Stick the fractions back in and you get two benefits:

1) all like progressions suddenly stack (so if you're a cleric 2/rogue 2, you end up with a BAB of 3/2 + 3/2 = 3, rather than +2)

2) unlike progressions will still sometimes produce fractions that add up to a while other point (a cleric 1/wizard 1 has a BAB of 1/2 + 3/4 = 1 1/4 or +1, rather than +0)
Master_Vega
11-24-07, 03:18 PM Thanks everyone! I'll talk to the GM about all of these options and see what he thinks... It's kinda in the past now, so it's not a very big deal now since the campaign ended a few weeks ago, but it'll certainly help in later games.
Tequila_Sunrise
11-24-07, 03:41 PM Master Vega: Maybe you should simply take this as a lesson. If you're a player and your DM doesn't like making house rules, use the existing rules to your advantage. I hate to endorse the kind of character building that creates really wonky class mixes that have no rp rationale, but if the d20 Modern classes are so poorly thought out--by all means, the next time you make a sniper character start with the strong hero base class and focus on PrCs with full BAB.

Personally, I really like Fractional BAB, but I don't like Fractional Saves. I haven't implemented them in my games b/c I'm trying to figure out what to do with the Fractional Save system. (For those in the know, I object to Fractional Saves and the +2 bonus to good saves at 1st level additional classes.)

I have to ask: why do you like fractional BAB but not fractional saves? My own house rule is to use fractional BAB and saves, but a character can only have that +2 good save bonus once per save type. So no matter how many classes you have, your saves are where they should be for your level.
Master_Vega
11-25-07, 11:59 AM Master Vega: Maybe you should simply take this as a lesson. If you're a player and your DM doesn't like making house rules, use the existing rules to your advantage. I hate to endorse the kind of character building that creates really wonky class mixes that have no rp rationale, but if the d20 Modern classes are so poorly thought out--by all means, the next time you make a sniper character start with the strong hero base class and focus on PrCs with full BAB.

In Modern, Full BAB is rare (except in the Future supplement, where the authors threw Modern balance out the window). The only two classes in the core book that even have full BAB are the Strong Hero and Martial Artist. Online supplements have a few full BAB prestige classes (like Sniper, which I would have taken had I found it less than three quarters through the campaign.)

There is, of course, a lot to balance the lack of BAB for the other base classes. All classes in D20 Modern get a class bonus to defense (AC); Fast Hero gains the best at a total of +8 by level ten. Strong obviously gains less of a bonus. Strong also gains the smallest number of skillpoints at 4, while Smart gains the most at 9. Fast is in the middle at 7.

Part of what killed me was that, though I've been in several campaigns before, this was my first campaign/character (we took a break to play some other games). I did not think to access the Future classes, one of which my friend was using, and so my character was weaker than his.

I still think Soldier should have full BAB... so that'll be the first thing I ask him about. He's not bad about houserules so long as their well-explained.

Thanks again!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Master_Vega 11-23-07, 12:22 PM	This is a Modern-related house rule idea, though it likely has some importance to D&D as well (maybe not though). When my group was playing a D20 Future campaign, my friend was very annoyed that a melee smasher character (my other friend's character) was able to shoot almost as well as I could... well, if he had personal firearms proficiency he might actually surpass me. Now this problem has a mix of origins, part being the cybernetics the masher had, but the larger part of it was that he had a BAB much higher than mine. (My levels were scattered like so: 2 smart, 7 fast, 2 sharpshooter [StarWars class that I really wish the GM hadn't talked me into taking], and 4 soldier.) While the majority of the classes I used had a 3/4 progression, and one had a 1/2 progression, all but one of his class levels had a full BAB. I had two times the dexterity bonus that he had, and I still didn't have much to say for it. My bonus to ranged weapons at level 15 was +19, and only with a specific railgun. I did insane amounts of damage, but then my friend's character probably could too if he bought a similar gun (instead his strategy was to completely incapacitate the enemy with injected toxins). It didn't bug me too much, but the friend it did annoy does have a point. My character was training all that time with his gun; he should have much higher bonuses than the other character in relation to ranged weapons. Story out of the way, has anyone thought of rules for separate BABs for Melee and Ranged? Perhaps you pick one when you take a class, and the alternative BAB is a step down (possibly with the exception of 1/2 BAB classes, which don't really have anywhere to step up to)? D20 Modern examples: Strong Hero with melee focus: Full BAB for melee, 3/4 BAB for ranged. Fast Hero with ranged focus: 3/4 BAB for ranged, 1/2 BAB for melee. D&D examples: Fighter with melee focus: Full BAB for melee, 3/4 BAB for ranged. Ranger with ranged focus: Full BAB for ranged, 3/4 BAB for ranged. I know this makes things a bit more complicated, but does it at least make sense? Thanks!
CryoSilver 11-23-07, 01:12 PM	Are you seriously suggesting that physical combat classes be made WEAKER?
Master_Vega 11-23-07, 01:19 PM	Are you seriously suggesting that physical combat classes be made WEAKER? Like I said, primarily in D20Modern where magic is maybe half as awesome as in D&D (only goes up to 5th level spells)... if it's even in the campaign. It doesn't make much sense for D&D, but D20Modern doesn't have a homebrew board so I thought I'd post the idea here. In D20 Modern, only a few classes actually have a full BAB (in the core rulebook only the Strong Hero and the Martial Artist have full BAB). I think it's at least a little logical for that.
CryoSilver 11-23-07, 01:28 PM	I suppose it could work, then. But the big difference is likely to be in Proficiency. You do need proficiency (guns) to use them without the -4, yes? After that, well, guns are really, really easy to use. Point and shoot, more or less.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-23-07, 01:44 PM	Ditto. Could part of the problem be that you have 4 different classes, all with poor or average BAB? I'm assuming since you didn't mention it that your DM doesn't do fractional progressions, which would help.
Xavon 11-23-07, 05:15 PM	I would suggest looking for a weapon skill system.
Balseraph 11-23-07, 07:46 PM	In my d20 Modern games I simply houserule the Strong Hero class to have 3/4 BAB. It just made sense around our table that the only people with full BAB are those who have specifically trained for battle, not just because they happen to be strong. :D Sure it means that a couple of advanced and prestige classes need to have their entry requirements relaxed a point or so, but it also means that if one wants a 1:1 attack bonus one is going to have to suck it up and go for them.
Master_Vega 11-23-07, 07:51 PM	Ditto. Could part of the problem be that you have 4 different classes, all with poor or average BAB? I'm assuming since you didn't mention it that your DM doesn't do fractional progressions, which would help. Modern is made for multiclassing. There are no 20-level classes, only 10-level base and advanced classes, and some 5-level prestige classes. Asside from Smart Hero, which happens to be the only poor BAB class I took, all of the classes I took either granted talents/abilities or feats to enhance my shooting. Fast Hero and Soldier (Sharpshooter as well, I suppose) are supposed to be used for gunfighters. Now Fast Hero does gain the best defensive abilities of all base classes, but Strong Hero is the master of bashing and a great shot to boot (assuming he has Personal Firearms Proficiency). I just think it's odd that melee-focused characters also happen to be great shots... If someone went from Strong Hero into Martial Artist (both full BAB classes), and completely ignored PFP, he'd end up with a +16 -not including his dex bonus or penalty- to his shot at level twenty. A Fast Hero who goes into Soldier (both 3/4 BAB classes with decent focus on firearms, though Soldier is most quickly accessed through Strong Hero), and pours all of his feats into gunfighting will end up with a +16 to his shot on normal circomstances (+17 if he's got Point Blank Shot and is within range for the benefits). The latter character will do more damage with his gun because of some class abilities, but the strong/martial artist will be able to make a fourth attack with the same gun the fast/soldier used. I have thought of another idea, though. Perhaps classes that have 3/4 BAB can choose to focus their bonus, bumping either ranged or melee BAB up one step and taking the unchosen combat type down a step. This way, you could have a gun-focused character taking gun-focused classes that actually shoots much more accurately than a melee-focused character taking melee-focused classes can.
Jaerom Darkwind 11-23-07, 08:56 PM	Wait, this "soldier" class only has 3/4 BAB? How the Hell does that make any kind of sense? Ditto sharpshooter. I think I found the source of your problems. Fractional progressions would also help.
Master_Vega 11-24-07, 01:40 AM	Wait, this "soldier" class only has 3/4 BAB? How the Hell does that make any kind of sense? Ditto sharpshooter. I think I found the source of your problems. Fractional progressions would also help. Soldier gains the following abilities: Weapon Focus Weapon Specialization Tactical aid (charisma, or maybe it was Knowledge (tactics) check to grant allies bonuses) Improved Critical (+1 to critical threat range on your focused weapon) Improved Weapon Specialization Auto Crit (if you threaten a critical, you automatically conferm.) Though I agree with you that they should have full BAB, I'm not one of the guys who wrote D20Modern, so... :P Note: D20 Future's classes, which aren't balanced to Modern, give a Charismatic class called Field Officer a full BAB... It renders the Soldier's Tactical Aid ability nearly useless (though TA lasts several rounds where the Field Officer's abilities last only one), too... but if you're not charismatic the class is wasted on you. :P Maybe I should suggest to the GM that Soldier's BAB get upped to full instead of 3/4... Edit: and by fractional progressions you mean...?
JasonOrlandoHawk 11-24-07, 02:36 AM	Fractional BAB is an alternate rule set described in the book "Unearthed Arcana." I don't think it is considered "Open" content, so I don't know if I'm allowed to actually explain it here. In your case, it may be a solid option. Check it out at your local bookstore. There is a "Fractional Save" system that goes along with it. Personally, I really like Fractional BAB, but I don't like Fractional Saves. I haven't implemented them in my games b/c I'm trying to figure out what to do with the Fractional Save system. (For those in the know, I object to Fractional Saves and the +2 bonus to good saves at 1st level additional classes.)
kuonji 11-24-07, 02:37 AM	Fractional progression: 1/2 BAB class gives +1/2 point of BAB/level 3/4 BAB class gives +3/4 point of BAB/level Full BAB class gives +1 point of BAB/level So for example, a rogue 1/cleric 1 would normally have a BAB of +0, but with the fractional system, would gain +3/4 for rogue and +3/4 for cleric for a total of +1.5 or +1 for purposes of attacks. Adding another level of either class would add another +3/4 to BAB and bring the total to +2.25 or +2.
Jaerom Darkwind 11-24-07, 02:44 AM	Doesn't matter. Fighting classes get full BAB, and the class features should be balanced around that, not the other way around. Fractional progressions are a variant in UA. Every progression is based on a formula, with the fractions rounded down. BAB is 1/1 level, 3/4 levels, and 1/2 levels. Saves are trickier: 2 + 1/2 levels, 3/5 + 2/5 levels, and 1/3 levels. Stick the fractions back in and you get two benefits: 1) all like progressions suddenly stack (so if you're a cleric 2/rogue 2, you end up with a BAB of 3/2 + 3/2 = 3, rather than +2) 2) unlike progressions will still sometimes produce fractions that add up to a while other point (a cleric 1/wizard 1 has a BAB of 1/2 + 3/4 = 1 1/4 or +1, rather than +0)
Master_Vega 11-24-07, 03:18 PM	Thanks everyone! I'll talk to the GM about all of these options and see what he thinks... It's kinda in the past now, so it's not a very big deal now since the campaign ended a few weeks ago, but it'll certainly help in later games.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-24-07, 03:41 PM	Master Vega: Maybe you should simply take this as a lesson. If you're a player and your DM doesn't like making house rules, use the existing rules to your advantage. I hate to endorse the kind of character building that creates really wonky class mixes that have no rp rationale, but if the d20 Modern classes are so poorly thought out--by all means, the next time you make a sniper character start with the strong hero base class and focus on PrCs with full BAB. Personally, I really like Fractional BAB, but I don't like Fractional Saves. I haven't implemented them in my games b/c I'm trying to figure out what to do with the Fractional Save system. (For those in the know, I object to Fractional Saves and the +2 bonus to good saves at 1st level additional classes.) I have to ask: why do you like fractional BAB but not fractional saves? My own house rule is to use fractional BAB and saves, but a character can only have that +2 good save bonus once per save type. So no matter how many classes you have, your saves are where they should be for your level.
Master_Vega 11-25-07, 11:59 AM	Master Vega: Maybe you should simply take this as a lesson. If you're a player and your DM doesn't like making house rules, use the existing rules to your advantage. I hate to endorse the kind of character building that creates really wonky class mixes that have no rp rationale, but if the d20 Modern classes are so poorly thought out--by all means, the next time you make a sniper character start with the strong hero base class and focus on PrCs with full BAB. In Modern, Full BAB is rare (except in the Future supplement, where the authors threw Modern balance out the window). The only two classes in the core book that even have full BAB are the Strong Hero and Martial Artist. Online supplements have a few full BAB prestige classes (like Sniper, which I would have taken had I found it less than three quarters through the campaign.) There is, of course, a lot to balance the lack of BAB for the other base classes. All classes in D20 Modern get a class bonus to defense (AC); Fast Hero gains the best at a total of +8 by level ten. Strong obviously gains less of a bonus. Strong also gains the smallest number of skillpoints at 4, while Smart gains the most at 9. Fast is in the middle at 7. Part of what killed me was that, though I've been in several campaigns before, this was my first campaign/character (we took a break to play some other games). I did not think to access the Future classes, one of which my friend was using, and so my character was weaker than his. I still think Soldier should have full BAB... so that'll be the first thing I ask him about. He's not bad about houserules so long as their well-explained. Thanks again!