Should Player-controlled Swarms be modified? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Should Player-controlled Swarms be modified? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gluestick
03-13-07, 04:45 PM I have a class combo which lets me control 288 Undead rats,all of which deal 1D3+1D6(cold) damage. Now call me crazy, but when I have almost 300 of them, how do they only have 2d8 HP, or do 1d^ damage? Seems to me that the following is much more effective, and logical.

HP: 1/4 D8, so 50% will have 1 HP, and 50% will have 2 HP. MEaning that the total hp for the swarm would be 432+4HP per rat, so 432+1152=1590 HP.

And since the rats get +7 to hit(With Corpsecrafter feats), they would need a 13 or higher to hit an enemy with AC20(which is fairly generous for most average enemies). That comes out to 35% of 288 hitting, which means that 101 rats will hit each turn. If that many rats hit, and each should logically do the rat damage, which could even be negligible, but let's throw it on anyways. That means potentially, it should do 1D6 for swarm damage+101D6 for each rat which gets the bonus cold damage.

Now when taking damage, a swarm would logically take damage in the following manner:

Swarm of 300 rats with 450 HP(Half got 1s, the other half got 2s).

It gets hit by a Barbarian, and takes 50 damage, that means that about 25 rats with 2 HP were destroyed, or that 50 with 1 were destroyed. NAturally, the damage would go down as the HP would. This seems far more logical than the silly way the book presents it. A swarm with 1 HP isn't much of a swarm, unless you're taken the time to scrape each one down to a fraction of an HP.

Please review this and offer suggestions.
bartleby42
03-13-07, 05:02 PM HP: 1/4 D8, so 50% will have 1 HP, and 50% will have 2 HP. MEaning that the total hp for the swarm would be 432+4HP per rat, so 432+1152=1590 HP.

So the hit points of your swarm should be more than most epic charecters?

And since the rats get +7 to hit(With Corpsecrafter feats), they would need a 13 or higher to hit an enemy with AC20(which is fairly generous for most average enemies). That comes out to 35% of 288 hitting, which means that 101 rats will hit each turn. If that many rats hit, and each should logically do the rat damage, which could even be negligible, but let's throw it on anyways. That means potentially, it should do 1D6 for swarm damage+101D6 for each rat which gets the bonus cold damage.

This is kinda crazy. To put it in a better light lets take a swarm or gnats. Itty-bitty bugs. Now the large gnat swarm should have about 10,000 gnats in it, so lets assume that they only get 1 hp each, so the swarm has a 10,000 hp. Now let's also assume because they are so small that they only hit on a natural 20 and can only deal 1 damage. So on with only hitting 5% of the time the gnat swarm does 500 damage a turn, on average.

See something wrong here?

Now when taking damage, a swarm would logically take damage in the following manner:

Swarm of 300 rats with 450 HP(Half got 1s, the other half got 2s).

It gets hit by a Barbarian, and takes 50 damage, that means that about 25 rats with 2 HP were destroyed, or that 50 with 1 were destroyed. NAturally, the damage would go down as the HP would. This seems far more logical than the silly way the book presents it. A swarm with 1 HP isn't much of a swarm, unless you're taken the time to scrape each one down to a fraction of an HP.

So how would you determine how many rats were killed? Would it be up to the player or the DM?

How the swarm rules are written they do sound wacky until you think about it in a new light. Your entire swarm is not attacking each turn, just the few that happen to be near the feet of thier foes. When your swarm is down to 1hp it is not lacking in members but close to dispersing. Think of hp in a swarm more as morale.

What your looking for, and might be a good idea for you, is a bunch of tiny or smaller undead beasties with swarm fighting. Swarms aren't meant to be stated out for each member.
Gluestick
03-13-07, 05:08 PM I had considered the dispersement already, but they are Undead and controlled by my commands. They won't act unless I tell them to. This means that they are fighting to the death of each and every rat.

So the hit points of your swarm should be more than most epic charecters?

This is kinda crazy. To put it in a better light lets take a swarm or gnats. Itty-bitty bugs. Now the large gnat swarm should have about 10,000 gnats in it, so lets assume that they only get 1 hp each, so the swarm has a 10,000 hp. Now let's also assume because they are so small that they only hit on a natural 20 and can only deal 1 damage. So on with only hitting 5% of the time the gnat swarm does 500 damage a turn, on average.

See something wrong here?

No, because I can only control (Cha+4)*CL HD of undead
bartleby42
03-13-07, 08:14 PM No, because I can only control (Cha+4)*CL HD of undead

So you can't control the 300 rats in your swarm? Or do you have a cha of 32 (+11 mod +4 x 20)?

Even if you were able to control the swarm without issues if you went with your rule a DM would quickly attack you with a gnat swarm which under your rules becomes a cloud of death.
Cyanide300
03-13-07, 09:03 PM Should Player-controlled Swarms be modified?
...
[Some crazy ideas about cataclysmic rat swarms]
No. And definately not like that.
Crimson_Concerto
03-13-07, 09:16 PM No. And definately not like that.

Agreed.
Gluestick
03-13-07, 10:17 PM So you can't control the 300 rats in your swarm? Or do you have a cha of 32 (+11 mod +4 x 20)?

Even if you were able to control the swarm without issues if you went with your rule a DM would quickly attack you with a gnat swarm which under your rules becomes a cloud of death.

Technically I can control them. I can control up to 72HD by 8th level, when I get the spell. And Rats are 1/4 HD.

72*4=288

But even if I had 300 Undead rats, and they acted as a normal swarm with 2D8, would it not deal 300D6 upon dying, since 300 rats would be dead?
Drodain
03-13-07, 11:32 PM The point is only so many rats can cover so much of the target to do so much damage. It would be reasonable to say they do so much damage per square the target takes up. Also the low HP is okay because it's a little bit more difficult to hurt them than just swinging at them. Area effects being the best way to actually hurt them.
IceFractal
03-13-07, 11:58 PM First off, if you animate the rats separately, they wouldn't be a swarm by default. Now it's reasonable to rule that they become a swarm, but that's up to the DM.

Certainly, if you count each rat separately, then they'd do a lot more damage. However, they would have a huge weakness - area effects. If they deal damage separately, then they should also take damage separately. This mean, you don't have one creature with 1590 hp, you have 288 creatures with 1 or 2 hp. Which means that a single fireball could destroy your entire horde. Also, there's the positioning issue. If you count the rats separately, then they must occupy squares according to the normal rules, which sharply limits how many rats can attack a foe at once, and means they'll have to form a long line to fit through most doorways, and will hinder your own movement.

Long answer short, if you want the benefits of a swarm (not autokilled by AoE, doesn't fill up the whole area, can attack from any part, nauseates foes), then you must take the downsides as well (less damage, less HP).
bartleby42
03-14-07, 02:00 AM Technically I can control them. I can control up to 72HD by 8th level, when I get the spell. And Rats are 1/4 HD.

I forgot about fractional hit dice. So my gnats in my undead gnat swarm have 1/1000 of a hit die, so I can control them too. Okay I win.

Even if you can control all of the seperate rats it doesn't dismiss the inherent problems with your system. My 10,000 gnats still deal 500 points of damage a round, and still have more hitpoints than anything else. You don't see how this is a problem?

Sure there are 300 rats, but 300 points of damage is massive, it can level a building, at the very least knock down an adamantine wall, and that's mininmum damage! When was the last time you saw rats knock down a wall in 6 seconds?

I understand your frustrated that your swarm isn't as tough as you think it ought to be, but these rules turn swarms into moving a-bombs, and as such aren't a good idea.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gluestick 03-13-07, 04:45 PM	I have a class combo which lets me control 288 Undead rats,all of which deal 1D3+1D6(cold) damage. Now call me crazy, but when I have almost 300 of them, how do they only have 2d8 HP, or do 1d^ damage? Seems to me that the following is much more effective, and logical. HP: 1/4 D8, so 50% will have 1 HP, and 50% will have 2 HP. MEaning that the total hp for the swarm would be 432+4HP per rat, so 432+1152=1590 HP. And since the rats get +7 to hit(With Corpsecrafter feats), they would need a 13 or higher to hit an enemy with AC20(which is fairly generous for most average enemies). That comes out to 35% of 288 hitting, which means that 101 rats will hit each turn. If that many rats hit, and each should logically do the rat damage, which could even be negligible, but let's throw it on anyways. That means potentially, it should do 1D6 for swarm damage+101D6 for each rat which gets the bonus cold damage. Now when taking damage, a swarm would logically take damage in the following manner: Swarm of 300 rats with 450 HP(Half got 1s, the other half got 2s). It gets hit by a Barbarian, and takes 50 damage, that means that about 25 rats with 2 HP were destroyed, or that 50 with 1 were destroyed. NAturally, the damage would go down as the HP would. This seems far more logical than the silly way the book presents it. A swarm with 1 HP isn't much of a swarm, unless you're taken the time to scrape each one down to a fraction of an HP. Please review this and offer suggestions.
bartleby42 03-13-07, 05:02 PM	HP: 1/4 D8, so 50% will have 1 HP, and 50% will have 2 HP. MEaning that the total hp for the swarm would be 432+4HP per rat, so 432+1152=1590 HP. So the hit points of your swarm should be more than most epic charecters? And since the rats get +7 to hit(With Corpsecrafter feats), they would need a 13 or higher to hit an enemy with AC20(which is fairly generous for most average enemies). That comes out to 35% of 288 hitting, which means that 101 rats will hit each turn. If that many rats hit, and each should logically do the rat damage, which could even be negligible, but let's throw it on anyways. That means potentially, it should do 1D6 for swarm damage+101D6 for each rat which gets the bonus cold damage. This is kinda crazy. To put it in a better light lets take a swarm or gnats. Itty-bitty bugs. Now the large gnat swarm should have about 10,000 gnats in it, so lets assume that they only get 1 hp each, so the swarm has a 10,000 hp. Now let's also assume because they are so small that they only hit on a natural 20 and can only deal 1 damage. So on with only hitting 5% of the time the gnat swarm does 500 damage a turn, on average. See something wrong here? Now when taking damage, a swarm would logically take damage in the following manner: Swarm of 300 rats with 450 HP(Half got 1s, the other half got 2s). It gets hit by a Barbarian, and takes 50 damage, that means that about 25 rats with 2 HP were destroyed, or that 50 with 1 were destroyed. NAturally, the damage would go down as the HP would. This seems far more logical than the silly way the book presents it. A swarm with 1 HP isn't much of a swarm, unless you're taken the time to scrape each one down to a fraction of an HP. So how would you determine how many rats were killed? Would it be up to the player or the DM? How the swarm rules are written they do sound wacky until you think about it in a new light. Your entire swarm is not attacking each turn, just the few that happen to be near the feet of thier foes. When your swarm is down to 1hp it is not lacking in members but close to dispersing. Think of hp in a swarm more as morale. What your looking for, and might be a good idea for you, is a bunch of tiny or smaller undead beasties with swarm fighting. Swarms aren't meant to be stated out for each member.
Gluestick 03-13-07, 05:08 PM	I had considered the dispersement already, but they are Undead and controlled by my commands. They won't act unless I tell them to. This means that they are fighting to the death of each and every rat. So the hit points of your swarm should be more than most epic charecters? This is kinda crazy. To put it in a better light lets take a swarm or gnats. Itty-bitty bugs. Now the large gnat swarm should have about 10,000 gnats in it, so lets assume that they only get 1 hp each, so the swarm has a 10,000 hp. Now let's also assume because they are so small that they only hit on a natural 20 and can only deal 1 damage. So on with only hitting 5% of the time the gnat swarm does 500 damage a turn, on average. See something wrong here? No, because I can only control (Cha+4)*CL HD of undead
bartleby42 03-13-07, 08:14 PM	No, because I can only control (Cha+4)*CL HD of undead So you can't control the 300 rats in your swarm? Or do you have a cha of 32 (+11 mod +4 x 20)? Even if you were able to control the swarm without issues if you went with your rule a DM would quickly attack you with a gnat swarm which under your rules becomes a cloud of death.
Cyanide300 03-13-07, 09:03 PM	Should Player-controlled Swarms be modified? ... [Some crazy ideas about cataclysmic rat swarms] No. And definately not like that.
Crimson_Concerto 03-13-07, 09:16 PM	No. And definately not like that. Agreed.
Gluestick 03-13-07, 10:17 PM	So you can't control the 300 rats in your swarm? Or do you have a cha of 32 (+11 mod +4 x 20)? Even if you were able to control the swarm without issues if you went with your rule a DM would quickly attack you with a gnat swarm which under your rules becomes a cloud of death. Technically I can control them. I can control up to 72HD by 8th level, when I get the spell. And Rats are 1/4 HD. 72*4=288 But even if I had 300 Undead rats, and they acted as a normal swarm with 2D8, would it not deal 300D6 upon dying, since 300 rats would be dead?
Drodain 03-13-07, 11:32 PM	The point is only so many rats can cover so much of the target to do so much damage. It would be reasonable to say they do so much damage per square the target takes up. Also the low HP is okay because it's a little bit more difficult to hurt them than just swinging at them. Area effects being the best way to actually hurt them.
IceFractal 03-13-07, 11:58 PM	First off, if you animate the rats separately, they wouldn't be a swarm by default. Now it's reasonable to rule that they become a swarm, but that's up to the DM. Certainly, if you count each rat separately, then they'd do a lot more damage. However, they would have a huge weakness - area effects. If they deal damage separately, then they should also take damage separately. This mean, you don't have one creature with 1590 hp, you have 288 creatures with 1 or 2 hp. Which means that a single fireball could destroy your entire horde. Also, there's the positioning issue. If you count the rats separately, then they must occupy squares according to the normal rules, which sharply limits how many rats can attack a foe at once, and means they'll have to form a long line to fit through most doorways, and will hinder your own movement. Long answer short, if you want the benefits of a swarm (not autokilled by AoE, doesn't fill up the whole area, can attack from any part, nauseates foes), then you must take the downsides as well (less damage, less HP).
bartleby42 03-14-07, 02:00 AM	Technically I can control them. I can control up to 72HD by 8th level, when I get the spell. And Rats are 1/4 HD. I forgot about fractional hit dice. So my gnats in my undead gnat swarm have 1/1000 of a hit die, so I can control them too. Okay I win. Even if you can control all of the seperate rats it doesn't dismiss the inherent problems with your system. My 10,000 gnats still deal 500 points of damage a round, and still have more hitpoints than anything else. You don't see how this is a problem? Sure there are 300 rats, but 300 points of damage is massive, it can level a building, at the very least knock down an adamantine wall, and that's mininmum damage! When was the last time you saw rats knock down a wall in 6 seconds? I understand your frustrated that your swarm isn't as tough as you think it ought to be, but these rules turn swarms into moving a-bombs, and as such aren't a good idea.