Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tenzhi 06-16-05, 02:23 AM	Just a simple modification that makes all ability scores important for saving throws. Each of the saving throws (Ref, Will, and Fort) is based on the average of two ability score modifiers. Reflex - Dexterity and Intelligence Will - Charisma and Wisdom Fortitude - Strength and Constitution ... Yup, that's it. I said it was simple.
weasel fierce 06-16-05, 02:41 AM	I rather like it actually. I'd be more prone to simply throwing out saving throws as a mechanic, but I dont think the D20 system can handle that. Your idea has the added bonus that it reduces the chances of "dump stats"
Ellanon 06-16-05, 03:50 AM	Just a simple modification that makes all ability scores important for saving throws. Each of the saving throws (Ref, Will, and Fort) is based on the average of two ability score modifiers. Reflex - Dexterity and Intelligence Will - Charisma and Wisdom Fortitude - Strength and Constitution ... Yup, that's it. I said it was simple. Interesting. I like it. I'll propose it to my group for our upcoming campaign and see how they feel about it.
Ranger REG 06-16-05, 04:39 AM	Just a simple modification that makes all ability scores important for saving throws. Each of the saving throws (Ref, Will, and Fort) is based on the average of two ability score modifiers. Reflex - Dexterity and Intelligence Will - Charisma and Wisdom Fortitude - Strength and Constitution :uh-huh: How does Strength play a part in fighting off a poison or a disease?
Tenzhi 06-16-05, 04:58 AM	:uh-huh: How does Strength play a part in fighting off a poison or a disease? Not that it's particularly important given the highly abstract nature of D&D - however: Poison: Higher strength typically means more body mass; more body mass typically means a greater resistance to poisons that can be resisted. Indeed, given the nature of poisons, body mass would generally be more important than overall health in determining the effectiveness of the poison. Disease: Better developed musculature goes hand-in-hand with a healthy circulatory system. This means a more active immune system, or one with more efficient delivery anyway.
Aurotuli 06-16-05, 05:26 AM	There is another view to consider. The fortitude save is also used for endurance checks - and that most certainly is just as influenced by muscle mass as general health. In fact, in my system I use a separate Endurance save, based on Strength. Fortitude still exists, but it is limited only to factors that deal with ability damage / drain and level drain. If it deals with hp loss or subdual damage than it deals with the Endurance save. Endurance (str) Reflex (dex) Fortitude (con) Sanity (wis) Perception (wis) Will (cha) Of course, I am also working on a new variant of the d20 system - based entirely on skills: saves, attack, defense, magic, general skills, etc. In that system I am playing with the idea of each class simply having 2 save skill points per level, placed as wished. Since any realistically set up campaign will involve multiple uses of all the saves any attempt to forego one save for too long will eventually lead to character trouble - if not death. And it is much much harder to return from the dead in my campaigns. I'm still working with the idea. In the end each character would have about 40 to 50 points spread over 6 skills: +6 to +8 in each skill unless they decide to specialize in one or two - at the expense of the others. The idea is relatively new, so I am still working on it. Perhaps in a week or two I'll have most of the bugs worked out. - - - As for the system proposed, I see two problems: first it encourages lower ability scores, as raising any particular score high will (1) be difficult (of course), and (2) will make little difference to any given save. Why waste the trouble when you know you have to raise an ability by at least +4 to gain an increase to a save (or +2 to both)? This is due to averages. Starting out: Str 12 Con 12 Ave: 12 (+1) Str 14 (increased by +2) Con 12 Ave: 13 (still +1) Str 16 (increased by +4 from original) Con 12 Ave: 14 (+2, finally) OR Str 14 (+2) Con 14 (+2) Ave: 14 (+2, but note both Str & Con had to increase by +2, a net total rise of +4) Not including magical enhancement, on average the saves will only be raised by +1 at 16th level - assuming all the bonii go to abilities that work together (such as Str and Con, not Str and Dex). Otherwise, I think it will work well. It will make saves more difficult to improve other than through class bonii or magical enhancement - furthering the importance of both. It also all but guarentees that most players will not take saves into account when determining which ability score to increase at level 4, etc for reasons already stated. But playtest it. I could be overstating something minor due to ignorance. If it works well in playtesting than all the better for it.
Tenzhi 06-16-05, 06:00 AM	Interesting and observant points, Aurotuli; however, what you list as problems are what many would see as boons.
BelZoradon 06-16-05, 09:35 AM	Tenzhi: have you had a chance to test that? under what charcture creation rules? on average did you get higher or lower saves?
Tenzhi 06-17-05, 04:37 AM	Tenzhi: have you had a chance to test that? under what charcture creation rules? on average did you get higher or lower saves? I haven't had a chance to test it, and when I do it will be with a highly modified ruleset. As for whether saves will be higher or lower - they will tend to gravitate toward lower/zero. Ability scores will have a less dramatic effect individually on saving throws.
BelZoradon 06-17-05, 10:41 AM	well i might try and give them a quick test next time i get my world testing party together so ill post me results and ideas when that happens
Aurotuli 06-19-05, 03:22 AM	True, I can see how some DMs might see a lower save as a boon. However, I have to admit I am glad that this variant of saves is part of a 'highly modified ruleset'. If it were not, I'd be serious worried about balance. With this varient DCs need to be adjusted, classes need to be adjusted, and monsters need to be adjusted.
Tenzhi 06-19-05, 03:45 AM	It shouldn't require much, if any, adjustment to classes or DCs. The majority of PCs will see at most a +2 drop in saving throws (that's with up to an 8 point difference between the ability scores that determine the save). Various monsters' saving throws may admittedly be dramatically affected, but for the most part that will just make the monster slightly different in encounters rather than much better or worse. Off the top of my head, the only universal DC modification I'm putting into effect is changing save DCs versus spells to 14 + 1/2 CL.