Post/Author/DateTime	Post
InkBlot 07-14-07, 10:23 PM	Turn undead has always annoyed me. There are too many rolls and too many things to look up. So like Alexander and King Solomon, I just cut it in half. TURN UNDEAD Turning Check: Forget the turning check. Ditch the table. On any given turning attempt, you can turn no single undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed your cleric level + your Charisma modifier. Turning Damage: Roll 2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage. That’s how many total Hit Dice of undead you can turn. You may skip over already turned undead that are still within range, so that you do not waste your turning capacity on them. Simple, right? I've houseruled this into a game already, but it's probably not going to get used. The only character who can turn undead is a factotum, and he will most likely want to save his opportunistic piety for healing rather than spend it on turn attempts. Honestly, I don't have much experience with turn undead in actual play. I've never played a paladin or cleric, and most people who have either use their turn attempts to fuel other abilities, took prestige classes that don't advance turning, or simply ignore the ability. Can anybody predict how my houserule might affect things? Would it make turning more useful, since the players always have a good idea of how powerful an undead they can affect? Or would it make turning too powerful, because a cleric with a high charisma could always turn an undead which would otherwise require a high roll?
Rhialto 07-14-07, 10:39 PM	Personally, I replace the table with (level + Cha modifier + 1d6 -1d6). Slightly wider random range, bt simpler to remember than a table.
Tequila_Sunrise 07-15-07, 02:19 AM	Turn undead has always annoyed me. There are too many rolls and too many things to look up. So like Alexander and King Solomon, I just cut it in half. TURN UNDEAD Turning Check: Forget the turning check. Ditch the table. On any given turning attempt, you can turn no single undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed your cleric level + your Charisma modifier. Turning Damage: Roll 2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage. That’s how many total Hit Dice of undead you can turn. You may skip over already turned undead that are still within range, so that you do not waste your turning capacity on them. Simple, right? I've houseruled this into a game already, but it's probably not going to get used. The only character who can turn undead is a factotum, and he will most likely want to save his opportunistic piety for healing rather than spend it on turn attempts. Honestly, I don't have much experience with turn undead in actual play. I've never played a paladin or cleric, and most people who have either use their turn attempts to fuel other abilities, took prestige classes that don't advance turning, or simply ignore the ability. Can anybody predict how my houserule might affect things? Would it make turning more useful, since the players always have a good idea of how powerful an undead they can affect? Or would it make turning too powerful, because a cleric with a high charisma could always turn an undead which would otherwise require a high roll? This is much simpler, which is great, but it doesn't solve one of the most common problems with undead turning: cleric level v. undead HD. Your system will work fine against classed undead (liches, vampires, etc.) but will remain ineffective against monstrous undead because they tend to have many more HD than a cleric of equivalent level. If this doesn't bother you, well, problem solved. Otherwise, there is a variant turning rule in the Complete Divine that is a bit different. A turning attempt deals 1d6/level positive energy damage to all undead within 30', with a save for half (DC 10 + cleric level + Cha). Personally I love this variant because it's simple, effective and makes sense from a roleplaying perspective. (why would a good cleric want to make the undead run away, where they will become someone else's problem?!)
Cheza 07-22-07, 11:17 AM	@ Tequila_Sunrise Your sysem is bad because the normal turn undead rule doesn't sum up. But your damage rule does... and this makes ANY undead easier to kill. Let's look at the facts about fear. Normally you make a will save against the fear DC. If it's a fear spell, you use the spell DC. If it's a skill check, you use the check result. So I would suggest a system, where clerics use turn undead similar to a monk's stunning attack. Undead creatures within a given range or shaped area must make a will save. The DC is 10 + 1/2 class levels + Cha. Failure means, that they are shaken and try to get out of the turning area. They do not flee. Failure by 5 or more means, that they become "cowering". So the will save bonus and the turning range are the limits for this ability.
Tequila_Sunrise 07-22-07, 03:08 PM	@ Tequila_Sunrise Your sysem is bad because the normal turn undead rule doesn't sum up. But your damage rule does... and this makes ANY undead easier to kill. Care to rephrase that? I have no idea what you're trying to say. Oh, and you're rule ain't too hot either. Undead have good will saves, which means they're only likely to fail your save on a very low roll.
archerpwr 07-22-07, 04:45 PM	Care to rephrase that? I have no idea what you're trying to say. Oh, and you're rule ain't too hot either. Undead have good will saves, which means they're only likely to fail your save on a very low roll. You add your cleric level (not half as spells) and +2 for 5 ranks in knowledge religion. That is a pretty hard save. I used that rule in Expedition to castle ravencloft and the cleric was effectively a blaster mage nuke on undead (very rarely did undead save). It's a good varient.
Palomides 07-22-07, 09:55 PM	(very rarely did undead save). It's a good varient. No it's not. Why make a rule to make things easier ?
Tequila_Sunrise 07-22-07, 11:39 PM	You add your cleric level (not half as spells) and +2 for 5 ranks in knowledge religion. That is a pretty hard save. I used that rule in Expedition to castle ravencloft and the cleric was effectively a blaster mage nuke on undead (very rarely did undead save). It's a good varient. Ah, I see. Cheza and Palomides: I could understand using 1/2 cleric level save for the CD variant, but using the 1/2 standard for an effect that has little/no penalties on a successful save will result in undead hardly ever being meaningfully affected. Which is fine if you like turn/rebuke to be near-useless (especially at high levels), as it is with standard turning, but I figure that as long as we're changing the mechanic we might as well really change it.
archerpwr 07-23-07, 09:42 AM	No it's not. Why make a rule to make things easier ? Because the DMM cleric used turns to actually turn? Turn undead was actually used? It's only a d6/ level?
Seldriss 07-23-07, 02:21 PM	I am using a mix of the Complete Divine and the variants posted above : There is no turning check. The cleric just call upon his faith. There is no maximum hit dice, but a maximum number of creatures (cleric's level + charisma modifier). Then undead make a Will save (DC10+level+modCha). The turning resistance becomes a bonus to the save. If they fail, they are shaken. If their hit dice are lower than half the cleric's level, they cower or flee the area. I don't give the +2 synergy from knowledge/religion to the turn attempt, as there is no check, but i apply it to the knowledge of the creature, to know about its abilities and weaknesses. If the cleric belongs ot a cult dedicated to fight undead, then he gets the holy damage variant, but i also changed it : The effect is a cone in front of the cleric, not a radius. The damage is 1d6 per 2 levels, but if the save is made the undead takes no damage. 1d6 per level and save for half-damage seem too much to me.
eamon 07-23-07, 05:25 PM	If this doesn't bother you, well, problem solved. Otherwise, there is a variant turning rule in the Complete Divine that is a bit different. A turning attempt deals 1d6/level positive energy damage to all undead within 30', with a save for half (DC 10 + cleric level + Cha). Personally I love this variant because it's simple, effective and makes sense from a roleplaying perspective. (why would a good cleric want to make the undead run away, where they will become someone else's problem?!) I don't like the fact that turning has now changed to a simple blasting spell. Blasting spells are boring. Part of the fun is that turn undead simply shakes things up; it's a temporary measure; it's battlefield control; it's more fun. But granted, that method is very simple. Looking through the MM though, most undead can easily be turned with the HD based method. It looks as though mostly high-HD skeletons and zombies can't... and well... who cares? If you're truly worried, simple houserule that turning is twice as effective vs. mindless undead. Edit - Looking at the 2nd level spell Command Undead (Sor/Wiz only), it seems that mindless undead are easy to convince anyways - they automatically fail their save vs. that spell. So either you can consider the ineffectiveness of turning as a need to cooperate with the wizard, or, you can simply make mindless undead far, far easier to turn (but you'll be reducing the challenge by doing so). You could also just add Command Undead to the cleric spell list and then if the cleric expects trouble from high-level zombies or skeletons... well...
eamon 07-23-07, 05:55 PM	How about rolling turning check and damage into one? You can turn 1d20-10 + 2x level + Cha total HD. The highest HD effected is half that, rounded down. This seems balanced to me, though I don't like the -10 (extra calculations, bad), and it retains randomness in the max HD that can be turned (which is a good thing, because it means that you never quite know if it's useful to try and turn that lich again...)
mshea 07-23-07, 06:19 PM	We switched to the Complete Divine way in my last game yesterday. Our 16th level cleric suddenly became the primary damage dealer for the group. 16d6, no SR, save for half and it was stacking up damage against a lich and a 20th level sword sage vampire. It's a little boring but in at 16th level game its nice to have something simple.
Tequila_Sunrise 07-23-07, 06:40 PM	Looking through the MM though, most undead can easily be turned with the HD based method. It looks as though mostly high-HD skeletons and zombies can't... and well... who cares? If you're truly worried, simple houserule that turning is twice as effective vs. mindless undead. If you pay attention to monster design trends, you'll find that most undead seem to be designed to be difficult to turn. They tend to either have more than 1 HD per CR or turn resistance that more than makes up for their seeming vulnerability to turn/rebuke. At low levels, it's not a big problem but once a cleric gets into the mid- and high-levels, turn/rebuke becomes less and less useful. Ruling that mindless undead are 'twice as susceptable' to turning will only solve the problem temporarily. It'd work for a long while for skellies, but by mid-levels zombies would again be laughing at any cleric attempting turn them. Personally, I prefer that the cleric's trademark, non-optional class ability consistently work as it is described. I hate when turn/rebuke becomes either fuel for other abilities (divine metamagic cheese, I'm looking at you) or is simply ignored because it's not effective. If you feel that a blasty effect is boring, well there's nothing I can do to help. If you'd rather use a exciting (?) ability than an effective one, more power to you. Maybe this is your way of roleplaying, though as I mentioned before I have trouble imagining how that works.
strenoth 07-23-07, 08:09 PM	personally, I like the damaging varient in complete Divine, you blast them with positive energy to do HP damage instead.
eamon 07-24-07, 08:43 AM	Well... A CR15 Vampire is effectively HD17 vs. turning. Should a 15th level party encounter them, then, using the variant I'm proposing you have a very decent chance of turning it; and turning is quite effective if it's successful since essentially the undead loses all actions for the following 10 rounds. A CR13 Lich is effectively HD15, and quite doable too therefore (and these are "BBEG-style" undead, which shouldn't be easy to turn) A CR11 Dread Wraith is effectively HD16. This is doable, but problematic, turning won't be effective here. OK, let's see, here's a few data points: Name=============CR==HD==TR====HP==Fort= Ref=Will==Mindless Zombie A 1/2 2 - 16 1 -1 3 y Skeleton A 1 2 - 13 0 3 3 y Zombie B 2 6 - 42 2 2 5 y Skeleton B 3 6 - 39 2 5 5 y Zombie C 5 16 - 107 5 5 10 y Skeleton C 7 17 - 110 5 7 10 y Ghoul 1 2 - 13 0 2 5 n Ghast 3 4 - 29 1 4 6 n Shadow 3 3 +2 19 1 3 4 n Wight 3 4 - 26 1 2 5 n Allip 3 4 - 26 1 4 4 n Vampire Spawn 4 4 +2 29 1 5 5 n Wraith 5 5 - 32 1 4 6 n Mummy 5 8 - 55 4 2 8 n Spectre 7 7 +2 45 2 5 7 n Ghost 7 5 +4 32 4 2 2 n Vampire 7 5 +4 32 4 6 4 n Greater Shadow 8 9 +2 58 3 5 7 n Bodak 8 9 - 58 3 5 7 n Mohrg 8 14 - 91 4 10 9 n Devourer 11 12 - 78 4 4 11 n Dread Wraith 11 16 - 104 5 14 14 n Lich 13 11 +4 74 4 7 10 n Nightwing 14 17 144 9 11 17 n Elite Vampire 15 13 +4 90 7 16 13 n Mummy Lord 15 18 - 97 13 8 20 n Nightwalker 16 21 178 11 11 19 n Nightcrawler 18 25 212 12 10 23 n I'll ponder now. :)
Rhialto 07-24-07, 09:08 AM	The main problem with the variant in Complete Divine is that lower level clerics can now nickel-and-dime even really powerful undead, reducing their threat considerably if the clerics can organise. I'm thinking if you do that variant, it might be interesting to give the undead some damage reduction against turning, on teh order of one point per HD, plus 3 points per point of turn resistance they have in RAW.
eamon 07-24-07, 09:25 AM	If I look at that data, and deal with the mindless undead separately... Well, basically, HD scales fine. Sure high-level undead's HD outpaces CR, but only slightly. If you make the Cha modifier more important you should be able to compensate, as that grows slightly along with level too (assuming somebody is at all trying to be able to turn undead). The problem will will saves is that they're all over the board; and that they're easier to "optimize" - meaning, next time you make a vampire, you'll just make sure it's will save is higher (etc). The problem with HD isn't so much these monsters, but improved versions thereof - according to the "improving monsters" section, undead gain about 1CR per 4HD when improved by adding HD. That's... unfortunate, but if you rarely improve by adding HD, you're fine. Undead that improve by class level are no problem here. Finally, I think a method that uses HD will work fine for these monsters. Something like: 1d6-4 + class level + Cha modifer determines the max HD turned , and the total turned is twice that. Dividing Skeleton and Zombie HD by two works fine, and is turnable, even at high level (though it does get harder then - but then again, given the simplicity of dealing with them via spells and other means, that shouldn't be a problem). If it really bothers you, divide by three. You can make some reasonably expensive magic items that should be available after level 15 that can boost turning power if you want to improve high-level turning still further.
eamon 07-24-07, 09:33 AM	The main problem with the variant in Complete Divine is that lower level clerics can now nickel-and-dime even really powerful undead, reducing their threat considerably if the clerics can organise. I'm thinking if you do that variant, it might be interesting to give the undead some damage reduction against turning, on teh order of one point per HD, plus 3 points per point of turn resistance they have in RAW. It also dramatically changes the focus - previously, the cleric could shake up opposing undead, and save his allies when they need to retreat or split up groups of undead that are too large to handle at once, and with that variant he can do direct damage, which makes battles less tactical. And it's heavily tilted in favor of mindless undead too, which have relatively large hitpoint-pools, and against more advanced undead. In my mind, turning is a tool for holding the hordes at bay and maybe rescuing your friends, but not for destroying high-level undead. If you let turning do direct damage, then your lich just became a lot less dangerous... The normal effects of turning appeal more to my sense of fantasy flavor. Turning makes undead special, and if turning is simply yet another blasting spell, then the difference between undead and other monsters just became smaller.
Steely_Dan 07-24-07, 09:53 AM	The normal effects of turning appeal more to my sense of fantasy flavor. Turning makes undead special, and if turning is simply yet another blasting spell, then the difference between undead and other monsters just became smaller. I feel the opposite, ever since 1st edition AD&D I have found the turning rules to be odd and clunky, and not represented in any fantasy that I've read.
archerpwr 07-24-07, 09:55 AM	The normal effects of turning appeal more to my sense of fantasy flavor. Turning makes undead special, and if turning is simply yet another blasting spell, then the difference between undead and other monsters just became smaller. Imagine: A dirt streaked young holy warrior is almost out of spells and surrounded by undead and her friends are staggering. She cradles the hed of her fallen comrade in her arms as divine influence fills her. A voice with the wrath of her god bellows from her too small frame "BEGONE!" A searing light radiates from her and puts the fighting spirit back into her friends. As it reaches the undead several are completely obliterated. A couple manage the assault, but her comrades make quick work of them. It's all how you say it happens :D
Rhialto 07-24-07, 09:57 AM	I feel the opposite, ever since 1st edition AD&D I have found the turning rules to be odd and clunky, and not represented in any fantasy that I've read. We must read different fantasy literature. Traditional fantasy literature is literally riddled with vampires and such being held back (not zapped; held back) by by a strongly-presented crucifix. ETA: That variant I wrtote is an early draft for a system which is not particularly close to traditional fantasy literature.
Steely_Dan 07-24-07, 10:08 AM	We must read different fantasy literature. Traditional fantasy literature is literally riddled with vampires and such being held back (not zapped; held back) by by a strongly-presented crucifix. Yes, we must. What fantasy literature are you talking about, because I don't remember reading about any vampires etc being held back by someone presenting a crucifix, aside from Dracula (zzzzzzzzzzz)? I'm not being funny, but really, I don't remember anything of the sort in books such as LotR. Elric, Lankhmar, Conan, Thomas Covenant, Rift War etc.
eamon 07-24-07, 12:15 PM	Yes, we must. What fantasy literature are you talking about, because I don't remember reading about any vampires etc being held back by someone presenting a crucifix, aside from Dracula (zzzzzzzzzzz)? I'm not being funny, but really, I don't remember anything of the sort in books such as LotR. Elric, Lankhmar, Conan, Thomas Covenant, Rift War etc. I don't read much undead-heavy stories (and those you just named aren't all familiar to me, but the names I do know aren't of that type either, right?), but it's not really an issue anyhow. If you want clerics to repeatedly "burn" undead until they fall apart, then the Complete Divine rules are just what the doctor ordered. If you don't, they aren't. :) I think I'll let it depend on what my players want and the type of campaign.
CrazyOzzy 07-29-07, 10:04 AM	For those that prefer the current battle control aspect of Turn Undead but would like a mechanical change to the rolls : Just keep the effect as is but make the save : DC = 10 + Cleric Level + CHA bonus. (Will) If it is too difficult a save then use 1/2 Cleric level. I am going to change the rules, but I haven't decided yet if I will use the ones mentionned above or the CD variant.
Rhialto 07-29-07, 11:38 AM	A complete alternative to this is that clerics get "channel positive/negative energy" as a class feature, and receive one free divine feat at first level. In this alteration, both standard turn undead and the CD variant are each their own separate feat.
CrazyOzzy 07-29-07, 01:05 PM	A bit like the Ultimate Cleric. http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/Ultimate_Cleric it is still clunky but seems a bit better. The ability to channel positive or negative energ is called Faith.