Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darth_Singe 07-17-07, 06:31 PM	Here it is. All Metamagic feats have become talents in my system. Here are the core feats for the system. As far as balance, well, what balance? What's the difference between preparing spells 5 times each or just casting the same spells over again each encounter? Or putting your fave spells in a staff or wand? Also, the caster must have the spell components for each time he wishes to cast the spell, otherwise he can't cast the spell, so i think that maybe a system needs to be divised in which the caster can purchase the spell componnets for his spells. While not going into the AD&D 2nd Tome Of Spell Components mode, I would assign a cheap price, sort of 2 sp/level of the spell as an easy method, while spells with an expensive material component would remain the same costwise. Then of course you would need to record all your components for each spell you can cast on a seperate sheet, so it might be a bit more paperwork, but I really think not as much as recording your prepared spells and crossing them off each time they are cast (or however you do your spells) Also, the main spellcasting classes (Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, etc.) all have the starting ability Improved Caster Level which makes their caster level equal to thier class level (as opposed to 1/2 character level). Caster levels stack, so a Fighter 4/Wizard 6 would have a caster level of 8, and could learn and cast 4th level spells. well, here is the rough draft form. Magic In order to use magic, the character must first take one of the following feats: Arcane Ability, Inherited magic, or Divine Faith. Arcane Ability Requires: Int 10 Benefit: You are able to understand and cast arcane spells. In order to learn or cast a spell, you must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell's level. Your caster level is equal to one-half your character level, rounded down. Whenever you cast a spell that has one or more targets, you may need to make a Spellpower check (d20 + caster level + spell's level + Intelligence modifier). The spell's description will determine what defense (if any) the spell targets, and what the effects will be should your Spellpower roll defeat your targets defense. Each encounter, you may cast each spell in your spell suite one time. You may spend an action point to regain any arcane spell cast this encounter. In order to learn a spell, you must take the Arcane Spell Knowledge feat. Spellcraft is a class skill for you. Arcane Spell Knowledge Requires: Arcane Ability, trained in the Spellcraft skill. Benefit: You learn a number of arcane spells of any level you can cast equal to 1 + Int modifier. The maximum level of any spell you can learn or cast is equal to 1/2 your caster level. You can add the same spell more than once (Putting into your suite more than one time, meaning you can cast the same spell moire than once per encounter). Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take this feat, you add to your spell suite a number of new arcane spells of a level you can learn and cast equal to your Intelligence modifier. If your Intelligence modifier permanently increases, you immediateky learn a number of spells equal to the number of Arcane Spell Knowledge feats you have taken. Divine Faith Requires: Wis 10 Benefit: You are able to understand and cast divine spells. In order to learn or cast a spell, you must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the spell's level. Your caster level is equal to one-half your character level, rounded down. Whenever you cast a spell that has one or more targets, you may need to make a Spellpower check (d20 + caster level + spell's level + Wisdom modifier). The spell's description will determine what defense (if any) the spell targets, and what the effects will be should your Spellpower roll defeat your targets defense. Each encounter, you may cast each spell in your spell suite one time. You may spend an action point to regain any divine spell cast this encounter. In order to learn a spell, you must take the Divine Spell Knowledge feat. Spellcraft is a class skill for you. Divine Spell Knowledge Requires: Divine Faith, trained in the Spellcraft skill. Benefit: You learn a number of divine spells of any level you can cast equal to 1 + Wis modifier. The maximum level of any spell you can learn or cast is equal to 1/2 your caster level. You can add the same spell more than once (Putting it into your suite more than one time, meaning you can cast the same spell more than once per encounter). Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take this feat, you add to your spell suite a number of new divine spells of a level you can learn and cast equal to your Wisdom modifier. If your Wisdom modifier permanently increases, you immediateky learn a number of spells equal to the number of Divine Spell Knowledge feats you have taken. Inherited Magic Requires: Cha 10 Benefit: You are able to understand and cast arcane spells. In order to learn or cast a spell, you must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + the spell's level. Your caster level is equal to one-half your character level, rounded down. Whenever you cast a spell that has one or more targets, you may need to make a Spellpower check (d20 + caster level + spell's level + Charisma modifier). The spell's description will determine what defense (if any) the spell targets, and what the effects will be should your Spellpower roll defeat your targets defense. Each encounter, you may cast each spell in your spell suite one time. You may spend an action point to regain any arcane spell cast this encounter. In order to learn a spell, you must take the Inherited Spell Knowledge feat. Spellcraft is a class skill for you. Inherited Spell Knowledge Requires: Inherited Magic, trained in the Spellcraft skill. Benefit: You learn a number of arcane spells of any level you can cast equal to 1 + Cha modifier. The maximum level of any spell you can learn or cast is equal to 1/2 your caster level. You can add the same spell more than once (Putting into your suite more than one time, meaning you can cast the same spell moire than once per encounter). Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take this feat, you add to your spell suite a number of new arcane spells of a level you can learn and cast equal to your Charisma modifier. If your Charisma modifier permanently increases, you immediateky learn a number of spells equal to the number of Inherited Spell Knowledge feats you have taken. Spellbook Knowledge Prerequisite: Spellbook talent, Int 13+ Benefit: You may add a number of spells to your spellbook equal to 1 + Int modifier. The spells added to the spellbook must be of a level you can cast. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time it is selected, add a number of spells to your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier. If your Intelligence modifier increases, you may add a number of spells to your sopellbook equal to the number Spellbook Knowledge feats you have taken. Spellbooks Some arcane casters have access to the Spellbook talent tree. A spellbook is an arcane writing that is filled with instructions on casting spells. In order to put a spell into a spellbook, the character must either research it through Spell Research, or take the Spellbook Knowledge feat. A spell takes up 1 page per level (0th level spells take up 1 page). Spellbooks allow to casters to cast spells without having in thier spell suite. It usually takes a full round action and the expenditure of ana ction point to cast a spell from a spellbook. If the spell being cast from the spellbook has a casting time greater than 1 full round action, then the longer casting time is used.
Tomkin 07-17-07, 06:48 PM	Heh. Another encounter-based magic system. I'm such a trendsetter. (See sig.) Is there any way to change your spells known? If not, then spellcasters will HAVE to keep taking the Spell Knowledge feat over and over again. Even if so, you'll probably need Spell Knowledge at least 2-3 times to last for one encounter - that's 3-4 of your 6 feats taken. Quite a big investment for a caster. What do you do for casting spells between encounters? What about spells that would be broken at 6/encounter? Remember - your average 18th-level wizard taking ASK will have an INT of 20-22. That's six new spells learned. What about those uncommon-but-needed spells like Break Enchantment? Nobody's going to waste a spell slot on that, but when you need it, you need it BAD. This problem persists until you take you Spell Knowledge feat at 18th level and get Wish 6/encounter. And then you have Wish 6/encounter, which is another problem. EDIT: Spellbook solves this to some extent, but remember those are talents you're wasting that could be spent on metamagic. And Wish 6/encounter obsoletes spellbooks anyway. How does Mnemonic Enhancer work? Does it? Also, you mention Save Defenses and talent trees. Is this designed to be used for the Saga system? If so, you should probably note that somewhere.
Darth_Singe 07-17-07, 07:21 PM	Yeah, SAGA is referred to mostly as SECR, as in Saga Edition Core Rulebook. Yeah, I do have a few talents that enable you to switch out spells. Also, each class gets a bonus feat at every even level, so the Spell Knowledge thing isn't really that hard to geta lot of spells fast. As for Wisah 6/Encounter, well, maybe unbalancing, but the costly costs of the cost (heh heh) for casting the spell are way to costly to be casting the spell over and over again. Plus, you can spend an action point to regain spells you have already cast, and In my system the Spell Mastery talent (Wizards Only) allows you to select a few spells and regain them after you have cast them during an encounter. I will post the current drafts of my classes in a few seperate threads.
Tomkin 07-17-07, 08:46 PM	Okay, but you still haven't answered the question of between-encounter spells. What does my cleric do if he wants to heal out of combat?
Darth_Singe 07-17-07, 09:18 PM	Okay, but you still haven't answered the question of between-encounter spells. What does my cleric do if he wants to heal out of combat? I think the rule from SAGA states that you have to wiat at least ten minutes before using it again, but I am not sure.
Tomkin 07-17-07, 10:47 PM	Double post. Nothing to see here...:angelhide
Tomkin 07-17-07, 10:50 PM	Excuse my unfamiliarity with Saga rules, but... is multiclassing allowed? What about PrC's? How could any casting class not take a 4-level Fighter dip under these rules? Even without this, it's still broken. And 10 minutes is too low. As far as balance, well, what balance? What's the difference between preparing spells 5 times each or just casting the same spells over again each encounter? This balance and this difference: Wis 18 +2 (levels) Divine Spell Knowledge twice; 12 spells known. Spells: Bear's endurance Bless Bull's strength Cat's grace Cure serous wounds Divine favor Eagle's wisdom Greater magic weapon Plane shift Righteous might Slay living Spell resistance Let's go over the benefits in detail: All the stat buffs, Bless, Divine Favor, GMW, and Spell Resistance have a duration of over 10 minutes.That means that our cleric can renew them at will under the current rules. Additionally, on the first round of combat he then casts Righteous Might as well. So that's an effective: +9 to attack (+2 Bull's Strength, +2 RM, +3 Divine Favor, +2 GMW, +1 bless, -1 size) +11 to damage (assuming greatsword - why not?) (+3 Bull's Strength, +3 RM, +3 Divine Favor, +2 GMW) +3 to AC (+2 cat's grace, -1 size, +2 RM) SR 22 DR 3/evil 20 bonus HP that never disappear (30 with RM) Two effective save-or-dies, one of which double as an escape route And the all-important cure spell. Yes, I realize that could have been explained without the demonstration, but it was SO FUN to stat out. :D I'm not even going to start on the Wizard1/Fighter4/Eldritch Knight10/Archmage5. Must.. resist... :D Oh, and even if you increase the time between spells, being able to do this before every encounter is still broken. Definitely reduce the spells known a bunch.
Darth_Singe 07-17-07, 11:16 PM	It's balanced by the very nature of the system. You are blowing feats just to be able to cast and learn spells. In the current system, characters blow gold and xp to build staves and wands and rings and things to basically do the same thing, or even prepare the spell multiple times or get scrolls, so honestly, it doesn't change that much. instead of preparing fireball a gazillion times, you get it once (or more based on feats) per encounter. Also, you only gain extra spells and such when your actual ability scoire goes up, so no uber spelling with Headbands of Intellect, blah blah blah. Also, a lot of the D&D game is wacky when converted straight over, shields for instance, raise the reflex defense too darn high at higher levels when combined with other types of bonuses. I have shields grant a deflection bonus instead of a shield bonus, which means they no longer stack with a lot of stuff. Anyways, my magic rules need a patch that allows 1st level spells at caster level 1, otherwise you don't get magic missile until caster level 2. I'll have to Wile Coyote that one!
Tomkin 07-17-07, 11:55 PM	Allow me some juxtaposition here: [at 10th level, a permanent] +9 to attack (+2 Bull's Strength, +2 RM, +3 Divine Favor, +2 GMW, +1 bless, -1 size) +11 to damage (assuming greatsword - why not?) (+3 Bull's Strength, +3 RM, +3 Divine Favor, +2 GMW) +3 to AC (+2 cat's grace, -1 size, +2 RM) SR 22 DR 3/evil 20 bonus HP that never disappear (30 with RM) Two effective save-or-dies, one of which double as an escape route It's balanced by the very nature of the system. You are blowing feats just to be able to cast and learn spells. How on earth could you see that at any level and claim that it's "balanced"? Walking around with basically permanent +9 to attack, +11 to damage SR 22, DR 3/evil, and two save-or-dies per encounter and more hit points than a (non-raging) barbarian is well worth the three feats (Divine Spells, Divine Spell Knowledge x2) that I spent. And you realize that by your own variant rules I still have upwards of five bonus feats and five talents. In the current system, characters blow gold and xp to build staves and wands and rings and things to basically do the same thing, or even prepare the spell multiple times or get scrolls, so honestly, it doesn't change that much. Under the current system, a 10th-level cleric could walk around buffed like that for ten minutes a day, and do diddly-squat for the rest of the time. Under your system, it's basically permanent. Why are you arguing that players should be given these effect for free because they would spend gold on them anyway? By that logic, you should give everyone a +10 bonus to all saves or they'll just buycloaks of resistance. You should give them all +10 to attacks and damage so that they don't buy magic weapons. You know what? They'll STILL buy magic weapons, because +20 to attack and damage is better than +10. What about multiclassing and PrC's? How about time limit between spells? (It may have been eclipsed by the rest of my post, sorry.)
Darth_Singe 07-18-07, 05:27 PM	Again, the spells do need to be changed a bit. Save or die effects work way differently in the SECR, and also, there is the condition track and no 5 foot steps, etc., so certain things are very different, and applying the way certain spells work now as compared to how they would work in the SECR is going to give you an unbalanced view everytime. Also, defense bonuses (especiallyt Reflex defens) goes up very fast (It's equal to 10 + character level + dex modifier + any other modifiers). And, there are no saving throws, the attacker makes a power check or attack roll against the targets defense scores, and if he beats the targets defense score then there is an effect or something happens. For example, let's cast a fireball. in my conversion you can't get fireball untikl caster level 6, so basically at Wizard level 6 if you take Spell Knowledge you can select Fireball. Let's assume you have an intelligence of 17 by level 6. In SECR fireball would be an area attack (20 ft. radius, or 4X4 grid area). You would make a Spellpower check (d20 + Spell Level + Caster Level + Int Modifier) or in this case, d20 + 3 (Spell Level) + 6 (Caster Level) + 3 (Int Modifier)or d20+12. You would then make your power check, and compare the result to all creatures within the area of the spell's effect. If you beat thier Reflex defense, you would deal 6d6 points of damage, and if you failed to defeat thier reflex defense, they take half that damage. An average 6th level fighter with Str 17 attacking with a greatsword could have the following stats: (Base Attack +6, +3 Strength, Weapon Focus, Greatsword, Weapon Specialization) so Melee Attack +10, Greatsword, Dmg: 2d6+11 (Twice Strength Modifier, plus 1/2 character level damage bonus, +2 for Weapon Specialization). It could be a lot more powerful given certain talents and feats. I will again iterate (say Reiterate) that the way some spells function and the mutitude of bonus types that stack are phenomenal in the D&D game, because it is based on collecting stuff to get more powerful instead of learning to do stuff to get more powerful, whereas if you change many of the bonus types to the same thing, or stop stacking them for example, you get a more balanced game, hence what a lot of SECR did. I for one think it is the same thing to be able to cast the same spell over and over again each encounter 9so long as your material components hold up) is really derned close to buying a wand or staff of the same thing and doing that over and over and over again.
Darth_Singe 07-18-07, 07:51 PM	Also, in your example above, a cleric with Wisdom 18 with Divine Spell Knowledge selected twice, would only know 9 spells. The first time you taske the feat you gain 1 + Wis Modifier, and each additional time you take the feat you gain spells equal to your Wis modifier. If your Wisdom modifier is permanently increased, you gain spells equal to the number of times you have selected Divine Spell Knowledge. Also, again, it's all about the bonus types. As for the Buff spells, because they can be cast over and over again, there would be no reason to have them last as long, so I would probably give them a casting time of swift and have them last a single turn, or a casting time of standard action and have them last one minute each. I haven't gotten to spells yet, but I am gonna get there.
Tomkin 07-18-07, 10:52 PM	18 wisdom to begin with. Add 2 - 1 at 4th level, 1 at 8th level. That makes 20 wisdom. So 11 slots. My point is the same. I for one think it is the same thing to be able to cast the same spell over and over again each encounter 9so long as your material components hold up) is really derned close to buying a wand or staff of the same thing and doing that over and over and over again. Wow. Yes, it's exactly the same except that it doesn't cost money. Fireball every encounter is equal to a wand of fireball, you say? Well, said want is worth 11,250 gp. Guess what? You just gave that wizard, in your own words, "derned close to" 11,250 gp. I am a 6th level wizard. I have Int 18. I can cast 2 third-level spells, so I buy a wand of fireball. That costs me 11,250 gp. I am a 6th level wizard with 18 int in your system. I can cast fireball a lot. Therefore, as you said, I don't need a wand, and I spend the 11,250 gp on bracers of armor +1, an amulet of natural armor +1, a cloak of resistance +1, a headband of intellect +2... See what I mean?
Darth_Singe 07-18-07, 11:17 PM	you're going back to the multitude of bonuses things again. with all the different bonus types in d&d (morale, inherent, enhancement, shield, deflection, divine, etc etc etc) things will get out of hand very fast. That's why many things in SECR don't stack like in other versions, and some bonus types simply don't exist. That is an inherent issue I have with the current state of the D&D game. It's basically all about getting stuff to beef up your character as opposed to good roleplaying, or gaining skill to do the things. If you haven't read or are unfamiliar with the entire SECR, maybe you should familiarize yourself with it. Again, you are looking at a part of a conversion, and applying an unconverted portion of the rules to a small portion of converted rules, so honestly we are both wasting our time arguing this point. In a completely converted SECR environment, the game is balanced, in a 1/3 SECR, 2/3 D&D environment, it is not balanced. But I will say this to those who are unfamiliar witrh the SECR: Defenses scale a lot faster and are a lot stronger than attack forms, so even with all your buffing and such, it will still be very easy for an enemy to destroy or pose a challenge for him. You see, this is where the unfamiliarity thing kicks in also. Even the entire way the xp system and challenge level systems work are different. in SECR, if an enemy has a CL of 12, that means a single 12th level pc will find the encounter challenging. four 12th level pc's (as in the old system) will simply blow away the NPC.
Oldtimer 07-19-07, 06:46 AM	in SECR, if an enemy has a CL of 12, that means a single 12th level pc will find the encounter challenging. four 12th level pc's (as in the old system) will simply blow away the NPC. No, that was brought up on a thread recently (when Web Enhancement 2 was published) and found to be a mistake. It's still balanced against a party of four.
Matrix Sorcica 07-22-07, 11:03 AM	Here' s a very rough outline of something I posted at ENWorld. It might solve some of the issues you have raised above. Magic: My non patented shot at a magic system. In very short, pick a feat named Gifted or such. This allows you to make Use Magic skill checks and so on a la Force Sensitive. Now, you can learn spells. You can learn spells of a level equal to half your Mage level (round up). Take the feat Magic Training. This feat is on the Mage class' bonus feat list! Each time you pick it, you gain spell picks equal to Spellcasting Stat +1. Use these picks to learn a new spell or another use of a known spell. Spells cost half their level in picks to learn or use more than once. 0-level spells costs ½ pick. Spells recharge as per Saga. However, any and all 'out of combat spells' (buff, healing, fly, invisibility and so on) cast out of an encounter is considered spent when the next encounter begins! This is a bit of metagaming to control unlimited healing, buffs, etc. If you have two slots of healing, you can use two heals between encounters, but not more, and when the next encounter begins, the slots are not available. Feats can help out here, as well as APs. Maybe feats can allow swapping between spells? Meta Magic is done via talents. Each metamagic talent chosen allows the use of one use of metamagic per minute. Each talent can be taken multiple times, to be usable more than once per minute (or stacking). Half level limit for learning spells apply. I was thinking that using meta magic would be a full round action. I'm thinking a 20th level mage could have something like 120 spell picks (stat +6 giving 7 picks times 17 feats). If this is not enough, consider using picks to by 'spell level slots' instead of just the additional use of a spell.
Matrix Sorcica 07-23-07, 05:00 AM	BTW, Singe - I think you need to reword some elements of your magic talents/feats. The way is goes now, you have a caster level equal to half your level. You can choose spells equal to half your caster level! This means you can cast 3rd level spells at 12th level and 5th level spells at 20th. Is this intentional? I have to say, even if it's not intentional, it makes for some very very cool lower powered spellcasting - sort of like the d20 Modern power level (going only to 5th level spells), just spread over 20 levels. And when it's encounter based I don't even think spellcasters will lack behind. :)