Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gilgiga of the Hunt 04-23-06, 10:38 PM	Ok, so this has probably been done a few times, but here's my crack at it. This is more or less a rough draft, so if anyone wants to help edit it feel free. New Skills: Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Transmutation (all non-stated; trained only) Having a rank in any of the above skills allows you to cast spells from each skills respective school of magic. Check: Allows you to cast spells, each spell has it's own DC, most spells use the following table to determine DC, certian more complex spells or impressivly simple ones use a different DC as stated in the spell description. Spell Level/DC 0/11 1/13 2/15 3/17 4/19 5/21 6/23 7/25 8/27 9/29 Falure results in the spell not resolving. Action: As the spell time Special: Some situations make casting a spell more difficult then usual the increase in DC is as follows. Situation/DC Damaged during casting/+damage delt taking continuous damage/+half of last damage dealt distracted by nondamaging spell/+ distracting spell save DC-10 Vigorous Motion/+5 (riding a horse/bouncy wagon/ small boat in rough water) Violent motion/+10 (galoping horse, on deck of a storm tossed ship) Amazingly Violent Motion/+15 (earthquake, hurricane) Entangled/ +5 Grappleing or pinned/ +10 Bad weater/ +2 Very Bad weather/ +5 Unnatural Weather/ +DC of unnatural weather-10 This effect replaces the Concentration skill. Synergy: If you have 10 or more ranks in Spellcraft you gain a +2 Synergy bonus to spell checks. If you have 5 or more ranks in a School you gain a +2 bonus to spellcraft checks relateing to spells in that school. What does that all mean. Well 1: Casters using a skill system don't have spell slots, instead they use the skills, so well they can cast all day, which is a good thing for joe bob the hedge mage, or royal magictechs. The problem comes in when you look at the adventuring spellcaster. Due to the nature of magic in general they have a huge edge over non caster classes. Solution: most spells would need come down in power level, some more then others. Reworking problem spells is the majority of what I've been doing. I've found that freeing up spell slots alows casters to cary more noncombat utility spells, which is good 'cuz those sorts of spells generally promote creativity in problem solving. Spells casted in combat generally need to be tweaked. The most common solution is to reduce damage, having Searing Ray deal 2d6 damage is a lot less abusive then 4d6. As for buff spells increasing their casting time to a whole round prevents the whole party from just going in 10 feet tall and roaring. As for healing, this has proven the tricky bit, the only solution so far is to not allow magical healing on a person more then X times a day. As for what X is, I'm thinking the wounded persons level sounds safe. 2: Disruption is a lot more reliable tactic then it once was under this system. So happy countering. I'm considering this a good thing for now. Ok, here's the net result on what a spell casting class looks like now. The Guildmage (d6) <Insert Flavor Here/ coppy paste it from Wizard + add campaign specfics> Skills per level 4+ intelegence mod Skills: Craft, Descipher Script, Knowledge (any and all), Profession, Spellcraft, Spell Schools (any two) BAB: Poor Saves: Good Will, Poor Fort and Ref Spellcasting: Guildmages cast arcane spells, and their DCs and maximum level spells learnable are baised on intelegence Special: 1st: 0th level spells, 1st level spells, Scribe Scroll, Guild Casting 4th: 2nd Level Spells 6th: 3rd Level Spells 8th: 4th level spells 10th: 5th level spells 12th: 6th level spells 14th: 7th level spells 16th: 8th level spells 18th: 9th level spells Spells known: As Sorcerer Guild Casting: Due to the Guildmages training in the Arcane Halls all are at least familar with spells outside of their specialized schools and can put cross class ranks into the spell skills for those schools. So there's the generic class, variants could have specfic skills built into their class and what not. So, here's some of my takes on a few problem spells: 1st: Enlarge Person As normal but DC is +1 and duration is only 1 round per level True Strike: Casting time is now a full round Charm Person: DC+2 and if a person passes a save vs Charm Person, all Charm spells cast by the caster fail against the target for the next day 2nd: Searing Ray: As usual but instead only deals 2d6 damage Summon Swarm: DC +2 Invisiblity: Requires a 5 min cool down time every time someone becomes visible again 3rd: Hold Person: Every time the spell is saved against, that person is safe from the Hold Persons from the same caster for a number of rounds equal to the targets hit dice Fireball: Damage = 1/2 level d8 Lighting Bolt: Damage = 1/2 level d8 Haste: +2 DC, requires a 5 min cool down for each target after haste wears off 4th: Ice Storm: deals 4d6 instead Shout: Deals 5d4 instead Phantasmal Killer: DC +2 Taget is safe from the spell for the rest of the day if save is passed 5th: Feeblemind: Target is safe from further Feebleeminds for the next 24 hours 6th: Circle of Death: Casting time is now 3 rounds 7th: Finger of Death: Passing save protects the target for the next day 8th: Maze: Casting time is now 2 rounds Otto's Irresistible Dance: DC +2 Any other help is greatly accepted.
FlameLover 04-23-06, 11:31 PM	I like the system, but would change things slightly. Base DCs I feel yours are a bit low. Assuming they'll have max ranks in all the skills (this assumes you give them more skill points. 6+int bonus sounds good to me) and items, etc. i'd make them 0 - 10 1 - 13 2 - 16 3 - 19 4 - 22 5 - 25 6 - 28 7 - 31 8 - 34 9 - 37 Now here's the key to your "casting all day" problem. Every sucessful casting increases the DC of future spells of that level by +3. So if you cast a level 1 spell, to cast another it costs the same as casting your first level 2, etc. I havn't run the figures yet, but here's a quick comparison. Assuming a level 20 a wizard has cast 3 spells of each spell level, the DCs will be: 0 - 19 1 - 22 2 - 25 3 - 28 4 - 31 5 - 34 6 - 37 7 - 40 8 - 43 9 - 46 Those are just my takes on it. It still feels a bit vancian this way, whether that's good or not depends on your personal preference. I'd love to see a cross between this and Psionics though. Having augmentable spells that increase the DC, etc. But that won't happen for a long time. The closest i've seen is the Arcanist from Iron Heroes by Malhavoc Press, but that has some issues itself. And ofcourse this system, even with my above higher DCs, make spell casters even more powerful. The best solution to this IMO though is to limit all casters to level 6 or below spells (like a Bard) and make the DCs from 0 to 6, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40 respectivley. And make it +1 DC for every spell, regard-less of level, cast. This has a more spell-points feel to it, and makes more logical sense.
Gilgiga of the Hunt 04-23-06, 11:39 PM	Acctually I had this grounded in a smaller number system I was running experiments in. It was a 1-10 for every skill (Not just the spells) I abandoned it for the easier to use d20 system, seeing as my players have most of their experience there. But the 1-10 system had quite a few variable spells. In fact thinking about it, most of them were, generally they came in two flavors beating the DC types for extra effect and rise the DC for effect. I like that increasing DCs thing, that's a really nice edge. Perhaps, just retooling the whole spell list is an idea.
FlameLover 04-24-06, 02:48 AM	Ofcourse the problem with any skill-based spell system is that the skill system just wasn't built to handle it. Assume a caster will have +30 skill items for each of there most-used schools, and you've already go craziness. Because of this any skill-based spell system is inherently flawed. Your ideas are good, and one of the better takes i've seen on this, but i'd never play with it because of this. Same problem that Truename magic has - basing it on the skill system means you need to have super-high DCs to be "balanced" for those who focus in it. Yet the whole point of making it skill based is so that anyone can learn the magic - and the high DCs make that impossible for them. You can give this system a shot in your game, but I don't think it'll hold up to min/maxing at all. Really the only way to "fix" spellcasting is to re-do the whole gosh-darn thing. And that's something I doubt even Lotus Crane would have the time to tackle.
Millennium 04-24-06, 05:32 PM	The biggest problem I see here is that you've made each school of magic a separate skill, yet the sample class you provide only gets 4+INT skill points per level. In order to play an effective caster, you'd need to either hyper-specialize in a single school at the expense of all the others, suffer severe skill-deficiency in anything other than magic, or level-dip as a caster and then take levels in rogue or something.
FlameLover 04-24-06, 06:40 PM	I was assuming that the sample class got bonus skill points to just spend on magic or something, but I guess not. Giving a magic class say 4 bonus skill points per level to spend on only magic schools (x4 at first level) you force them to either sacrifice 3 of there normal skill points to stay general, or they can just focus on 4 and use the other 4+int on other interesting skills (in this case, definitley Spellcraft).
Gilgiga of the Hunt 04-24-06, 08:16 PM	The biggest problem I see here is that you've made each school of magic a separate skill, yet the sample class you provide only gets 4+INT skill points per level. In order to play an effective caster, you'd need to either hyper-specialize in a single school at the expense of all the others, suffer severe skill-deficiency in anything other than magic, or level-dip as a caster and then take levels in rogue or something. Hyper-specializing is an interesting side effect, and a balancing fact that I forgot to point out in the first post, sorry about that. It helps handle a lot of things by having a limited spell list like that. Makes a Conjuerer and Transmuter a lot more potent then most other mages is a catch however. So, I'm thinking this probably wouldn't work in most D&D groups (including ones I've been in) where the players have way more controll over what items they can get. Whereas in a game where the DM has far more controll over items (akin to the ones I've been in recently) then the skill system works better. For example if Magic skill increasing items were rare and impossible to fabricate, so mages would go at great lengths to gain one then it would work better. But that's putting more responsablity on GMs which I know doesn't always work in all groups.
rhammill 04-28-06, 09:59 PM	I use a combination skill/spell point system. Everybody theoretically has the ability to cast spells. The relevent skill is Sorcery and can be used untrained, although the level of spell available is tied into the number of ranks in Sorcery. Sorcery spells are limited to basic reshaping of magic (energy missile, for example, is similar to magic missile, but can be force, fire, electricity, cold, etc.) Wizards are a prestige class and have the ability to cast more complex spells using a focus (wand, rod, staff, spellbook or scroll, etc.) Divine spellcasting uses the same mechanics, but they have Piety Points, and they can spend their piety point to add ranks to their divine spellcasting ability. Note that the other classes have gone through a good amount of modification as well, and they can all get pretty powerful... *********** Spell points are the basic force used to cast spells. Each individual has spell points based on their level and constitution: At first level: (3 + Con modifier) x 4 (+4 if human)) Each additional level: 3 + Con modifier (+1 if human) Casting spells temporarily drains energy from the caster. Whenever the caster’s spell point total is equal to or less than 50% of their total spell point total they become fatigued. When their spell point total is less than 25% the caster becomes exhausted. If a character becomes fatigued or exhausted by other means, their spell point total drops to the same level. Resting for 1 hour restores 1/3 of a caster’s spell points. If they are exhausted they become fatigued. A character can rest for 2 hours to regain up to 2/3 of their total spell points. The remaining 1/3 of spell points can only be regained by a complete night’s sleep (8 hours). Each interruption during the rest period adds 1 hour to the amount of rest needed. Table 6: Maximum Spell Level Skill Ranks.....Maximum Spell Level 0.................0 level spells (sorcery or miracles only) 1.................1st level spells 2.................2nd level spells 3 4.................3rd level spells 5 6.................4th level spells 7 8.................5th level spells 9 10...............6th level spells 11 12...............7th level spells 13 14...............8th level spells 15 16...............9th level spells Casting a spell requires a Spellcraft check of the appropriate type. 3d6 + Ranks + ability modifier + additional spell points + extra modifiers. Casting a spell expends spell points. The cost of the spell is equal to the level of the spell. 0-level spells cost 1 spell point to cast. When attempting to cast a spell, the caster can choose to spend additional spell points to increase the chance of success. These points must be declared prior to the Spellcraft check. The base DC for a spell is 15 + 3 per level of the spell. Table 15: Base Cost of Spells Level.....Base DC.....Spell Points.....Base Dispel DC 0...............15...............1...... .........15 1...............18...............1...... .........19 2...............21...............2...... .........23 3...............24...............3...... .........28 4...............27...............4...... .........33 5...............30...............5...... .........38 6...............33...............6...... .........43 7...............36...............7...... .........48 8...............39...............8...... .........53 9...............42...............9...... .........58 CALCULATING DISPEL DC It is often necessary to know the DC of an active spell, such as when attempting to dispel magic. DC for spell level + rank of caster. If the rank of the caster is unknown, calculate based on the minimum rank required by the spell +1d6-1 You cannot spend spell points to increase your chance or dispelling or overcoming another spell. The rank and the spell level are the only factors in determining the inherent power of a spell. Additional spell points spent to increase the variables simply increases or focuses the effects. Spending spell points to increase your chance of success is not increasing the chance of success of the spell, it is increasing the chance of success for casting the spell. SPELL LEVELS Each spell has an associated level. That level determines the difficulty in casting the spell, as well as the effects of the spell. Each spell has attributes and variables which can be modified by spending additional spell points. SPELL VARIABLE EFFECTS Most spells have variable effects in one or more categories. If there is a variable the spell will show the base value before a slash, and an increment after the slash. For example: Damage: 3d6/1d6 Duration: 3 rounds/1 round Range: 100 ft./10 ft. Target: 1 creature/1 creature The base value (the value before the slash) refers to the effects of the spell if it is cast for its base spell point value (1 spell point per level of the spell). The values after the slash can be purchased for an additional 1 spell point per increment. If you want to increase several increments (such as range and damage), or several increment steps (such as increasing the duration by 3 rounds), you spend additional spell points at the rate of 1 spell point per increment. The maximum number of increments that can be changed in any single variable is 5, excluding damage. Damage caps as listed in DM guide. The total number of variables that can be changed (including damage dice) in any single spell is equal to the spellcaster’s rank + spell level. Increasing variable effects does not increase the DC of casting the spell. It only increases the cost of the spell in spell points. Spending spell points to increase variables does not add a bonus to the Spelllcraft check. ALTERING SPELL ATTRIBUTES In addition to increasing increments by spending spell points, you can alter the attributes of the spell. These changes do not alter the level of the spell (which affects saving throws, spell resistance, etc.). Unlike variables, altering attributes does increase the DC of casting the spell. (this basically replaces the metamagic feats). DC 3 Alterations Enlarge Spell: Double range (base and increment) of a spell with a base range of close, medium or long. Extend Spell: Double the duration (base and increment) except for spells with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent. Silent Spell: The spell can be cast with no verbal components. Still Spell: The spell can be cast with no somatic components. Widen Spell: The area (burst, emanation, line or spread)(base and increment) of a spell is doubled. DC 6 Alterations Empower Spell: All variable numeric effects of the spell are increased by one-half. DC 9 Alterations Maximise Spell: All variable numeric effects of the spell are maximized. DC 12 Alterations Quicken Spell: Cast spell as a free action. Only one quickened spell may be cast per round. It does not provoke and attack of opportunity. CONCENTRATION To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you’re casting, you must make a Concentration check or lose the spell. The more distracting the interruption and the higher the level of the spell you are trying to cast, the higher the DC is. If you fail the check, you suffer the effects of spell failure. Injury: If while trying to cast a spell you take damage, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the level of the spell you’re casting). If you fail the check, you suffer the effects of spell failure. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between when you start and when you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action). If you are taking continuous damage half the damage is considered to take place while you are casting a spell. You must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + 1/2 the damage that the continuous source last dealt + the level of the spell you’re casting). If the last damage dealt was the last damage that the effect could deal then the damage is over, and it does not distract you. Repeated damage does not count as continuous damage. Spell: If you are affected by a spell while attempting to cast a spell of your own, you must make a Concentration check or suffer the effects of spell failure. If the spell affecting you deals damage, the DC is 10 + points of damage + the level of the spell you’re casting. If the spell interferes with you or distracts you in some other way, the DC is the spell’s saving throw DC + the level of the spell you’re casting. For a spell with no saving throw, it’s the DC that the spell’s saving throw would have if a save were allowed. COUNTERSPELLS AND SPELL TURNING Counterspells are spells which are cast during combat to defend against the spells of an enemy spellcaster. A counterspell is a simple opposed skill check. To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action (page 160). In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. (You may still move your speed, since ready is a standard action.) Counterspell If the target of your spell tries to cast a spell, you make a Spellcraft check (DC 10 + the spell’s DC) to try to determine the level of the spell cast. If the check succeeds you successfully identify the level of the opponent’s spell. You can use any of the three Spellcraft skills to make this check, but if you do not make the check against the general Spellcraft skill you can only identify and counter spells of a discipline in which you have ranks (Arcane or Divine). Note: sorcerers cannot identify a wizard spell without using the general Spellcraft ability. They can identify sorcery spells cast by a wizard. You then make an opposed Spellcraft check to cast a counterspell. This is a standard Spellcraft check that must be of a spell level greater than or equal to the opponent’s spell. No specific spell has to be selected, and you may spend additional spell points if desired to improve your Spellcraft check. Your Spellcraft check must exceed the opponent’s Spellcraft check. If successful, the opponent’s spell is countered. Spell Turning If the DC of the counterspell (spell level + caster’s rank) is 2 or more points higher than the DC of the opponent’s spell, then the spell may be turned. If the total of your opposed Spellcraft roll to counter the spell is 10 or more points higher than your opponent’s the spell is turned back on the caster. For every 2 points that your spell’s DC exceeds your opponent’s reduce the required amount by 1. For example, if the DC of your spell is 4 points above your opponent’s when you attempt to counter your spell, then your opposed Spellcraft check only needs to exceed his by 9 points to turn the spell. MULTIPLE CASTERS It is possible for more than one spellcaster to work together to cast a Wizard spell or a divine miracle (not a sorcery spell). Each additional caster adds ½ their ranks + ability modifier (rounded down). All other modifiers apply only to the first caster. SPELL FAILURE Any time a spell is cast; there is a chance of failure. If the Spellcraft check fails, then consult the following tables to determine the consequences. The effects of failure are cumulative. Table 17: Effects of Spell Failure (no Focus) Failure by...... Effect Less than 2....Spell is discharged 3-4...............Make Fort save or become fatigued. Make Will save or lose 1 Piety point.* 5-6..............Take 1d4 points of damage/level of spell. Lose 1 Piety point (no save).* 7-8..............All within 10’ take 1d4 points of damage/level of spell. Lose 2 Piety Points (no save).* 9+...............Fortitude save or take 1d4 points temporary Con damage; If Con damage taken is equal to 4 points, then a second Fortitude save (at lowered Con score) or 1 point of Con damage is permanent. Lose 3 Piety points (no save). Loss of Concentration......... Roll 1d8 to determine the effect. There is no chance for fatigue or loss of Piety. *Loss of Piety points only occurs is the failure is for a divine miracle. If a focus is used, then the effects of failure may be reduced. See spell focuses for more details. Table 18: Effects of Spell Failure (with Permanent Focus) Failure by.........Effect Less than 4......Spell is discharged 5-6.................Take 1d4 points of damage/level of spell. 7-8+...............All within 10’ take 1d4 points of damage/level of spell. Focus must make save or be destroyed. Loss of Concentration......Roll 1d8 to determine the effect.
Ricardo Martinez Garza 04-30-06, 12:49 AM	Mhhh, as a side comment, does anyone has seen Guardias of Order Advanced d20 Magic? It has a very nice skill based arcane/divine magic system.