Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rydi123 09-20-06, 05:33 PM	So, here it is. Acrobatics (Dex/str) --Balance --Climb --Tumble Athletics (Str/con) --Climb --Jump --Swim Awareness (Wis/int) --Listen --Spot Craft (Int/wis) --Appraise --Create Deception (Cha/wis) --Bluff --Intimidate (Str/cha) --Disguise Escape Artist (Dex/int) Focus (Wis/con) --Concentration --Autohypnosis Handle Animal (Cha/wis) --Handle Animal --Ride (Dex/wis) Perform (Cha/wis) --playing an instrument (Dex/cha) Persuasion (Cha/wis) --Diplomacy --Gather Information Psicraft (Int/wis) --Internal (Manifesting stat) --External (Int) Scrutinize (Int/wis) --Search --Sense Motive (Wis/int) --detect forgery Spellcraft (Int/wis) --Internal (Casting stat) --External Stealth (Dex/wis) --Hide --Move Silently Survival (Wis/int) --Survival --Dungeoneering Use Device (Cha/int) --Magic --Psionic --Other Knowledges (Int) --Astrology and Astronomy --Arcana --Architecture and Engineering --Business and Finance --Geography and Cultures --History and Government --Linguistics and Cryptography --Medicine and Herbology --Mechanics and Repair --Planes and Cosmology --Psionics --Religion and Philosophy Professions (Int/wis or Wis/int) Synergy COMING SOON Basics of the new system The majority of the skills have been placed into skill groups. These groups are modified by the first Attribute in parenthesis, and by the second to a maximum of +2. Some of the sub-skills have different attribute combinations allowed; in these cases use whichever is most beneficial to the character. Ranks in skills are purchased by placing a skill point into the skill group (or 2, if cross-class), up to the number desired (lvl limits sill apply). The ranks in a given sub-skill are the same as the ranks in the skill group, unless the sub-skill is a cross class skill, in which case the score can be at most [1/2 (character Lvl +3)]. A character qualifies to have a Skill group counted as in-class if any of the skills in that group are in-class. If a character takes a class that makes a formerly cross-class sub-skill in class, the skill then becomes equal to the group skill in ranks (note that group skills are not upgraded if originally purchased as cross-class). A brief example: A Paladin has Persuade as a class skill (as diplomacy is a class skill), and at first level places 4 ranks in it. The Paladin’s Diplomacy ranks are equal to ranks in persuade, but Gather information is a cross-class skill, so it is limited to 2 ranks. If, at second lvl, the Paladin were to take a lvl of Rogue (gaining the skill as in class), Gather information would then be equal to the Persuade score. [Reasoning: This allows a character’s skill points to go further, but also prevents the overlap of roles that would otherwise result from a combined skill system such as this. For example, the above Paladin is a good talker, and can get information from people more easily than a fighter, but a standard Rogue will still be better at pulling information from NPC’s overall. This also allows for better character development, since most classes will have left over skill points to place into professions, knowledges, crafts and performance. The second attribute bonus was added in for three reasons: 1. It allows for a more rich idea of skills, as in RL skills actually are modified by multiple factors. 2. It replaces some of the lost synergy bonuses that were previously available. 3. It makes low lvl characters a bit more capable.] Knowledges are separate from the other skills, and gain only Int as a bonus, but they give many Synergy bonuses. Professions become much more important with this new system as well. They can be used for tasks involving the profession when there are no other skills to cover the activity in question, and since several skills were removed, there are more areas left uncovered for Professions to fill. The synergies from the PHB no longer apply. New synergies are coming soon. Specifics --Appraise skill- Gone! Use Profession Merchant or Thief, an appropriate craft skill, or an appropriate knowledge skill. --Acrobatics/Athletics- Both include the Climb skill. This is because there are many times when climbing is a more Dex based activity. The DM should call for whichever role is most appropriate, and increase the difficulty level for those characters that wish to use the incorrect skill. --Craft-This skill now has an Appraise element added into it, usable only on objects related to the Craft. --Deception- The Disguise portion only works for basic outfits and ruses. For complex disguises, use an appropriate Profession. --Forgery- Gone! Use Profession Scribe or any other appropriate Profession. --Heal- Gone! Now Knowledge Medicine. --Perform- Playing an instrument involves much more dexterity than singing music or creating music, therefore the attribute change was made to reflect this. --Psi/spellcraft- This skill has an external element used in determining spells and effects not originating from the character using the skill, and an internal element that represents the character using their own spells casting techniques. This is similar to rules already present in the Epic book. --Sleight of Hand- Gone! Use Profession Thief or Magician, or just make a Dex check. --Use Device- This skill includes psi, arcane, and anything else WotC decides to think up (use incarnum device, use hamster device, use etc. device…) --Use Rope- Gone! If you want to use rope, use a profession that ties things up. Sailor, Policeman, Yakuza all work just fine. so, the only real problem i have now is that a few of the skills are left just hanging without a group. escape artist and survival are especially problematic, as they deserve a skill not a profession, and knowledges just wouldnt work for them. but other than that and the synergies i think i'm pretty much done. what you guys think?
Amseriah 09-21-06, 01:16 AM	I like it, it seems like a fairly stable system and would allow for people to actually have a profession skill or two, except well I know, an adventurer that has training in a job is a radical idea, but I think that it could be a worthwhile experiment. Btw, I like the concept of profession yakuza, I may need to take that.
rydi123 09-21-06, 10:06 AM	thank you. any input is appreciated.
Darth Sephiroth 09-21-06, 11:26 PM	Doesn't Forgery also cover detecting forgeries as well, if so that use should be under Scrutinize as well.
Zyrusticae 09-22-06, 10:15 PM	This is a really nice system! (Now, to convert it for use with BESM d20...) I'm not sure about survival/escape artist, myself. Those two are pretty broad skills, and pretty damn useful when the situation warrants them. I think they're alright as they are.
Jodjod 09-25-06, 01:34 AM	Intimidate should be under Persuasion, not Deception. And it should be modified by Charisma only, with bonuses based on size. I can see you reasoning behind strength...but it's actually to do with size and physical appearances more than how many brick walls you can punch through. Use Rope and Sleight of Hand come under a similiar sort of grouping. Make it "Tricks" or somesuch. Add in Use Device (Mechanical) and make it encompass Open Lock.
rydi123 09-26-06, 01:58 AM	Doesn't Forgery also cover detecting forgeries as well, if so that use should be under Scrutinize as well. i'm extremely glad you pointed that out. Indeed it should, and good idea. i'll get around to correcting that in the thread soon. This is a really nice system! (Now, to convert it for use with BESM d20...) I'm not sure about survival/escape artist, myself. Those two are pretty broad skills, and pretty damn useful when the situation warrants them. I think they're alright as they are. good luck with that. BESM (the original) had great ideas, but the system was aweful. if i remember correctly, because of the way they did the dice/skill system, anyone that made a powerful character was pretty much gauranteed success except on a botch. is the D20 better? Intimidate should be under Persuasion, not Deception. And it should be modified by Charisma only, with bonuses based on size. I can see you reasoning behind strength...but it's actually to do with size and physical appearances more than how many brick walls you can punch through. Use Rope and Sleight of Hand come under a similiar sort of grouping. Make it "Tricks" or somesuch. Add in Use Device (Mechanical) and make it encompass Open Lock. I actually did something similar to what you are suggesting on locks and disarming/making traps. I made it Knowledge Mechanics and Repair. i might do the Tricks category. it will take some thought, because i dont really even think use rope is useful enough to be counted as a separate skill. sleight of hand is useful, and needs something to go with it, but i am not sure if rope use fits the bill, especially since the primary people that have use rope are people that probably don't have high slight of hand (sailors, baggage handlers, crafters, police, kidnappers, thugs, etc). intimidate is a hard skill. i didnt put it under persuasion because that represents mostly being nice and accomodating in order to get your way, or at least not overtly hostile. the deception skill involves manipulating peoples perceptions and emotions, which is really what you do when intimidating people. as far as the attribute thing, i dont really think d&d has a good way of fully representing it. i think that charisma certainly should be important, but what about a tarasque, or a titan? i'm not frightened because of their forceful personality. one could say maybe add size as a modifier, but then what about the creepy things like undead or bugs? and i actually can think of cases where i would be frightened of something on strength alone (if i see someone pick up an anvil and chuck it at me, im going to be running most likely). i also feel that the characters that should be most intimidating are grizzled warriors, not slimy rogues, but with charisma being primary for the skill, that isn't the way it most often goes. so, i just ended going up with what met my needs rather than finding an exact fit. thanks everyone for your insight and interest! still open to any other suggestions.
Jodjod 09-26-06, 02:34 AM	Fair points. Creepy creatures do usually have racial bonuses to intimidate, mind. I totally agree about the whole grizzly warrior vs. slimy rogue, but then you'd think that wizards would be the type to know everything about anything, but their low skill points tends to prevent that. I blame Monte Cook. ;)
rydi123 09-26-06, 08:07 PM	monte cook is in fact a good target for all the ills of the world. i blame him for famine, disease, and corrupt politicians. you know, now that i think of it, there should be some sort of situational modifier to the intimidate skill. imagine if you will, 3 different individuals making an intimidate check: 1) a barbarian, wearing the skulls of slain enemies, wielding a greatsword, and standing alone on a battlefield with corpses piled all around. he begins walking towards you... 2) a wizard/psion with energy flaring from every orifice of thier body, a brilliant flash, and then... nothing. a mile wide crater, in which all matter has simply dissapeared, except the grinning wizard, who is approaching you. 3) a rogue, known far and wide as a hired killer without equal, remorseless and efficient, and always leaves a rose on his victims. He has a red flower in hand and is approching you with a menacing smile. who will scare you more? from whom would you run away first/fastest? well, by the system #3 probably wins, because he has more skill points to put into intimidate, and likely a higher charisma as well. The barbarian probably comes in second, with the wizard taking up the rear. but in reality, it would be the exact opposite. there needs to be some way of applying a situational bonus to the Intimidate rolls. even the rogue isn't getting the full impact he should in the above example, because his reputation as a killer goes pretty much unnoted, and the subtle hint of death that is the flower doesn't get factored in either.
Szatany 09-30-06, 09:19 AM	My thoughts on knowledge skills. I've been thinking about it and I believe that since you cut down number of skills considerably, same should happen to knowledges (perhaps it should even happen in original game, but anyway). Here's my jab at the issue: Skill - what old skills are in it (what it also covers) Knowledge: Engineering - Kn: Architecture & Eng., Disable Device, Open Lock Knowledge: Magic - Kn: Arcana, Spellcraft/Psicraft Knowledge: Medicine - Heal (herbs, plants, biology, anatomy, determining living creature's type) Knowledge: Religion - Kn: Religion, Kn: Planes (philosophy) Knowledge: Science - Craft: Alchemy (astronomy, math, basic physics and chemistry) Knowledge: Societies - Kn: History, Kn: Geography, Kn: Nobility & Royalty, Speak Language, Decipher Script (business, trade routes, governements, heraldry) Knowledge: Nature is partially under Medicine. Rest of it and Knowedge: Dungeoneering I'd put under Survival.
Greg K 09-30-06, 10:53 AM	As I like more variety of skills, I personally would not use it and hope it doesn't become official in 4e. However, it looks fine and, if I recall correctly, is similar (if not identical) to Iron Heroes cascading skills (which I didn't care for either). Regarding the hanging skills: Escape Artist and Sleight of hand: Either keep them as a seperate skills or create a new category Thievery which might include Escape Artist, Open Locks, Sleight of Hand Survival : useful enought to keep seperate Use Rope, I say ditch it! Let Use Rope default to Climb and appropriate professon skills such as Profession (Sailor).
fatal error 09-30-06, 11:58 AM	Iron Heroes uses: Academia: Appraise, Concentration, Decipher Script, Heal, Knowledge, Speak Langugage. Agility: Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble. Athletics: Climb, Jump, Swim. Mysticism: Concentration, Decipher Script, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device. Perception: Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot. Robbery: Disable Device, Forgery, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand. Social: Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate. Stealth: Hide, Move Silently. Theatrics: Bluff, Disguise, Perform, Sleight of Hand. Wilderness Lore: Handle Animal, Ride, Survival, Use Rope. It also converts class skills into class skill groups, but you can take cross class skills individually at the normal rate of class skills (1:1 and with a cap of level +3). Which I think is better than your system. I think you are overcautious of skill monkeys being overshadowed, but I don't see that happening with Iron Heroes' system. Anyway, just some food for thought.
rydi123 09-30-06, 06:31 PM	It also converts class skills into class skill groups, but you can take cross class skills individually at the normal rate of class skills (1:1 and with a cap of level +3). Which I think is better than your system. I think you are overcautious of skill monkeys being overshadowed, but I don't see that happening with Iron Heroes' system. thanks for the input. from what i have seen iron heroes has alot of interesting rules, many of which are similar to ones i have or am planning on implementing. their skill system is interesting, but i dont like it for the types of games i run. i think it is best for games in which skills are very general, and are more in the background. the reason i prefer my system to the one you presented isn't just because i want the skill monkeys to maintain their position/role in the party (though that is certainly a reason); i also prefer more differentiation in the skills, which in turn allows more variance in the characters. a final reason, is that i want the skills to be a bit easier to get, without having to rework the entire skill check DC system. with too many skill points going into a limited number of categories, most characters will be able to make all but the most difficult DC's, making checks virtually redundant. with the iron heroes system i would almost rather just have a proficiency system like old 2nd ed AD&D.
rydi123 10-04-06, 07:34 PM	sorry i didnt reply to you guys when i replied to fatal error, i was tired and wasn't paying attention. My thoughts on knowledge skills. I've been thinking about it and I believe that since you cut down number of skills considerably, same should happen to knowledges (perhaps it should even happen in original game, but anyway). Here's my jab at the issue: Skill - what old skills are in it (what it also covers) Knowledge: Engineering - Kn: Architecture & Eng., Disable Device, Open Lock Knowledge: Magic - Kn: Arcana, Spellcraft/Psicraft Knowledge: Medicine - Heal (herbs, plants, biology, anatomy, determining living creature's type) Knowledge: Religion - Kn: Religion, Kn: Planes (philosophy) Knowledge: Science - Craft: Alchemy (astronomy, math, basic physics and chemistry) Knowledge: Societies - Kn: History, Kn: Geography, Kn: Nobility & Royalty, Speak Language, Decipher Script (business, trade routes, governements, heraldry) Knowledge: Nature is partially under Medicine. Rest of it and Knowedge: Dungeoneering I'd put under Survival. i took your advice on dungeoneering being survival. good idea. i thought about cutting down on the knowledges, and i did a bit. i added in a few new ones, merged a few skills and knowledges together, etc, but i decided that since my focus was more on the roleplay and creating characters with expertise in crafts/professions, and with rich backgrounds, i would keep a good amount of knowledges to further that goal. Also, knowledges represent such a broad category of information already, i didn't feel like it was justified. As I like more variety of skills, I personally would not use it and hope it doesn't become official in 4e. However, it looks fine and, if I recall correctly, is similar (if not identical) to Iron Heroes cascading skills (which I didn't care for either). Regarding the hanging skills: Escape Artist and Sleight of hand: Either keep them as a seperate skills or create a new category Thievery which might include Escape Artist, Open Locks, Sleight of Hand Survival : useful enought to keep seperate Use Rope, I say ditch it! Let Use Rope default to Climb and appropriate professon skills such as Profession (Sailor). i have thought on the thievery skill and i am just not sure. i do like it because it is what i want in terms of system performance, but it just seems to lump alot of things that aren't necessarily related together, which hurts my brain. and yeah, use rope sucks.
GalaionEmpire 10-05-06, 12:10 PM	I think what you have will work good there a few games that use a system much like this the two that I can think of off the top are ICE’s HARP and Role Master. I haven’t played HARP but I have played RM fore 15 years now and it’s IMHO a very good system:)
rydi123 10-09-06, 08:31 AM	huh. didn't occur to me, but i do suppose there are similarities to rolemaster. scary. though RM is a good system in many ways, the 12 hour character creation just puts me off :) . i guess i should look over the base RM rules for some ideas. what was that other game you mentioned?
Szatany 10-09-06, 02:10 PM	I vaguley remember Traveler: The New Era having some interesting rules (including skills, but mostly organic character creation).
Scalamander 10-10-06, 12:12 AM	Couldn't you stick all the social skills, diplomacy, gather information, intimidate and others under a category like speechcraft, to take an idea out of Elder Scrolls?
GalaionEmpire 10-10-06, 12:25 AM	I attempted to post this yesterday but it didn’t make it. H.A.R.P. (High Action Role Playing) is made by ICE the makers of Role Master. It is an attempt to get some of the D&D 3e market but it was created by ICE new owner who had never played RM when he bought the company. So he wonted something a little more like D&D and that is HARP. I own a copy of HARP but I only skimmed it if I am looking fore something like D&D I play 3e if I need something more complex then its RM. I like each system fore what they are. IMHO D&D id fantastic I love it, RM is fatalist and I love that about it. I have even converted one of my old RM campaigns to D&D and it made it better because it had gotten beyond the scope RM fore my liking. When I first looked at 3e I thought that Wizards had hired some of the ICE staff to help right the new stuff. I like skill based games I always have but I started gamming with RM. The new RM is more streamed lined then the old they dropped 75% of the classes and made back rounds to compensate. That’s one of the thing I like with the new D&D you build your carter with goals in mind. In RM you build with background in mind and I think that tacks longer. Old RM wasn’t this way one of my friends had gotten so good at making characters that he could do it in 45 minuets.
rydi123 10-10-06, 12:42 AM	wow. a 45 minute rm character!?! that is impressive. i do like background systems myself, but it all just depends on the feel of the game. huh. that makes me want to post a new thread...