Skill System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Skill System [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MageDance
04-10-07, 01:59 PM I find the skill point system a little to complex for its use, the great majority of people either max ranks in a few skills (for low skill point classes) or divide amongst a lot of skills (the for high skill point classes); and besides, making high-level characters can be a pain, just because of the amount of skill points to distribute; so I was thinking of a new way to work it while keeping the same mechanics, that is, not changing the system in itself, just a simpler way to buy skills.

What I came up with is basically this: There are 3 levels of "ranks" in a skill: 0, 1 or 2. Zero points means what it means normally, you get your Ability modifier and thats it. One (1) point means you get 1/2 your level +1 as a bonus. Two (2) points means it´s maxed out so you get your level +3 as a bonus. At first level a character receives 2 x (skill points per level + int), and doesn´t get extra skill points as they level up; that way, one can decide either to max a skill (2 points) or to "put a little bit in it" (1 point). It works the same way if you wanna max them all out, if not, it´s simpler.

There would be 2 skill-related Feats (so far):
Skill Focus: +4 to a skill
Skill Training: You get 1 skill point (that is, you can have "level 1" in a skill)

So... what do you guys think of it? It seems simple enough and seems to work fine.. never tested it.. yet...
Arcade
04-10-07, 02:20 PM Seems very similar to the Unearthed Arcana variant, Maximum ranks, limited skills (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm#maximumRanks LimitedChoices) and addresses the issues you stated exactly.

Are you planning on using cross class skills? I would suggest not in this system- characters determine their cross class skills by only giving 1 rank in that skill. Plus, it would make multi-classing more difficult to handle as well.

Giving half ranks is good, like cross class skills. Sometimes, it's nice to set a limit on max ranks for skills providing synergry and other specific bonuses. A lot of skills only have 5 ranks for these purposes. Prestige class requirements have similar limitations. Speak Language is the only other one to worry about since picking up one or two languages is all most characters ever want.

At high levels, a system like this is a nice easy way to generate your character.
MageDance
04-10-07, 02:31 PM Oh, there would still be cross-class skill in this system; it costs double, just like the normal system. You gotta pay 2 points to have level 1 (bonus = 1/2 level +1) or 4 points to max it out (bonus = level +3).

It kinda looks like the UA system, though in this system you dont necessarily need to max out a skill, you could have more "know a little bit" skills.

The 1/2 level +1 was a bonus I found appropriate, it´s not much so that everyone would rahter have 2 skills with it, and also not too little that wouldnt make a difference.. besides, looking at my players sheets and other made characters.. its a fair amount for a skill that is not maxed out.

Wel.. thanks for the thought... but now that you mentioned it... the Speak Language thing is an issue I didnt think of... gotta find a way to work it out now...
RobbyPants
04-10-07, 08:13 PM Wel.. thanks for the thought... but now that you mentioned it... the Speak Language thing is an issue I didnt think of... gotta find a way to work it out now...
You could have it scale with level. For example, perhaps when you pick it up, you get one language, and then another language every four levels thereafter. If you put two points into it, you could get an extra language, and instead one language every two levels (or something like that).
Ranger REG
04-10-07, 09:23 PM So... what do you guys think of it? It seems simple enough and seems to work fine.. never tested it.. yet...
Well, if you don't like to micromanage skill's ranks and skill points, you might want to check out a glimpse of Star Wars Saga Edition Skill System.
bartleby42
04-11-07, 01:53 AM This is fine and dandy if you know what skills you want for the rest of the campain when you initally create the charecter. The problem with this system is that you cannot adjust your skill load if a new system is enacted. Heck, you can't even add a skill due to RP reasons alone.

If a PC wanted to take a spellcasting class after previously deciding on being Melee, they would have no ablility to pick up spellcraft.

If a PC found good reason and cause to pick up weaving, the PC can't take any ranks in craft(weaving).

It is too limiting and encourages playing a build, not a charecter.
MageDance
04-11-07, 10:25 AM If a PC wanted to take a spellcasting class after previously deciding on being Melee, they would have no ablility to pick up spellcraft.

If a PC found good reason and cause to pick up weaving, the PC can't take any ranks in craft(weaving).
.

Oh sorry, didn´t get into the details... hehe...

Well, here´s what happens when you multiclass: You can choose which of your current skills gets bonus from both classes, which ones receive from only the first and which will be only from the second class; up to the new class´s skill points. For a simple example (not counting int bonus), a Fighter with maxed Climb and Swim, multiclasses into Barbarian; he then chooses (from the 4 skill points of the barbarian) Climb for both classes, and chooses Listen, Survival and Jump for the Barbarian classes; so now, Climb gets bonus from both classes, Swim only from Fighter and Listen, Survival and Jump from Barbarian classes.

Also, I was thinking every 3 levels (or maybe 2 or 4) a character can make one "step" change, (swap 1 point between any 2 skills). For example, the Character above, upon reaching 8th level takes one point from Climb and adds to his Craft(weaving) skill. (So now both skills are "level 1", receiving 1/2 level +1). I like the idea that the character has left a little of his athletic climber life and took up a life of basketweaving.
The "numeric" change would be approximately the same under the normal rules, if upon gaining a level you added levels to all the others skills (except climb) and weaving. And really, one or two less (or more) points in a skill wouldn´t make a big difference, only after some time would the less points in Climb and the extra points in Weaving make a noticeable difference

So, now that I´ve explained the idea for multiclassing and BasketWeaving Fighters, how does it look? Simple enough and yet consistent.. ?

PS: bartleby42, I am not mocking you, it was just a joke
UAMDB
04-11-07, 01:51 PM Ok so the only way to get more skills is to either take a feat, or multiclass. Or you can unlearn what you have learned. Sorry I think this limits RP and character development too much.

Take a character that grew up in the plains. After a few years of adventuring he finds himself working in port towns. Seeing the need for good saliors he decides to join a ships crew. So to learn profession Salior he needs to either multiclass, which might not fit his concept, or take a feat. Considering that you only get 7, that does not seem like a good choice. The other option would be to get worst at lets say Craft Weapons.

Maybe all the character wanted to do was put a few ranks in the skill so he would not be a complete idiot at his job. Your system has him going from not having a clue, to being an expert. There is no middle ground.
Tichondrus
04-11-07, 02:02 PM Personally I find one huge flaw there.
I like playing wizards for example, and they get EVERY SINGLE knowledge s a class skill.
So waht about them?
Maybe you should rule that every single class skill is considered trained (you'd be amazed of how many times my 1 rank in each knowledge skill has saved the whole party)
Arcade
04-11-07, 02:28 PM The multiclass and swapping idea looks fine to me. It's somewhat like the retraining rules from the PHBII.

Like everyone else has mentioned, this system has no room for minor or limited skills where only a set number of ranks are required. However, as far as simplification goes, it's pretty good.

Here's a list of situations which your system does not supprt very well:
synergy bonus (tumbling, jump, various knowledge, balance, etc.)
trained skills (tumbling, knowledge, surivival, etc.)
prestige class/feat requirements
minor roleplaying skills (taking a few ranks in a craft or profession skill)
MageDance
04-11-07, 03:05 PM Well, as for the Plainsman who became a sailor for example, under the normal rules you´d put ranks in Profession (Sailor), but by doing so you are not putting ranks in other skill, your first 1 or 2 ranks won´t make a big difference, but after 3 levels putting 2, 3 or 4, etc.. ranks on Sailor every level, it would have a decent bonus, while other skills wouldn´t be maximized anymore or some few skill would be much lower than the others... it does not make much difference, really. Do the math. In the end it adds up to about the same.

Look: Your plainsman is 3th level with 6 ranks in Craft (Weapon), if every level, for 3 levels he does not put any more ranks in Craft, and put 1 or 2 ranks per level in sailor, he´d have 3 to 6 ranks in sailor (average of 6); so now, he´s 6th level with 6 ranks in Sailor and 6 in Craft(weapon) and other skills not maximized since he needed some other points for Sailor.
Under this system I mentioned, he would have "2 levels" in Craft then would swap one for Sailor, on 6th level he´d have a bonus of 4 for both skills... and the other skills maximized... so there... doesn´t change much.

Now, for the Wizards.. that´s exactly the poing. What is usually done is to have Concentration and Spellcraft maximized, the other points are distributed among the other Knowledges.. wel... it works fine. If you have a +3 int bonus, with 2 from the Class times 2.. you get 10 points right? Then 4 are for maximizing Spellcraft and Concentration, the other 6 can set to the other knowledges skills... Still, does´t seem to change much.

Well, like I said in the beggining, the point of the system is to simplify things, so that one doesn´t need to focus on detailing minimal aspects of skills, you get an idea of what the character knows well or not. The system will not be exactly the same as the standard, of course. But it´s easier for beginners and people who are not into the rules that much. I know a lot of people who are really good players but dont like to bother with knowing the rules that much.

What I´m trying to create is more of a feeling like Storyteller´s. I don´t like vampire, but I admire the simplicity of the system and how easy it is to remember your character skills and abilities without having to look in a sheet. I mean, if you are high enough level it´s impossible to remember all the bonuses in each skill, that in Listen you get +12, Spot +13 and Diplomacy +11, etc...
UAMDB
04-11-07, 06:13 PM Well, as for the Plainsman who became a sailor for example, under the normal rules you´d put ranks in Profession (Sailor), but by doing so you are not putting ranks in other skill, your first 1 or 2 ranks won´t make a big difference, but after 3 levels putting 2, 3 or 4, etc.. ranks on Sailor every level, it would have a decent bonus, while other skills wouldn´t be maximized anymore or some few skill would be much lower than the others... it does not make much difference, really. Do the math. In the end it adds up to about the same.

Look: Your plainsman is 3th level with 6 ranks in Craft (Weapon), if every level, for 3 levels he does not put any more ranks in Craft, and put 1 or 2 ranks per level in sailor, he´d have 3 to 6 ranks in sailor (average of 6); so now, he´s 6th level with 6 ranks in Sailor and 6 in Craft(weapon) and other skills not maximized since he needed some other points for Sailor.
Under this system I mentioned, he would have "2 levels" in Craft then would swap one for Sailor, on 6th level he´d have a bonus of 4 for both skills... and the other skills maximized... so there... doesn´t change much.

Now, for the Wizards.. that´s exactly the poing. What is usually done is to have Concentration and Spellcraft maximized, the other points are distributed among the other Knowledges.. wel... it works fine. If you have a +3 int bonus, with 2 from the Class times 2.. you get 10 points right? Then 4 are for maximizing Spellcraft and Concentration, the other 6 can set to the other knowledges skills... Still, does´t seem to change much.

Well, like I said in the beggining, the point of the system is to simplify things, so that one doesn´t need to focus on detailing minimal aspects of skills, you get an idea of what the character knows well or not. The system will not be exactly the same as the standard, of course. But it´s easier for beginners and people who are not into the rules that much. I know a lot of people who are really good players but dont like to bother with knowing the rules that much.

What I´m trying to create is more of a feeling like Storyteller´s. I don´t like vampire, but I admire the simplicity of the system and how easy it is to remember your character skills and abilities without having to look in a sheet. I mean, if you are high enough level it´s impossible to remember all the bonuses in each skill, that in Listen you get +12, Spot +13 and Diplomacy +11, etc...

The point is I dont want to max out Profession. I only want a few ranks in it say 2.

Lets say that at 6th level under the current system I have Max ranks in Craft Armour 9 ranks

your System if I put 2 in it at level 1 then i would have 9 "ranks" in it

Next level I can put no ranks in Craft Armour and have 9 Ranks
And Profession Sailor 2 ranks

Your system I would have to take way from Craft Armour to add to Profession Sailor

New "Ranks" Craft Armour 4 "ranks" Maybe 5 "ranks" if you round up
New "Ranks" Profession Sailor 4"ranks" Maybe 5 "ranks"

How do you explain the drop in 4-5 ranks by wanting to take a few in Profession Sailor?

i agree that if you wanted to max both skills out then your system might come to the average at 20th level, but if you wanted to only add a few ranks for flavor reason then you get hosed.

Extend example to 20th level assuming everything above has happened.

At 20th level under current system my ranks would be as follows

Craft Armour 22 ranks (I did not add any ranks when I hit 7th level to add to Salior)
Profession Salior 2 ranks (I only wanted this for Flavor)

Your system
Craft Armour 11 "ranks"
Profession Salior 11 "ranks"

Does this show you how it can hurt people.
bartleby42
04-11-07, 07:18 PM I think the fix solves my beef with it. Sure you can't just go in for a penny with skills, you have to go in for the pound.

Sure paying lip service to skills that are there for RP reasons is reduced to making it an intergal part of you charecter, which IMHO isn't a bad thing. If you pick and poke at any system you can find wacky loop holes, but on a whole this solves all of the problems that MageDance was trying to fix with no glaring holes.

It's simpler to make high level charecters, leveling is simpler and you can still change focus.
MageDance
04-11-07, 08:21 PM Sure paying lip service to skills that are there for RP reasons is reduced to making it an intergal part of you charecter, which IMHO isn't a bad thing. If you pick and poke at any system you can find wacky loop holes, but on a whole this solves all of the problems that MageDance was trying to fix with no glaring holes.

Well.. yeah.. I mean, really, at 20th level what difference does +2 in a skill mean? Or +22 instead of +23???... If you are really a sailor you gotta have learned a little more, if you just sailed once or twice and learned a few tricks doesn´t mean you are a sailor.

If you dedicated some of your life to it (sailing), maybe you left some of your Blacksmithing life behind (hard to work those anvils on a sailing ship, while still working the sails).. if you jsut sailed once or twice, you may have learned to tie the rope nicely but it doesnt make you a sailor.. and THAT´S what I try to show: You said you got a little bit of Profession (Sailor) just to show that you dedicated some points to Roleplaying reason, or your character actually dedicated himself to learn a little bit of sailing?
MageDance
04-12-07, 02:24 PM Look.. what I´m trying to do is to come up with a system that looks more at the big picture. Something that I could easily remember without having to look at the sheet in details. You can tell your Character´s level and probably have a good ideia of its abilities scores without having to look at the character sheet, but probably couldnt tell its skills.. specially at higher levels.

This system I came up with is far from being the best, and yes, it makes things a little "all or nothing" but it´s a base from which I´ll try to build something better; and if some could give a hand I´d be thankful (that´s one of the reasons the boards are for isn´t it...?). Anything that could "group the points" a little more would help... heck, just by giving everyone half the skill points but make every rank give a +2 bonus would be a start, or who knows, maybe give everyone 1/4 skill points and hae each rank counts as a +4... or maybe a feat system... got the idea??

Well.. any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Ranger REG
04-12-07, 09:37 PM Well, you have not responded to my referral to the soon-to-unveil Skill System from Star Wars Saga Edition. :uh-huh:

Here's the link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview2
UAMDB
04-13-07, 12:36 PM Your system does not make it any simpler. You still have to remember which skills you have 1 rank in and which one you have 2 ranks in. Then you have to do the quick math. It is really no different than I have 2 ranks in X and 4 ranks in Y. Sorry but most character sheets have the skills listed in Alphabetical order, so its not hard to find a skill. And I have never seen play bog down while people look for their skills.

You mention Vampire. I played under the 2nd Edition rules. I have not played under the new World of Darkness rules, but with the old rules you had to remember, or look at your character, what your ranks were in any two skils to do any action. You want to shoot a gun, Firearms + Dex. Its the same system but more skills than D&D.

And you still have not answered the problem of the person who wants to dabble in a few skills, ie one or two ranks just incase the need is there. Like you said its either all or nothing. At low levels the differance is little but at higher levels it begins to hurt.

You are correct there is little to no differance between a +21 and a +23. However there is a big differance between +11 and +23. That differeance is normally either pass or fail.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MageDance 04-10-07, 01:59 PM	I find the skill point system a little to complex for its use, the great majority of people either max ranks in a few skills (for low skill point classes) or divide amongst a lot of skills (the for high skill point classes); and besides, making high-level characters can be a pain, just because of the amount of skill points to distribute; so I was thinking of a new way to work it while keeping the same mechanics, that is, not changing the system in itself, just a simpler way to buy skills. What I came up with is basically this: There are 3 levels of "ranks" in a skill: 0, 1 or 2. Zero points means what it means normally, you get your Ability modifier and thats it. One (1) point means you get 1/2 your level +1 as a bonus. Two (2) points means it´s maxed out so you get your level +3 as a bonus. At first level a character receives 2 x (skill points per level + int), and doesn´t get extra skill points as they level up; that way, one can decide either to max a skill (2 points) or to "put a little bit in it" (1 point). It works the same way if you wanna max them all out, if not, it´s simpler. There would be 2 skill-related Feats (so far): Skill Focus: +4 to a skill Skill Training: You get 1 skill point (that is, you can have "level 1" in a skill) So... what do you guys think of it? It seems simple enough and seems to work fine.. never tested it.. yet...
Arcade 04-10-07, 02:20 PM	Seems very similar to the Unearthed Arcana variant, Maximum ranks, limited skills (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm#maximumRanks LimitedChoices) and addresses the issues you stated exactly. Are you planning on using cross class skills? I would suggest not in this system- characters determine their cross class skills by only giving 1 rank in that skill. Plus, it would make multi-classing more difficult to handle as well. Giving half ranks is good, like cross class skills. Sometimes, it's nice to set a limit on max ranks for skills providing synergry and other specific bonuses. A lot of skills only have 5 ranks for these purposes. Prestige class requirements have similar limitations. Speak Language is the only other one to worry about since picking up one or two languages is all most characters ever want. At high levels, a system like this is a nice easy way to generate your character.
MageDance 04-10-07, 02:31 PM	Oh, there would still be cross-class skill in this system; it costs double, just like the normal system. You gotta pay 2 points to have level 1 (bonus = 1/2 level +1) or 4 points to max it out (bonus = level +3). It kinda looks like the UA system, though in this system you dont necessarily need to max out a skill, you could have more "know a little bit" skills. The 1/2 level +1 was a bonus I found appropriate, it´s not much so that everyone would rahter have 2 skills with it, and also not too little that wouldnt make a difference.. besides, looking at my players sheets and other made characters.. its a fair amount for a skill that is not maxed out. Wel.. thanks for the thought... but now that you mentioned it... the Speak Language thing is an issue I didnt think of... gotta find a way to work it out now...
RobbyPants 04-10-07, 08:13 PM	Wel.. thanks for the thought... but now that you mentioned it... the Speak Language thing is an issue I didnt think of... gotta find a way to work it out now... You could have it scale with level. For example, perhaps when you pick it up, you get one language, and then another language every four levels thereafter. If you put two points into it, you could get an extra language, and instead one language every two levels (or something like that).
Ranger REG 04-10-07, 09:23 PM	So... what do you guys think of it? It seems simple enough and seems to work fine.. never tested it.. yet... Well, if you don't like to micromanage skill's ranks and skill points, you might want to check out a glimpse of Star Wars Saga Edition Skill System.
bartleby42 04-11-07, 01:53 AM	This is fine and dandy if you know what skills you want for the rest of the campain when you initally create the charecter. The problem with this system is that you cannot adjust your skill load if a new system is enacted. Heck, you can't even add a skill due to RP reasons alone. If a PC wanted to take a spellcasting class after previously deciding on being Melee, they would have no ablility to pick up spellcraft. If a PC found good reason and cause to pick up weaving, the PC can't take any ranks in craft(weaving). It is too limiting and encourages playing a build, not a charecter.
MageDance 04-11-07, 10:25 AM	If a PC wanted to take a spellcasting class after previously deciding on being Melee, they would have no ablility to pick up spellcraft. If a PC found good reason and cause to pick up weaving, the PC can't take any ranks in craft(weaving). . Oh sorry, didn´t get into the details... hehe... Well, here´s what happens when you multiclass: You can choose which of your current skills gets bonus from both classes, which ones receive from only the first and which will be only from the second class; up to the new class´s skill points. For a simple example (not counting int bonus), a Fighter with maxed Climb and Swim, multiclasses into Barbarian; he then chooses (from the 4 skill points of the barbarian) Climb for both classes, and chooses Listen, Survival and Jump for the Barbarian classes; so now, Climb gets bonus from both classes, Swim only from Fighter and Listen, Survival and Jump from Barbarian classes. Also, I was thinking every 3 levels (or maybe 2 or 4) a character can make one "step" change, (swap 1 point between any 2 skills). For example, the Character above, upon reaching 8th level takes one point from Climb and adds to his Craft(weaving) skill. (So now both skills are "level 1", receiving 1/2 level +1). I like the idea that the character has left a little of his athletic climber life and took up a life of basketweaving. The "numeric" change would be approximately the same under the normal rules, if upon gaining a level you added levels to all the others skills (except climb) and weaving. And really, one or two less (or more) points in a skill wouldn´t make a big difference, only after some time would the less points in Climb and the extra points in Weaving make a noticeable difference So, now that I´ve explained the idea for multiclassing and BasketWeaving Fighters, how does it look? Simple enough and yet consistent.. ? PS: bartleby42, I am not mocking you, it was just a joke
UAMDB 04-11-07, 01:51 PM	Ok so the only way to get more skills is to either take a feat, or multiclass. Or you can unlearn what you have learned. Sorry I think this limits RP and character development too much. Take a character that grew up in the plains. After a few years of adventuring he finds himself working in port towns. Seeing the need for good saliors he decides to join a ships crew. So to learn profession Salior he needs to either multiclass, which might not fit his concept, or take a feat. Considering that you only get 7, that does not seem like a good choice. The other option would be to get worst at lets say Craft Weapons. Maybe all the character wanted to do was put a few ranks in the skill so he would not be a complete idiot at his job. Your system has him going from not having a clue, to being an expert. There is no middle ground.
Tichondrus 04-11-07, 02:02 PM	Personally I find one huge flaw there. I like playing wizards for example, and they get EVERY SINGLE knowledge s a class skill. So waht about them? Maybe you should rule that every single class skill is considered trained (you'd be amazed of how many times my 1 rank in each knowledge skill has saved the whole party)
Arcade 04-11-07, 02:28 PM	The multiclass and swapping idea looks fine to me. It's somewhat like the retraining rules from the PHBII. Like everyone else has mentioned, this system has no room for minor or limited skills where only a set number of ranks are required. However, as far as simplification goes, it's pretty good. Here's a list of situations which your system does not supprt very well: synergy bonus (tumbling, jump, various knowledge, balance, etc.) trained skills (tumbling, knowledge, surivival, etc.) prestige class/feat requirements minor roleplaying skills (taking a few ranks in a craft or profession skill)
MageDance 04-11-07, 03:05 PM	Well, as for the Plainsman who became a sailor for example, under the normal rules you´d put ranks in Profession (Sailor), but by doing so you are not putting ranks in other skill, your first 1 or 2 ranks won´t make a big difference, but after 3 levels putting 2, 3 or 4, etc.. ranks on Sailor every level, it would have a decent bonus, while other skills wouldn´t be maximized anymore or some few skill would be much lower than the others... it does not make much difference, really. Do the math. In the end it adds up to about the same. Look: Your plainsman is 3th level with 6 ranks in Craft (Weapon), if every level, for 3 levels he does not put any more ranks in Craft, and put 1 or 2 ranks per level in sailor, he´d have 3 to 6 ranks in sailor (average of 6); so now, he´s 6th level with 6 ranks in Sailor and 6 in Craft(weapon) and other skills not maximized since he needed some other points for Sailor. Under this system I mentioned, he would have "2 levels" in Craft then would swap one for Sailor, on 6th level he´d have a bonus of 4 for both skills... and the other skills maximized... so there... doesn´t change much. Now, for the Wizards.. that´s exactly the poing. What is usually done is to have Concentration and Spellcraft maximized, the other points are distributed among the other Knowledges.. wel... it works fine. If you have a +3 int bonus, with 2 from the Class times 2.. you get 10 points right? Then 4 are for maximizing Spellcraft and Concentration, the other 6 can set to the other knowledges skills... Still, does´t seem to change much. Well, like I said in the beggining, the point of the system is to simplify things, so that one doesn´t need to focus on detailing minimal aspects of skills, you get an idea of what the character knows well or not. The system will not be exactly the same as the standard, of course. But it´s easier for beginners and people who are not into the rules that much. I know a lot of people who are really good players but dont like to bother with knowing the rules that much. What I´m trying to create is more of a feeling like Storyteller´s. I don´t like vampire, but I admire the simplicity of the system and how easy it is to remember your character skills and abilities without having to look in a sheet. I mean, if you are high enough level it´s impossible to remember all the bonuses in each skill, that in Listen you get +12, Spot +13 and Diplomacy +11, etc...
UAMDB 04-11-07, 06:13 PM	Well, as for the Plainsman who became a sailor for example, under the normal rules you´d put ranks in Profession (Sailor), but by doing so you are not putting ranks in other skill, your first 1 or 2 ranks won´t make a big difference, but after 3 levels putting 2, 3 or 4, etc.. ranks on Sailor every level, it would have a decent bonus, while other skills wouldn´t be maximized anymore or some few skill would be much lower than the others... it does not make much difference, really. Do the math. In the end it adds up to about the same. Look: Your plainsman is 3th level with 6 ranks in Craft (Weapon), if every level, for 3 levels he does not put any more ranks in Craft, and put 1 or 2 ranks per level in sailor, he´d have 3 to 6 ranks in sailor (average of 6); so now, he´s 6th level with 6 ranks in Sailor and 6 in Craft(weapon) and other skills not maximized since he needed some other points for Sailor. Under this system I mentioned, he would have "2 levels" in Craft then would swap one for Sailor, on 6th level he´d have a bonus of 4 for both skills... and the other skills maximized... so there... doesn´t change much. Now, for the Wizards.. that´s exactly the poing. What is usually done is to have Concentration and Spellcraft maximized, the other points are distributed among the other Knowledges.. wel... it works fine. If you have a +3 int bonus, with 2 from the Class times 2.. you get 10 points right? Then 4 are for maximizing Spellcraft and Concentration, the other 6 can set to the other knowledges skills... Still, does´t seem to change much. Well, like I said in the beggining, the point of the system is to simplify things, so that one doesn´t need to focus on detailing minimal aspects of skills, you get an idea of what the character knows well or not. The system will not be exactly the same as the standard, of course. But it´s easier for beginners and people who are not into the rules that much. I know a lot of people who are really good players but dont like to bother with knowing the rules that much. What I´m trying to create is more of a feeling like Storyteller´s. I don´t like vampire, but I admire the simplicity of the system and how easy it is to remember your character skills and abilities without having to look in a sheet. I mean, if you are high enough level it´s impossible to remember all the bonuses in each skill, that in Listen you get +12, Spot +13 and Diplomacy +11, etc... The point is I dont want to max out Profession. I only want a few ranks in it say 2. Lets say that at 6th level under the current system I have Max ranks in Craft Armour 9 ranks your System if I put 2 in it at level 1 then i would have 9 "ranks" in it Next level I can put no ranks in Craft Armour and have 9 Ranks And Profession Sailor 2 ranks Your system I would have to take way from Craft Armour to add to Profession Sailor New "Ranks" Craft Armour 4 "ranks" Maybe 5 "ranks" if you round up New "Ranks" Profession Sailor 4"ranks" Maybe 5 "ranks" How do you explain the drop in 4-5 ranks by wanting to take a few in Profession Sailor? i agree that if you wanted to max both skills out then your system might come to the average at 20th level, but if you wanted to only add a few ranks for flavor reason then you get hosed. Extend example to 20th level assuming everything above has happened. At 20th level under current system my ranks would be as follows Craft Armour 22 ranks (I did not add any ranks when I hit 7th level to add to Salior) Profession Salior 2 ranks (I only wanted this for Flavor) Your system Craft Armour 11 "ranks" Profession Salior 11 "ranks" Does this show you how it can hurt people.
bartleby42 04-11-07, 07:18 PM	I think the fix solves my beef with it. Sure you can't just go in for a penny with skills, you have to go in for the pound. Sure paying lip service to skills that are there for RP reasons is reduced to making it an intergal part of you charecter, which IMHO isn't a bad thing. If you pick and poke at any system you can find wacky loop holes, but on a whole this solves all of the problems that MageDance was trying to fix with no glaring holes. It's simpler to make high level charecters, leveling is simpler and you can still change focus.
MageDance 04-11-07, 08:21 PM	Sure paying lip service to skills that are there for RP reasons is reduced to making it an intergal part of you charecter, which IMHO isn't a bad thing. If you pick and poke at any system you can find wacky loop holes, but on a whole this solves all of the problems that MageDance was trying to fix with no glaring holes. Well.. yeah.. I mean, really, at 20th level what difference does +2 in a skill mean? Or +22 instead of +23???... If you are really a sailor you gotta have learned a little more, if you just sailed once or twice and learned a few tricks doesn´t mean you are a sailor. If you dedicated some of your life to it (sailing), maybe you left some of your Blacksmithing life behind (hard to work those anvils on a sailing ship, while still working the sails).. if you jsut sailed once or twice, you may have learned to tie the rope nicely but it doesnt make you a sailor.. and THAT´S what I try to show: You said you got a little bit of Profession (Sailor) just to show that you dedicated some points to Roleplaying reason, or your character actually dedicated himself to learn a little bit of sailing?
MageDance 04-12-07, 02:24 PM	Look.. what I´m trying to do is to come up with a system that looks more at the big picture. Something that I could easily remember without having to look at the sheet in details. You can tell your Character´s level and probably have a good ideia of its abilities scores without having to look at the character sheet, but probably couldnt tell its skills.. specially at higher levels. This system I came up with is far from being the best, and yes, it makes things a little "all or nothing" but it´s a base from which I´ll try to build something better; and if some could give a hand I´d be thankful (that´s one of the reasons the boards are for isn´t it...?). Anything that could "group the points" a little more would help... heck, just by giving everyone half the skill points but make every rank give a +2 bonus would be a start, or who knows, maybe give everyone 1/4 skill points and hae each rank counts as a +4... or maybe a feat system... got the idea?? Well.. any help would be appreciated. Thanks
Ranger REG 04-12-07, 09:37 PM	Well, you have not responded to my referral to the soon-to-unveil Skill System from Star Wars Saga Edition. :uh-huh: Here's the link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview2
UAMDB 04-13-07, 12:36 PM	Your system does not make it any simpler. You still have to remember which skills you have 1 rank in and which one you have 2 ranks in. Then you have to do the quick math. It is really no different than I have 2 ranks in X and 4 ranks in Y. Sorry but most character sheets have the skills listed in Alphabetical order, so its not hard to find a skill. And I have never seen play bog down while people look for their skills. You mention Vampire. I played under the 2nd Edition rules. I have not played under the new World of Darkness rules, but with the old rules you had to remember, or look at your character, what your ranks were in any two skils to do any action. You want to shoot a gun, Firearms + Dex. Its the same system but more skills than D&D. And you still have not answered the problem of the person who wants to dabble in a few skills, ie one or two ranks just incase the need is there. Like you said its either all or nothing. At low levels the differance is little but at higher levels it begins to hurt. You are correct there is little to no differance between a +21 and a +23. However there is a big differance between +11 and +23. That differeance is normally either pass or fail.