Skills and Techniques [Archive] - Wizards Community

Skills and Techniques [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Angurwald
07-08-05, 07:50 PM The skill system defines what a character can do. He doesn’t know medicine, he heal. He’s not perceptive, he spot and listen. He’s not athletic, he jump, tumble, swim and climb. Although it illustrates quite well what kind of actions a character can take it doesn’t really portray what he knows.

Personally I have a problem with that. I don’t want my fighter to simply climb and swim. I want him to be good at athletics or acrobatics. I don’t want my rogue to simply spot and search and hide. I want him to be perceptive and attentive and stealthy. Although these qualities can easily be portrayed through good role play, the system being what it is, with it’s emphasis on rules and game mechanics, I find it important to be able to describe a character from both perspective (role play and roll play).

The basic of this house rule is to make the skill system less specific. To really be able to describe what a character can do, what he knows, what he’s good at.

Here’s the basics:

- Rule system stays the same.
- Skills are less specifics: For example Climb and Swim becomes Athletics. Balance, Jump and Tumble becomes Acrobatics. Spot and Listen becomes Awareness. Bluff and Diplomacy becomes Persuasion.
- No specific ability modifier. For example a character can try to persuade somebody using his charisma or his intelligence. The final decision is made by the DM.
- No specific synergy bonus. They still do exist but they’re not automatic. Also they can be used as penalties. High Intimidation can help on a Persuasion check or it can de detrimental. Again this is the Dungeon Masters decision.
- Class and cross-class skills still exists.
- A player can buy Techniques witch are specialties of sort. For example, climbing could be a technique used with the Athletics skill. A technique cost a single skill point and gives a +2 specialty bonus on related check. Techniques can’t be generic, they need to be specifics.

My problem right now is twofold. First I need to find an appropriate list of generic skills. Beside the skills themselves, I need at least as many skills as the system is using right now. After all, the basic skill points allowed to each character class is dependant on the number of skills to choose from. So if the system uses 35 skills then I need 35 generic skills.

Second, I have to establish new class skills for each basic character class.

That’s basically it for now.
Angurwald
07-08-05, 08:55 PM Here's a basic list of skills I came up with. I try to use noun as much as possible.

- Academics
- Acrobatics
- Animalistics
- Athletics
- Appraisal
- Awareness
- Concentration
- Craftsmanship
- Decipherment
- Disablement
- Empathy
- Expression
- Intimidation
- Investigation
- Knowledge
- Larceny
- Linguistics
- Medicine
- Persuasion
- Performance
- Politics
- Profession
- Research
- Ride
- Sail
- Search
- Socialization
- Stealth
- Survival
- Utilization

Thirty skills total.

edit. Alright Animalistics is probably not a word...
Kintara
07-08-05, 09:26 PM Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=450501) is a thread where we discuss skill reduction a few weeks ago. Here's my relevant post:
A smaller skill list is something I think should be done. One of my DMs has already started testing out a smaller list.

Discard: Hide and Move Silently
Replace With: Stealth
Primary Ability: Dex

Discard: Balance and Tumble
Replace With: Acrobatics
Primary Ability: Dex
~ Special: 5 ranks in Acrobatics gives a +2 synergy to Athletics

Discard: Climb, Jump, and Swim
Replace With: Athletics
Primary Ability: Str
~ Special: 5 ranks in Athletics gives a +2 synergy to Acrobatics

Discard: Open Lock
Replace With: Disable Device

Discard: Appraise
Replace With: relevant Craft or Profession skill

Discard: Decipher Script and Speak Language
Replace With: Language
Primary Ability: Int
~ Special: Ranks work the same way as with Speak Language. Skill total is used as Decipher Script.
Oh, and we made the Bind function of Use Rope a part of Sleight of Hand, and the other stuff was made easier if you have an appropriate skill.

If you're really going for simplicity, then roll Spot and Listen together into Alertness, make Craft into a general Crafts skill (perhaps with each rank giving you another specialty, like how Perform worked in 3.0, and make Perform like that while you're at it), and make Knowledge into a general Lore skill.

This leaves the Cha skills alone, mostly, but you could roll some of those together, too.

If you really shrink the number of skills down a lot, then you might consider lowering the skill points slightly for the high SP classes.

Another idea for skills like Perform, Craft, and even Knowledge is to make a character take a specialization, like normal, but allow all the other possibilities at a DC penalty of 5. The character can just buy another specialty for a skill point if they want to eliminate the penalty.
--
Anyway, your goals are a little different, but it might be worth going through that thread for some ideas. Personally, I disagree that you need the same number of skills. I don't think that's true at all. Sure, a skill reduction gives characters more than they do now, but I don't see why that's a problem. I think standard D&D characters are rather skill starved, in the first place.

For the skill names, Disable, if you want it to be a noun, is Disabling. Deciphering is also the appropriate grammatical form. Alternatively, you can come up with another name. Disable Device is basically "Traps," for instance.

What's Utilization?
Szatany
07-10-05, 03:20 PM I was also toying with skills in my upcoming WoW game. I managed to remove most of the useless/uninteresting ones while keeping a good number of skills to choose from. I also added a skill or two because I strongly felt the game needed those. Here it comes.

Skill master list:
Athletics - contains Climb and Swim skills
Bluff - no changes
Command (Cha or Int) - includes Profession (commander) and Knowledge (military tactics) from Warcrarft RPG, basically use this skill to command other people (the Charisma part) and create and use military plans and tactics (Intelligence part)
Concentration - no changes
Craft - is divided into only 5 subskills, for simplicity. They are:
- alchemy - no changes
- arms & armors - includes weaponsmithing, armorsmithing, bowmaking
- common items - includes bookbinding, basketweaving, tailor and other mudane crafts
- constructions - includes knowledge (architecture), lets you make buildings and vehicles
- technological device - no changes, this skill is from warcraft rpg so ignore it if you play other d20 games
Decipher - new name for old Decipher Script, now can be used to decipher not only scripts but also solve mathematical problems, riddles, navigate through mazes, etc. Also, for those who play warcraft RPG, Use Technological Device skill is also part of decipher.
Diplomacy - includes Gather Information
Disable Device - includes Open Lock
Disguise - no changes
Escapology - new name for Escape Artist, this is purely aethetical change - I just like this name better
Handle Animal - no changes
Heal - no changes
Intimidate - no changes
Knowledge - is divided into only 4 subskills, for simplicity. They are:
- geography - includes knowledge (dungeoneering)
- magic - includes knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft
- mysticism - includes knowledge (religion) and knowledge (planes)
- people - includes knowledge (history), knowledge (local) and knowledge (nobility)
Linguistics - this new skill includes Speak Language and Forgery. For each rank in this skill you know one extra language.
Listen - no changes
Perform - is divided into only 4 subskills, for simplicity. They are:
- act - includes perform (comedy) and perform (oratory)
- dance and sing - includes perform (dance) and perform (sing)
- play instrument - includes all perform (xxx instruments) skills
Profession - no changes
Ride - no changes
Running - includes Jump, also when you run (speed x3 or 4), make Running check. Each point above 10 increases your speed by 1. Make new check each minute of running or whenever you have to slow down considerably and then try to run fast again
Search - no changes
Sense Motive - no changes
Sleight of Hand - no changes
Spot - no changes
Stealth - includes Hide and Move Silently
Survival - includes Knowledge (nature)
Tumble - includes Balance
Use Magic Device - no changes

Renamed skills:
Decipher Script changes name to Decipher
Escape Artist changes name to Escapology

Removed skills:
Appraise - is gone. Test appropriate Knowledge or Craft skill when determining price of item
Balance - is now part of Tumble
Climb - is now part of Athletics
Craft (bookbinding, basketweaving, tailor, etc.) merge into Craft (common items)
Craft (armorsmithing, bowmaking, and weaponsmithing) merge into Craft (arms and armors)
Forgery is now part of Linguistics
Gather Information is now part of Diplomacy
Hide is now part of Stealth
Jump is now part of Running
Knowledge (arcana) is now part of Knowledge (magic)
Knowledge (dungeoneering) is now part of Knowledge (geography)
Knowledge (engineering) is now part of Craft (constructions).
Knowledge (history) is now part of Knowledge (people)
Knowledge (local) is now part of Knowledge (people)
Knowledge (nature) is now part of Survival
Knowledge (nobility) is now part of Knowledge (people)
Knowledge (religion) is now part of Knowledge (mysticism)
Knowledge (the planes) is now part of Knowledge (mysticism)
Move Silently is now part of Stealth
Open Lock is now part of Disable Device
Perform (comedy) is now part of Perform (act)
Perform (dance) is now part of Perform (dance and sing)
Perform (keyboard instruments) is now part of Perform (play instrument)
Perform (oratory) is now part of Perform (act)
Perform (percussion instruments) is now part of Perform (play instrument)
Perform (sing) is now part of Perform (dance and sing)
Perform (string instruments) is now part of Perform (play instrument)
Perform (wind instruments) is now part of Perform (play instrument)
Speak Language is now part of Linguistics
Spellcraft is now part of Knowledge (magic)
Swim - is now part of Athletics
Use Technological Device is now part of Decipher (Warcraft only)
Use Rope - is gone, simply make Dex check when appropriate with DCs reduced by 5
Angurwald
07-11-05, 12:55 PM Utilization was supposed to be used instead of the 'use something' skills (Use Rope, Use Magic Device, etc). I didn't like these skills but they are part of the system so I needed something to fill the gap. Use Rope will probably become a game mechanic instead of a skill. Use Magic/Psionic Device might be a problem however. Right now I'm thinking about getting rid of Utilization and using Improvization. Like with Knowledge or Perform one would have to choose a specific subskill to this skill.

Personnally I don't think subkills need to be pre-determined by the rule system. One could use the current subskills as general guidelines but good characterization might call for more specific specialties.

Craft for example could be broader in spectrum, including subskills like Spellcraft. Psicraft or Warcraft.

--A.
Angurwald
07-11-05, 01:21 PM On to something else. What about class skills?

Why can't Bob Smasher, my first level fighter, be good at social interractions? Right now he can only be intimidating. If I don't wan't to multiclass him as a bard or a paladin and still be able to cheese with the best of 'em, what am I supposed to do? And what if I wan't him to swim like a rock? Do I really have to take Swim simply because he's to damn intelligent and I don't know what to do with is extra skill points? Of course I could keep the extra skill points and use them at a later level but I think you're getting the point.

After thinking about it I'm thinking about giving the player the responsibility of choosing his characters basic class skills. Seven for a fighter or thirteen for a druid (using the current list of skills). The final decision would be in the DM's hands as to wich skill is and is not available. A ranger form the Plain of Eternal Rockness might not be able to choose Swim as a skill for example.

A Prestige Class is something else and need specific class skills but a basic class is a lot more customizable.

--A.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Angurwald 07-08-05, 07:50 PM	The skill system defines what a character can do. He doesn’t know medicine, he heal. He’s not perceptive, he spot and listen. He’s not athletic, he jump, tumble, swim and climb. Although it illustrates quite well what kind of actions a character can take it doesn’t really portray what he knows. Personally I have a problem with that. I don’t want my fighter to simply climb and swim. I want him to be good at athletics or acrobatics. I don’t want my rogue to simply spot and search and hide. I want him to be perceptive and attentive and stealthy. Although these qualities can easily be portrayed through good role play, the system being what it is, with it’s emphasis on rules and game mechanics, I find it important to be able to describe a character from both perspective (role play and roll play). The basic of this house rule is to make the skill system less specific. To really be able to describe what a character can do, what he knows, what he’s good at. Here’s the basics: - Rule system stays the same. - Skills are less specifics: For example Climb and Swim becomes Athletics. Balance, Jump and Tumble becomes Acrobatics. Spot and Listen becomes Awareness. Bluff and Diplomacy becomes Persuasion. - No specific ability modifier. For example a character can try to persuade somebody using his charisma or his intelligence. The final decision is made by the DM. - No specific synergy bonus. They still do exist but they’re not automatic. Also they can be used as penalties. High Intimidation can help on a Persuasion check or it can de detrimental. Again this is the Dungeon Masters decision. - Class and cross-class skills still exists. - A player can buy Techniques witch are specialties of sort. For example, climbing could be a technique used with the Athletics skill. A technique cost a single skill point and gives a +2 specialty bonus on related check. Techniques can’t be generic, they need to be specifics. My problem right now is twofold. First I need to find an appropriate list of generic skills. Beside the skills themselves, I need at least as many skills as the system is using right now. After all, the basic skill points allowed to each character class is dependant on the number of skills to choose from. So if the system uses 35 skills then I need 35 generic skills. Second, I have to establish new class skills for each basic character class. That’s basically it for now.
Angurwald 07-08-05, 08:55 PM	Here's a basic list of skills I came up with. I try to use noun as much as possible. - Academics - Acrobatics - Animalistics - Athletics - Appraisal - Awareness - Concentration - Craftsmanship - Decipherment - Disablement - Empathy - Expression - Intimidation - Investigation - Knowledge - Larceny - Linguistics - Medicine - Persuasion - Performance - Politics - Profession - Research - Ride - Sail - Search - Socialization - Stealth - Survival - Utilization Thirty skills total. edit. Alright Animalistics is probably not a word...
Kintara 07-08-05, 09:26 PM	Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=450501) is a thread where we discuss skill reduction a few weeks ago. Here's my relevant post: A smaller skill list is something I think should be done. One of my DMs has already started testing out a smaller list. Discard: Hide and Move Silently Replace With: Stealth Primary Ability: Dex Discard: Balance and Tumble Replace With: Acrobatics Primary Ability: Dex ~ Special: 5 ranks in Acrobatics gives a +2 synergy to Athletics Discard: Climb, Jump, and Swim Replace With: Athletics Primary Ability: Str ~ Special: 5 ranks in Athletics gives a +2 synergy to Acrobatics Discard: Open Lock Replace With: Disable Device Discard: Appraise Replace With: relevant Craft or Profession skill Discard: Decipher Script and Speak Language Replace With: Language Primary Ability: Int ~ Special: Ranks work the same way as with Speak Language. Skill total is used as Decipher Script. Oh, and we made the Bind function of Use Rope a part of Sleight of Hand, and the other stuff was made easier if you have an appropriate skill. If you're really going for simplicity, then roll Spot and Listen together into Alertness, make Craft into a general Crafts skill (perhaps with each rank giving you another specialty, like how Perform worked in 3.0, and make Perform like that while you're at it), and make Knowledge into a general Lore skill. This leaves the Cha skills alone, mostly, but you could roll some of those together, too. If you really shrink the number of skills down a lot, then you might consider lowering the skill points slightly for the high SP classes. Another idea for skills like Perform, Craft, and even Knowledge is to make a character take a specialization, like normal, but allow all the other possibilities at a DC penalty of 5. The character can just buy another specialty for a skill point if they want to eliminate the penalty. -- Anyway, your goals are a little different, but it might be worth going through that thread for some ideas. Personally, I disagree that you need the same number of skills. I don't think that's true at all. Sure, a skill reduction gives characters more than they do now, but I don't see why that's a problem. I think standard D&D characters are rather skill starved, in the first place. For the skill names, Disable, if you want it to be a noun, is Disabling. Deciphering is also the appropriate grammatical form. Alternatively, you can come up with another name. Disable Device is basically "Traps," for instance. What's Utilization?
Szatany 07-10-05, 03:20 PM	I was also toying with skills in my upcoming WoW game. I managed to remove most of the useless/uninteresting ones while keeping a good number of skills to choose from. I also added a skill or two because I strongly felt the game needed those. Here it comes. Skill master list: Athletics - contains Climb and Swim skills Bluff - no changes Command (Cha or Int) - includes Profession (commander) and Knowledge (military tactics) from Warcrarft RPG, basically use this skill to command other people (the Charisma part) and create and use military plans and tactics (Intelligence part) Concentration - no changes Craft - is divided into only 5 subskills, for simplicity. They are: - alchemy - no changes - arms & armors - includes weaponsmithing, armorsmithing, bowmaking - common items - includes bookbinding, basketweaving, tailor and other mudane crafts - constructions - includes knowledge (architecture), lets you make buildings and vehicles - technological device - no changes, this skill is from warcraft rpg so ignore it if you play other d20 games Decipher - new name for old Decipher Script, now can be used to decipher not only scripts but also solve mathematical problems, riddles, navigate through mazes, etc. Also, for those who play warcraft RPG, Use Technological Device skill is also part of decipher. Diplomacy - includes Gather Information Disable Device - includes Open Lock Disguise - no changes Escapology - new name for Escape Artist, this is purely aethetical change - I just like this name better Handle Animal - no changes Heal - no changes Intimidate - no changes Knowledge - is divided into only 4 subskills, for simplicity. They are: - geography - includes knowledge (dungeoneering) - magic - includes knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft - mysticism - includes knowledge (religion) and knowledge (planes) - people - includes knowledge (history), knowledge (local) and knowledge (nobility) Linguistics - this new skill includes Speak Language and Forgery. For each rank in this skill you know one extra language. Listen - no changes Perform - is divided into only 4 subskills, for simplicity. They are: - act - includes perform (comedy) and perform (oratory) - dance and sing - includes perform (dance) and perform (sing) - play instrument - includes all perform (xxx instruments) skills Profession - no changes Ride - no changes Running - includes Jump, also when you run (speed x3 or 4), make Running check. Each point above 10 increases your speed by 1. Make new check each minute of running or whenever you have to slow down considerably and then try to run fast again Search - no changes Sense Motive - no changes Sleight of Hand - no changes Spot - no changes Stealth - includes Hide and Move Silently Survival - includes Knowledge (nature) Tumble - includes Balance Use Magic Device - no changes Renamed skills: Decipher Script changes name to Decipher Escape Artist changes name to Escapology Removed skills: Appraise - is gone. Test appropriate Knowledge or Craft skill when determining price of item Balance - is now part of Tumble Climb - is now part of Athletics Craft (bookbinding, basketweaving, tailor, etc.) merge into Craft (common items) Craft (armorsmithing, bowmaking, and weaponsmithing) merge into Craft (arms and armors) Forgery is now part of Linguistics Gather Information is now part of Diplomacy Hide is now part of Stealth Jump is now part of Running Knowledge (arcana) is now part of Knowledge (magic) Knowledge (dungeoneering) is now part of Knowledge (geography) Knowledge (engineering) is now part of Craft (constructions). Knowledge (history) is now part of Knowledge (people) Knowledge (local) is now part of Knowledge (people) Knowledge (nature) is now part of Survival Knowledge (nobility) is now part of Knowledge (people) Knowledge (religion) is now part of Knowledge (mysticism) Knowledge (the planes) is now part of Knowledge (mysticism) Move Silently is now part of Stealth Open Lock is now part of Disable Device Perform (comedy) is now part of Perform (act) Perform (dance) is now part of Perform (dance and sing) Perform (keyboard instruments) is now part of Perform (play instrument) Perform (oratory) is now part of Perform (act) Perform (percussion instruments) is now part of Perform (play instrument) Perform (sing) is now part of Perform (dance and sing) Perform (string instruments) is now part of Perform (play instrument) Perform (wind instruments) is now part of Perform (play instrument) Speak Language is now part of Linguistics Spellcraft is now part of Knowledge (magic) Swim - is now part of Athletics Use Technological Device is now part of Decipher (Warcraft only) Use Rope - is gone, simply make Dex check when appropriate with DCs reduced by 5
Angurwald 07-11-05, 12:55 PM	Utilization was supposed to be used instead of the 'use something' skills (Use Rope, Use Magic Device, etc). I didn't like these skills but they are part of the system so I needed something to fill the gap. Use Rope will probably become a game mechanic instead of a skill. Use Magic/Psionic Device might be a problem however. Right now I'm thinking about getting rid of Utilization and using Improvization. Like with Knowledge or Perform one would have to choose a specific subskill to this skill. Personnally I don't think subkills need to be pre-determined by the rule system. One could use the current subskills as general guidelines but good characterization might call for more specific specialties. Craft for example could be broader in spectrum, including subskills like Spellcraft. Psicraft or Warcraft. --A.
Angurwald 07-11-05, 01:21 PM	On to something else. What about class skills? Why can't Bob Smasher, my first level fighter, be good at social interractions? Right now he can only be intimidating. If I don't wan't to multiclass him as a bard or a paladin and still be able to cheese with the best of 'em, what am I supposed to do? And what if I wan't him to swim like a rock? Do I really have to take Swim simply because he's to damn intelligent and I don't know what to do with is extra skill points? Of course I could keep the extra skill points and use them at a later level but I think you're getting the point. After thinking about it I'm thinking about giving the player the responsibility of choosing his characters basic class skills. Seven for a fighter or thirteen for a druid (using the current list of skills). The final decision would be in the DM's hands as to wich skill is and is not available. A ranger form the Plain of Eternal Rockness might not be able to choose Swim as a skill for example. A Prestige Class is something else and need specific class skills but a basic class is a lot more customizable. --A.