Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Verelor 04-15-06, 11:31 PM	I decided to make a sneak attack variant for those of you that love your sneak attacks, and also love criticals. It'll take quite some balance review, so everyone please bear with me. The last thing I would want to do is to make this variant system too convoluted when adding balancing features. Surprise Assault (Ex) If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can take advantage and deliver a crippling blow to the vital parts of the opponent's body. The rogue’s critical threat range increases any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This bonus to the weapon's critical threat range is two at 1st level, and it increases by an additional two every two rogue levels thereafter. When the bonus to the critical threat ranger has increased by ten, the rogue becomes so prodigious with surprise assaults that any critical multipler during a surprise assault is increased by one (so, for example, a punching dagger deals x4 instead of x3 damage on a successful critical when used in a surprise assault). The critical multiplier again increases this way every additional +10 to the critical threat range. For example, Lidda is 6th level and attacks an unaware goblin sorcerer that is denied his dexterity bonus to AC. She successfully strikes with the rapier and rolls 1d4+3 damage. Because this is a surprise asault, lidda's critical threat range with the weapon is now 12–20/x2. She scores the easy critical and instead deals a deadly 2d4+6 damage to the goblin sorcerer. Ranged attacks can count as surprise assaults only if the target is within 30 feet. A rogue can surprise assault only living creatures with discernible anatomies—most undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to regular critical hits is not vulnerable to surprise assaults. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot surprise assault while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.
EjoThims 04-16-06, 03:47 AM	Does the increased multiplier continue, or does it continue to scale up with incresaed range? Does it kick in as soon they get +10 threat range (level 9), or the next time, (level 11)? What would the threat range/multiplier of a 19th level Rogue be? Would it be +20 threat range and +1 multiplier, +18 threat and +1 multiplier, or +10 threat and +5 multiplier?
theblindman 04-16-06, 04:26 AM	I really like the basic idea, but I can't imagine it giving the same satisfying crunchy feeling as the current rules in a game session. It's just that I can't really think of another special ability that only works some of the time (and less than 25% of the time, at that). Most players, mine included, may find that a bit frustrating.
FlameLover 04-16-06, 04:57 AM	I love the idea. But it wouldn't give the same feeling during play as you get rolling a handful of d6s. It's a joy mages get at higher levels, and something the rogue relishes when they can. Mechanically i'd say it might be slithly too good. People would maximise the effects by wielding "# Burst" weapons, etc. Making it +1 threat range and +1 every two levels thereafter (max +10) seems more fitting. As a middle ground, adding a chain of feats called Critical Sneak Attack, Improved Critical Sneak Attack and Greater Critical Sneak Attack could work also. The prerequisite would be maybe 3d6, 6d6 and 9d6 SA dice respectivley and increase your threat range +2, +4 and +6 respectivley on a Sneak Attack. I havn't done the maths, so I can't vouch for balance, but I don't see anything immediatley overpowered about it.
Verelor 04-16-06, 01:40 PM	Does the increased multiplier continue, or does it continue to scale up with incresaed range? Hmm, perhaps it should increase the multiplier again at 19th level and continue into epic. Does it kick in as soon they get +10 threat range (level 9), or the next time, (level 11)? At 9th level, obviously. What would the threat range/multiplier of a 19th level Rogue be? I'm considering have it increase once again at 19th level (which is exactly when you are guaranteed a critical hit every time during a surprise assualt). It would be +20 threat range with (after some deliberation on my part) +2 multiplier. I love the idea. But it wouldn't give the same feeling during play as you get rolling a handful of d6s. It's a joy mages get at higher levels, and something the rogue relishes when they can. That's assuming your game table even has enough d6's to constitute a handful. :) A mighty 19th level rogue that hits 4d6+16 instead of 1d6+4 every time he flanks or surprises an opponent sounds pretty satisfying to me. Mechanically i'd say it might be slithly too good. People would maximise the effects by wielding "# Burst" weapons, etc. Making it +1 threat range and +1 every two levels thereafter (max +10) seems more fitting. As if they can't do the same with sneak attack!? The damage from a <energy> burst weapon is stacking, and does not factor into a critical. Same with standard sneak attack. Overpowered? I think not. As is, this variant either deals less or highly comparable damage (a small amount more at the really high levels, but that's the tradeoff you get for a less satisfying fist of dice :D ). Compare a medium-size 20th rogue Dex 18 with Weapon Finesse and sneak attack to one with this variant, each with a +3 shocking burst short sword. The one with sneak attack deals 1d6+7+1d10+10d6 damage (average 51), and the one with surprise assault deals 4d6+28+3d10 damage (average 58.5). As a middle ground, adding a chain of feats called Critical Sneak Attack, Improved Critical Sneak Attack and Greater Critical Sneak Attack could work also. The prerequisite would be maybe 3d6, 6d6 and 9d6 SA dice respectivley and increase your threat range +2, +4 and +6 respectivley on a Sneak Attack. I havn't done the maths, so I can't vouch for balance, but I don't see anything immediatley overpowered about it. Not what I'm trying to accomplish. :rolleyes: EDIT: Also, I've deduced the fact that the critical multiplier MUST continue to increase into epic levels, or else surprise assault will grow useless because by 19th level there is a guaranteed critical with any weapon during a surprise assault. ;)
Cifer 04-16-06, 05:15 PM	Ok, some more questions... since a threat does not equal a hit except with a nat20, I daresay this would make weapons with a higher multiplier better than those with a high threat range. Say you need to roll a 15 to hit and get +5 crit range (and a +1 multiplier). Let's compare the falchion and the punching dagger: Dagger has a crit range of 19-5=14 and a *3 multiplier. Sadly, when rolling a 14 you hit nothing although you would threaten, since you don't hit anything with them. Punching dagger would be 20-5=15 and a *4 multiplier. No point wasted and one multiplier better. This is, of course, a rather minor (dis-)advantage, but it is there. As well, using crits as sneak attacks will make the choice of weapon more important, or rather, more untypical. Since rogues often don't have a lot of strength, they will need weapon damage as their main damage source - do you want to see greataxe-sneakattacks? I don't.
Verelor 04-16-06, 06:51 PM	since a threat does not equal a hit except with a nat20, I daresay this would make weapons with a higher multiplier better than those with a high threat range. A critical threat equals a critical hit if the second roll succeeds against AC at all. If the second roll had to be a natural 20, then for 1/20 threat range weapons there would be only a 1 oout of 400 chance for a critical hit! :eek: Sadly, when rolling a 14 you hit nothing although you would threaten, since you don't hit anything with them. Um...what?? :confused: As well, using crits as sneak attacks will make the choice of weapon more important, or rather, more untypical. Of course. Some weapons have always simply been better than other weapons. I disdain a crackpot socialist approach to weapons usefulness. :D Since rogues often don't have a lot of strength, they will need weapon damage as their main damage source - do you want to see greataxe-sneakattacks? I don't. 1. Which is why most rogues get the weapon finesse feat sooner or later. 2. I doubt any rogue will want to waste a precious feat in order to be proficient with the greataxe. :D
Cifer 04-16-06, 07:05 PM	A critical threat equals a critical hit if the second roll succeeds against AC at all. A critical threat can equal a critical hit only if the first roll succeeds against AC at all. Only a 20 is an automatic hit. If your threat range goes that far down, you will threaten more often than hit, which would be rather nonsensical. Of course. Some weapons have always simply been better than other weapons. I disdain a crackpot socialist approach to weapons usefulness. I, on the other hand, believe that a greataxe in the kidneys doesn't differ that much from a dagger in the kidneys. 1. Which is why most rogues get the weapon finesse feat sooner or later. And what does weapon finesse do about weapon damage? 2. I doubt any rogue will want to waste a precious feat in order to be proficient with the greataxe. Since many rogue builds dib a little into fighter anyway, they don't even have to waste a feat.
Verelor 04-16-06, 07:15 PM	I, on the other hand, believe that a greataxe in the kidneys doesn't differ that much from a dagger in the kidneys. Both can injure your kidneys, true, but while one stabs or pokes your kidney the other one cleaves it into two halves . :P And what does weapon finesse do about weapon damage? Nothing. It significantly improves their ability, however, to contact blows whatsoever, which is significantly more important than dealing 3 extra points of damage due to great strength at any level. Since many rogue builds dib a little into fighter anyway, they don't even have to waste a feat. Many, but certainly not most, and far from half.
FlameLover 04-16-06, 07:37 PM	Sorry about some of the points I mentioned in my above post - it's just a knee-jerk reaction from using dual-wielded kukris too many times. The d6s are just so fun though. I'm running a game currently with a TWF rogue and when he hits on both attacks (reasonably likely with +6 attack on each) he gets to rol 7d6 (3d6 from each SA hand and 1d6 from rapier) + 1d4 (dagger) +6 (+1 from magic bonus and +2 from strength each). Although your method seams balanced, I just can't imagine igving up that feeling of dropping a whole tonne of dice onto the table and counting them up, your damage total getting higher and higher... best bit is that everyone at the table helps count them up too! They have seperate hoards they count up and then total there sub-totals together, etc. Although it will get crazy at level 20. +20d6 if both hit. Even all my group put together don't have that many d6s.
theblindman 04-19-06, 03:22 PM	I, on the other hand, believe that a greataxe in the kidneys doesn't differ that much from a dagger in the kidneys. That's an excellent thing to believe, and while it may be true in the real world, it has very little to do with the actual D&D mechanics. Daggers do piddling damage, greataxes do fairly substantial damage. That's just the dice, regardless of whether it's a normal or critical hit. In general you can make the argument that the damage values in D&D are grossly under-rated. That's something I would agree with.
FlameLover 04-19-06, 07:35 PM	You see, hit points cannot accuratley portray realism because of high many you can have at higher levels. The discrepency between commoners and even a level 10 wizard is so vast that a weapon's base damage means nothing - it becomes all about the enhancements. A good example is the Bastardsword. Waste a feat to go from 4.5 to 5.5 average damage. When you could have just used a longsword, and by level 7 that bonus damage is already useless to you. The only way to have realistic, ye balanced, sneak attacks (IMO ofcourse) is to use the wound and vitality points variant or to entirley re-write the system so that weapon damage scales or something. EDIT: Actually I just realized something. You ability to take damage (HP) is tied to your "skill" (level). Your ability to deal damage is mainly weapon-dependant (except some things like Power Attack or Sneak Attack). This means at higher-levels you must be using super-magic items otherwise your not doing anything close to "damage". This inspires a variant for me where every time you get a new attack/round, you also add again the weapons damage as a bonus. So a longsword would do 2d8 in the hands of a level 6 fighter, etc.
Verelor 04-19-06, 08:18 PM	The wound/vitality system of Unearthed Arcana is wonderful, and quite a bit more realistic. In general you can make the argument that the damage values in D&D are grossly under-rated. That's something I would agree with. I wouldn't say so. Most "average" people in real life are only equivelant to a level 1 to 4 commoner, which means low low hit points. A 1d12 damage weapon like a greataxe could down such an "average" person in a single well-placed strike. Case rested. :P
theblindman 04-19-06, 08:44 PM	EDIT: Actually I just realized something. You ability to take damage (HP) is tied to your "skill" (level). Your ability to deal damage is mainly weapon-dependant (except some things like Power Attack or Sneak Attack). This means at higher-levels you must be using super-magic items otherwise your not doing anything close to "damage". This inspires a variant for me where every time you get a new attack/round, you also add again the weapons damage as a bonus. So a longsword would do 2d8 in the hands of a level 6 fighter, etc. That's a really good idea, actually. I'd like to see it when it's finished. ;) Most "average" people in real life are only equivelant to a level 1 to 4 commoner, which means low low hit points. A 1d12 damage weapon like a greataxe could down such an "average" person in a single well-placed strike. Case rested. That's definitely true. But while a well-placed dagger could take down anybody in real life, even a critical hit wouldn't necessarily knock off a 1st level commoner (roll a 1, multiply by two). That's even with the vitality system. The basic problem is that there's no way to just kill someone by stabbing them through the neck, or chest, or whatever, with a small weapon like a dagger. Now, there are very concrete reasons for this, namely that that would be no fun at all for players. Given the context that this is a game it makes sense for the rules to be built "unrealistically." Anyway, we're getting off topic. Sorry to the OP.
Mufflon 04-20-06, 11:10 AM	I kinda like the idea of Sneak Attacks increasing the chance of a critical hit, though I believe it need a bit of polishing and balancing. For example once you get to the higher levels (13+) the further increase in threat range seems pointless, because when rolling that low you'd miss anyway. And, as has been mentioned by other posters, it becomes much more important to have a weapon with a high base damage. Imagine this: The Rogue Farmer! A half-orc rogue19/figher1 with a focus on strength. He has a str modifier of +6 (easily achievable at level 20) and wields a +3 Shocking burst Scythe. With each succesful Sneak Attack he lands he will deal an avarage of (5+9+3)X6 + 5. Thats 107 damage in one attack. He gets to make three of those each round.
Verelor 04-20-06, 07:14 PM	Critical hits ARE what represent hitting someone in a votal area and doing major amounts of damage. That's why a house rule for called shots is somewhat inconsistent. :) Also, you underestimate humanity with your assessments. A well-trained military combattant can get shot in nonvital areas (such as the lungs or head) multiple times, even over ten times in some cases, and still keep fighting if they are really willing to pull through and are pumped full of adrenaline. So yes, even the Wound Points system gives us too much credit, but our race isn't all hit-or-miss weaklings, you get that impression because we live in western modernized times :D . Imagine this: The Rogue Farmer! A half-orc rogue19/figher1 with a focus on strength. He has a str modifier of +6 (easily achievable at level 20) and wields a +3 Shocking burst Scythe. With each succesful Sneak Attack he lands he will deal an avarage of (5+9+3)X6 + 5. Thats 107 damage in one attack. He gets to make three of those each round. 1. Most rogues aren't part of a race with high strength 2. Most rogues do not concentrate on strength 3. This is a surprise assault, not a sneak attack!! :P 4. You only get to hit once with a surprise assault or sneak attack each round (I think...) 5. F*** powergaming one way or another. The DM is not a doormat and has a brain, and he/she uses it. If everything is judged at worst case scenario, then almost everything is overpowered in every concievable way. Try something similar with standard sneak attack A standard sneak attack half-orc rogue19/figher1 with a focus on strength. He has a str modifier of +6 (easily achievable at level 20) and wields a +2 Shocking burst thundering Scythe. Average (5+9+6) +5 +12 + 35 or 72 on a standard hit. Average (5+9+2)X4 + 5 + 12 + 35 or 116 on a critical hit. So yeah, sneak attack eventually becomes weaker than surprise assault (but is initially significantly stronger!), but I already said that's some compensation you get for a less satisfying hand of dice.
Xeviat-DM 04-21-06, 01:26 AM	The way to balance is is that it doubles your threat range. 20 goes 20 > 19 > 18 > 17 ... 19-20 goes > 17-20 > 15-20 > 13-20 ... and 18-20 goes > 15-20 > 12-20 > 9-20 ... That way, it is fair to high multiplier weapons. But, you don't have it double every odd level, but every five levels (1, 5, 10, 15, 20), that way it's a little more staggered. The rogue's abilities woudl need to be jumbled around a bit. I have been looking into this option, since I read it when you first posted it, as a method of making sneak attacks fit into my wound system a little better. One point of advice, though; you have to give all characters VP. You can not give first level warriors VP if you wish, but give them their 2nd and further hit dice. Otherwise, they are not worth their CR.
theblindman 04-21-06, 11:27 AM	Critical hits ARE what represent hitting someone in a votal area and doing major amounts of damage. That's why a house rule for called shots is somewhat inconsistent. Right, but it's not really a "critical" hit if it only does two points of damage. That's all I'm saying. The wound system handles this pretty well, but it's still not quite right. But thanks for the argument. I hadn't really considered the relationship between called shots and critical hits. And just so I can pretend like I'm still on topic: I think you could only use this variant if you're not using the Wound system. It'd be okay with standard HP or recovery system, but with the Wound system at high levels it'd get totally over-powered since Wound Points don't increase as you level up.
Xeviat-DM 04-25-06, 02:18 AM	I think you could only use this variant if you're not using the Wound system. It'd be okay with standard HP or recovery system, but with the Wound system at high levels it'd get totally over-powered since Wound Points don't increase as you level up. On the contrary, I think this variant would work perfectly in a WP/VP game. A sneak attack should not deal vitality damage, I'm sorry ... Rogue - "I get into sneak attack position and strike!" rolls attack and damage DM - "Alright, you hit, and sink your dagger into his kidney." Rogue - "How's he look, is he dead?" DM - Checks hp "He looks a little tired" (read: he took VP damage) Creatures who are immune to crits (as in "has wp equal to vp") are also immune to sneak attacks. I really think that they should be tied to each other. Oh, and PS: If your players aren't finding ways to increase their WP as they gain levels, they aren't trying hard enough. Every fighter I know picks up +X str items, and every wizard picks up +X int items; and everyone I've seen in WP games fights over who gets the first +X con item the party finds. Other items should be made for VP/WP systems to boost WP, and you can always take feats to do it too.