Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kintara 02-21-06, 02:47 PM	I was just thinking about the "Players roll all the dice" variant in UA, and it occurred to me that D&D is missing a whole level of tactical variety by not having something happen when you successfully defend against an attack. All that happens now is that something doesn't happen, i.e. you don't get hit. What if, instead, you could inflict something on the enemies who missed or gain some sort of edge through their failures? I don't have this at all fleshed out, so any ideas would be appreciated. One idea I had is that a missed blow would move you down in the initiative, starting the next round. For instance, you could have an initiative list like this: Orc Assassin 24 Fighter 21 Rogue 16 Orc Goons x4 14 Cleric 13 Wizard 4 The Orc Assassin attacks the Rogue and misses (i.e. the Rogue successfully defends). Next round he would move down a "slot" (with a score one below the closest character) and the list would look like this: Fighter 21 Orc Assassin 20 Rogue 16 Orc Goons x4 14 Cleric 13 Wizard 4 For someone to move down in the initiative, they would have to miss every attack they made (otherwise it would penalize iterative attacks too much). Also, if there are multiple "whiffs," then you resolve from the "top" of the list to the bottom. So, let's say that the Rogue, two Goons, and the Assassin all whiff in the above round. The list would be resolved like this: Fighter 21 Orc Assassin 15 Orc Goons x2 14 Rogue 13 Cleric 13 (lower Dex) Orc Goons x2 12 Wizard 4 The trouble with this idea is that it gets tricky with, say, those Orc Goons. After a while the goons would be scattered across the initiative, and that would bog the game down. Even without the goons, this method might be tricky to keep track of, especially if there are a lot of whiffs. Another idea would be to give people a list of effects to inflict or benefit from on a successful defense, but I don't know precisely what sort of effects would work best. You could even hand out "defense points" to accrue through an encounter, and then spend on better effects. What do you think?
Vaelan 02-21-06, 10:09 PM	There is a feat in Complete Warrior by the name of Defensive Strike that reflects this idea to an extent. Could you, perhaps, explain what you'd like your system to do that Defensive Strike does not? I think both you and those who wish to comment on your idea would find that helpful.
Mist of Shadows 02-21-06, 10:30 PM	It sounds like a logistics nightmare. You are adding complexity where it doesn't need to be. Now if you really wanted to be mean you could say if they miss by 5 or more you get an attack of opp on them. But what works for the goose works for the gander. Oh you missed that dragon's stupid high ac, it now gets an attack of opp on you. Well crap. Honestly it's more trouble then it's work in most games combat drags on slow enough.
Kintara 02-22-06, 02:59 AM	I threw out the initiative thing sort of as a lark, despite the amount of space I devoted to it. Feel free to do something with it or not. The thing I'm actually aiming at is a discussion about the core of the combat mechanics. What I'm interested in is making defense as interesting as offense. Right now nothing immediately interesting happens when you miss a roll for an attack. Sure it has consequences, but why not also make something quantifiable happen for that defense? I think that if you can make either result of a roll interesting, then the game can't help but be more fun. I think that's one reason why critical fumbles are so popular. People crave to have their failures mean that something interesting happens, even if it's bad. I don't want to just supply options like feats, but come up with a system to add another layer to combat that isn't there as much as it could be. I don't particularly like my initiative idea, as is doesn't really do this very much. All it does is raise the stakes for failure in a rather abstract way that takes a lot of bookkeeping for the DM. I would much prefer something that makes combat more interesting for the players. The whole idea would be to make combat more fun by making it more rich. If what I'm rambling about doesn't make any sense, then perhaps I'll be able to come up with a good example of what I'm looking for later. As a closer, I'll just toss out some things that a good defense roll (or a miss by the enemy) could do mechanically. An enemy might over-commit to an attack and put himself in a poor position to make another attack or defend against yours. An enemy might waste energy if he repeatedly flails uselessly against your superior defense, or get frustrated and discouraged. You might be able to capitalize on a miss when you're in trouble by dashing out of melee range. Some possible options to reward a successful defense: Positioning (extra five-foot steps, perhaps, or something like them? or some more abstract representation of your stance in melee? flatfootedness?) Morale modifiers (due to enemy frustration/your confidence) Exhaustion (fatigue from multiple failed attacks) Circumstance modifiers (from skillful manipulation of the battlefield while avoiding blows) AoOs (either getting to use one or expending your enemy's supply of them)
Lina_Inverse 02-22-06, 03:50 AM	Because thats A)not following KISS B)punishing offense and rewarding defense. You should punish defense and reward offense, because otherwise everyone holds there actions in the RACE TO INITIVE ZERO.
Vaelan 02-22-06, 04:02 AM	You should punish defense and reward offense, because otherwise everyone holds there actions in the RACE TO INITIVE ZERO. That is why defense should not be overly rewarded. It is not a reason to punish defense. If both offense and defense were equally rewarding, it would lead to two (potentially) interesting, yet different, ways to approach combat.
Lina_Inverse 02-23-06, 06:46 PM	That is why defense should not be overly rewarded. It is not a reason to punish defense. If both offense and defense were equally rewarding, it would lead to two (potentially) interesting, yet different, ways to approach combat. Oh boy here goes. This will be a bit long winded. Everything you do for a charecters combat ability affects one of two things. Your ability to kill your opponent, and your ability to avoid death. Every way of altering that is just pretty dressing, it still comes down to those. If you reward high defense with an offensive component you are forceing the entire game to be solely defensive, since defense influences both aspects of your charecter, while offense only affects one. Thus players will focus exclusively on defense, since it increases there offense anyways, eventully charecters will build themselves to the point where normal opponents cannot affect them, and thus they achieve 100% safety and HAVENT SACRAFICED THERE ABILITY TO DEFEAT THERE OPPONENT.
Vaelan 02-23-06, 11:42 PM	If you reward high defense with an offensive component you are forceing the entire game to be solely defensive, since defense influences both aspects of your charecter, while offense only affects one. You're ignoring magnitude entirely. The fact is, offense is stronger than defense in D&D. By giving defense a small amount of offensive impact, you're simply making defensive options as desirable as offensive options.