Sorcerer house rule for consideration [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sorcerer house rule for consideration [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Edheldūr
01-07-05, 12:52 AM So, by the core rules wizards can choose to specialize in one school or not, so I was wondering if something like that could be done for sorcerers and then I remembered the Bloodline feats that appeared on Dragon #311 and #325.

I'm considering allowing sorcerers to take one base bloodline feat at first level or none, making this choice similar to a wizard's school specialization. Basically, each one of these feats give sorcerers one extra spell known per spell level in exchange for a descriptor of spells prohibited to him. For example, if one sorcerer chooses the Fire Bloodline he gains 1 specific fire-related spell known per level and can't cast or learn spells with the cold descriptor.

School specialization gives wizards the equivalent of (roughly) 9 Extra Slot feats (albeit limited to a school spell) and prohibits them from learning/casting spells from 2 (or 1) other school, while bloodline feats give sorcerers the equivalent or (again, roughly) 9 Extra Spell feats (albeit limited to one specific spell per level) and prohibits them from learning/casting spells with certain descriptor.

However I'm just not sure it would be a balanced option. Flavorwise I love the idea, but I'd like to hear some opinions.
Mac Awol
01-07-05, 02:50 AM :) It sounds fair enough, since Sorcerers to begin with are rather limited compared to Wizards, but you could do it in several ways:
1. Give all Sorcerers a bonus feat at 1st level, which will have impact on the way they cast spells, like Eshrew Materials, Sudden Metamagic Feats, Bloodline Feats, etc, etc... (This will make the Sorcerer slightly stronger at the early levels, where they are comparatively equal to a Wizard)
2. Give all Sorcerers a bonus feat at 1st level, In exchange for the Summon Familiar Ability. (This won't change the Strength of the Sorcerer, but add a flexibility that makes each sorcerer even more individual)
3. Rework the Sorcerer more throughly to make his nature more dependent on the origin of the magic (This takes a lot of work to avoid all the traps of powergaming, but if it works, the nature of your games will change drastically)
Cullwch
01-09-05, 02:28 PM I tried posting on this a a year or two ago; I really liked the idea. From my own limited gameplay with the system, it rewarded sorceror characters who developed a backstory: Here's my specialization, here's why: I'm descended from blank. I came up with a couple of new bloodline feats and an alternate heritage spell list; I'll see if I can find them or recreate them for you, if you're interested. As for mechanics, I found that it simply made sorceror's more versatile. Usually the spell lists from Dragon 3** had a lot of evocation spells, which let the sorceror player spend his precious spell slots on more practical magic. Since Sorcerors get to trade out spells in 3.5, that's become less important, but I still doubt that the addition of bloodline feats will be seriously unbalancing.
Nani?
01-09-05, 02:46 PM Here is a breakdown of how I have used the bloodlines in UA to accomplish something simular to what your proposing as far as bloodlines are concerned. I'm also considering useing the Generic's in UA to come up as model for varient sorcerers.

1. Each Sorcerer would start with a minor bloodline. They would not have to buy the "bloodline" levels.

2. Any skill bonused on the list would be a class skill even if the character had not acquired the bonus yet.

3. Any spell on the list is considered a sorcerer spell and may take it at the appropriate level. If they already have the spell when they get it as a bonus spell, they may add another spell from the wizard/sorcerer list. The once per day is replaced and this spell is added to the spells known.

4. The character may "switch out" one ability from an intermediate or major bloodline to make this option more "sorcerer" friendly. They must be the same type; skill bonus for skill bonus, feat for feat. For example, someone with a celestial bloodline may replace the wisdom bonus at 12th level with the charisma bonus on the intermediate or major bloodlines.

5. As a feat, the sorcerer may replace the minor bloodline with an intermediate bloodline. They may now "switch out" two abilities. I personally would not allow a player to increase this to major bloodline.

6. The DM may allow the player to design their own "bloodline". This may not be a bloodline per say but something to represent the "glimmer" of magical ability. This would have to be closely monitored.

7. This option would replace Draconic feats. But those feats could be used as bloodline replacements, and not always as "Draconic" abilities. For example, draconic flight could be used as an air elemental option and draconic claw could be a lycanthrope bloodline option.

8. This could be combined with other common sorcerer fixes. For example, you could still give the character eschew materials and add use magical device as class skill at 1st level if you felt that was appropriate.

All the best,

Nani?
Cullwch
01-09-05, 09:46 PM Here's the bloodline feats I talked about earlier I'll post them and then post my commentary.

Bloodline Feats

Dragon Issue 311 gave an article for bloodline feats for sorcerors. Basically, instead of draconic heritage, sorcerors could have any magical ancestry. The bloodline feats presented dealt with fey, air, water, fire, earth, dragon, fiends, and celestials as ancestors. I wanted something a bit more specific, but I fear my bloodline feats are a bit overpowered.

Here are my ideas.

Storm Bloodline [Bloodline Feat]

You are descended from a creature of storm: lightning literally courses through your veins. Small static shocks are a nearly constant occurance. Physically, your features are similiar to those of your race, but the ridges and valleys of your irises seem to sparkle with electricity. Occassionally, the Storm Bloodline results in blue hair or skin, but such variations are uncommon. Alternatively, your physical features may revolve around blizzards, hailstorms, or tornadoes. For example, some of the members of the Storm bloodline have incredibly blue white skin, with matching eyes. Others have dusky gray skin, with eyes like the sky before rain.

Very few magical matings result in Storm progeny. Storm Giants, of course, are the most common ancestors, but a few cloud giants, the occasional dragon, and fey storm-riders (See fey feature: Energy Fey, part 3 of 5) all have the potential to produce sorcerors with thunder in their veins. Many sorcerous characters reflect their specific magical ancestor; Storm bloodline personalities develop based on the type of storm the character is most like. All those who choose to develop their "inclement" heritage tend heavily toward chaos as opposed to law, but Storm character may be of any moral alignment. (Good, Neutral, or Evil)

Prerequisites: Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation, ability to summon a familiar.

Benefit: Your Storm ancestry gives you two bonus spells known
per spell level, but it does not affect your spells per day. Starting at 1st level, you learn the following spells.

1. Obscuring Mist, Shocking Grasp

2. Fog Cloud, Shout

3. Sleet Storm, Call Lightning

4. Air Walk, Solid Fog

5. Control Winds, Ice Storm

6. Control Weather, Chain Lightning

7. Reverse Gravity, Wind Walk

8. Whirlwind, Thunderstorm*

9. Storm of Vengeance

* - An "Energy Substitution: Lightning" Firestorm

Special: Storms rarely, if ever, touch earth. In addition, storms associated with the Storm Bloodline do NOT rain fire or Brimstone. A character with the Storm bloodline cannot learn new spells with the Fire or Earth descriptors, and all such spells on their spell lists are removed.

Ride the Wild Wind [Bloodline Feat]

You have the ability to take advantage of the heavy winds associated with inclement weather, and can pick up speed thereby.

Prerequisites: Storm Bloodline, Ability to cast third level arcane spells without preparation.

Benefit: In light or stronger winds, you have the ability to add a multiple of five to your base speed, as long as you are going "with the wind." Tacking reduces your speed improvement to 1/2 of the tailwind speed, rounded down to the nearest foot.
Flight speeds are affected similarly. See list below.

Light wind: Add 5 feet to your base land speed, or 10 feet to your base speed if you are flying.

Medium Wind: Add 10 feet to your base land speed, or 20 feet to your speed if you are flying.

Strong Wind: Add 15 feet to your base land speed, or 30 to your base speed if you are flying.

Hurricane Winds: Add 25 feet to your base land speed. Tacking is impossible with hurricane force winds blowing behind you, to remain upright you must travel with the wind directly at your back. Note that most hurricane force winds are rotating around a central "eye," so straightforward movement may not be possible.
For those flying, speed increases by 50 feet, but there is a 15% cumulative chance each turn that the character is blown away (see DMG).

Tornado Force Winds: "Riding" Tornado Force winds is next to impossible. Characters with the Ride the Wild Wind feat may attempt to jump into the tornado in the same direction as its spin, and slingshot around the tornado for a 120 feet speed boost, but doing so is incredibly dangerous. Characters who make such attempts have a 65% chance of being sucked into the tornado and of suffering such ill effects as listed in the DMG.
Flying in Tornado Force Winds is impossible, except in rare circumstances. (DM Option: Characters with the "Ride the Wild Wind Feat" may spend an action point (as delineated in the Eberron previews) to attempt to slingshot around a tornado as per their earthbound brethren.)

And a creation by Shadow Shinobi ...

Shadow Bloodline [General]Sorcerers with the Shadow Bloodline are usually descended from Shadow Dragons.Spells1-Shadow Hands, Negative Energy Ray2-Darkness, Veil of Shadow3-Shadow Bolt, Slashing Darkness4-Shadow Conjuration, Armor of Darkness5-Shadow Evocation, Greater Shadow Conjuration6-Shades, Greater Shadow Evocation7-Sword of Darkness, Simalcruam8-Create Greater Undead, Etherealness9-Energy Drain, Soul BindA sorcerer with the Shadow Bloodline feat may not cast positve energy spells or spells that create light.

And now the commentary...

My first feat is probably overpowered, as is the shadow bloodline. To make things more fair, a player might get to choose one of the items I suggested. In my defense, I haven't looked at either of these for a long time; they need a bit of tweaking. As for the "Ride the Wild Wind" feat, I don't know what I was thinking, nor where I would use such a feat, but I thought it was a fun idea. I think what's most important with the bloodline feats is that you provide somewhere for the character to go with their background idea. Don't just make the whole thing about spell specialization; rather, develop "crunchy"
expressions of the characters "fluff."

P.S. - Ride the wild wind might be applied to mounted flyers (griffon riders, pegasus riders, gnomish hang gliders :P) or sailors NPCs, now that I think about it. If so, the ability to cast third level spells requirement ought to be removed.
Edheldūr
01-10-05, 02:11 AM Thanks for all your responses.

Mac Awol: Actually the main reason I started thinking on the bloodline feats idea was preciselly what you mentioned in point 3.

Cullwch: What you posted seems interesting. Maybe it's a little too overpowered for my campaign style, but deffinitely worth looking into. Thanks for sharing them.

Nani?: Unfortunately I don't have UA, so I can't comment much on your ideas.

Now, I just played a session today and tried out my idea. I have only 2 players right now (Rogue/Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster and Sorcerer/Fighter/Eldritch Knight) and both loved the idea. I was just playtesting it, but I didn't see any major problem with the implementation. And actually, both loved the fact that now mechanically their "sorcerer levels" are different from one another (besides having different spells)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edheldūr 01-07-05, 12:52 AM	So, by the core rules wizards can choose to specialize in one school or not, so I was wondering if something like that could be done for sorcerers and then I remembered the Bloodline feats that appeared on Dragon #311 and #325. I'm considering allowing sorcerers to take one base bloodline feat at first level or none, making this choice similar to a wizard's school specialization. Basically, each one of these feats give sorcerers one extra spell known per spell level in exchange for a descriptor of spells prohibited to him. For example, if one sorcerer chooses the Fire Bloodline he gains 1 specific fire-related spell known per level and can't cast or learn spells with the cold descriptor. School specialization gives wizards the equivalent of (roughly) 9 Extra Slot feats (albeit limited to a school spell) and prohibits them from learning/casting spells from 2 (or 1) other school, while bloodline feats give sorcerers the equivalent or (again, roughly) 9 Extra Spell feats (albeit limited to one specific spell per level) and prohibits them from learning/casting spells with certain descriptor. However I'm just not sure it would be a balanced option. Flavorwise I love the idea, but I'd like to hear some opinions.
Mac Awol 01-07-05, 02:50 AM	:) It sounds fair enough, since Sorcerers to begin with are rather limited compared to Wizards, but you could do it in several ways: 1. Give all Sorcerers a bonus feat at 1st level, which will have impact on the way they cast spells, like Eshrew Materials, Sudden Metamagic Feats, Bloodline Feats, etc, etc... (This will make the Sorcerer slightly stronger at the early levels, where they are comparatively equal to a Wizard) 2. Give all Sorcerers a bonus feat at 1st level, In exchange for the Summon Familiar Ability. (This won't change the Strength of the Sorcerer, but add a flexibility that makes each sorcerer even more individual) 3. Rework the Sorcerer more throughly to make his nature more dependent on the origin of the magic (This takes a lot of work to avoid all the traps of powergaming, but if it works, the nature of your games will change drastically)
Cullwch 01-09-05, 02:28 PM	I tried posting on this a a year or two ago; I really liked the idea. From my own limited gameplay with the system, it rewarded sorceror characters who developed a backstory: Here's my specialization, here's why: I'm descended from blank. I came up with a couple of new bloodline feats and an alternate heritage spell list; I'll see if I can find them or recreate them for you, if you're interested. As for mechanics, I found that it simply made sorceror's more versatile. Usually the spell lists from Dragon 3** had a lot of evocation spells, which let the sorceror player spend his precious spell slots on more practical magic. Since Sorcerors get to trade out spells in 3.5, that's become less important, but I still doubt that the addition of bloodline feats will be seriously unbalancing.
Nani? 01-09-05, 02:46 PM	Here is a breakdown of how I have used the bloodlines in UA to accomplish something simular to what your proposing as far as bloodlines are concerned. I'm also considering useing the Generic's in UA to come up as model for varient sorcerers. 1. Each Sorcerer would start with a minor bloodline. They would not have to buy the "bloodline" levels. 2. Any skill bonused on the list would be a class skill even if the character had not acquired the bonus yet. 3. Any spell on the list is considered a sorcerer spell and may take it at the appropriate level. If they already have the spell when they get it as a bonus spell, they may add another spell from the wizard/sorcerer list. The once per day is replaced and this spell is added to the spells known. 4. The character may "switch out" one ability from an intermediate or major bloodline to make this option more "sorcerer" friendly. They must be the same type; skill bonus for skill bonus, feat for feat. For example, someone with a celestial bloodline may replace the wisdom bonus at 12th level with the charisma bonus on the intermediate or major bloodlines. 5. As a feat, the sorcerer may replace the minor bloodline with an intermediate bloodline. They may now "switch out" two abilities. I personally would not allow a player to increase this to major bloodline. 6. The DM may allow the player to design their own "bloodline". This may not be a bloodline per say but something to represent the "glimmer" of magical ability. This would have to be closely monitored. 7. This option would replace Draconic feats. But those feats could be used as bloodline replacements, and not always as "Draconic" abilities. For example, draconic flight could be used as an air elemental option and draconic claw could be a lycanthrope bloodline option. 8. This could be combined with other common sorcerer fixes. For example, you could still give the character eschew materials and add use magical device as class skill at 1st level if you felt that was appropriate. All the best, Nani?
Cullwch 01-09-05, 09:46 PM	Here's the bloodline feats I talked about earlier I'll post them and then post my commentary. Bloodline Feats Dragon Issue 311 gave an article for bloodline feats for sorcerors. Basically, instead of draconic heritage, sorcerors could have any magical ancestry. The bloodline feats presented dealt with fey, air, water, fire, earth, dragon, fiends, and celestials as ancestors. I wanted something a bit more specific, but I fear my bloodline feats are a bit overpowered. Here are my ideas. Storm Bloodline [Bloodline Feat] You are descended from a creature of storm: lightning literally courses through your veins. Small static shocks are a nearly constant occurance. Physically, your features are similiar to those of your race, but the ridges and valleys of your irises seem to sparkle with electricity. Occassionally, the Storm Bloodline results in blue hair or skin, but such variations are uncommon. Alternatively, your physical features may revolve around blizzards, hailstorms, or tornadoes. For example, some of the members of the Storm bloodline have incredibly blue white skin, with matching eyes. Others have dusky gray skin, with eyes like the sky before rain. Very few magical matings result in Storm progeny. Storm Giants, of course, are the most common ancestors, but a few cloud giants, the occasional dragon, and fey storm-riders (See fey feature: Energy Fey, part 3 of 5) all have the potential to produce sorcerors with thunder in their veins. Many sorcerous characters reflect their specific magical ancestor; Storm bloodline personalities develop based on the type of storm the character is most like. All those who choose to develop their "inclement" heritage tend heavily toward chaos as opposed to law, but Storm character may be of any moral alignment. (Good, Neutral, or Evil) Prerequisites: Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation, ability to summon a familiar. Benefit: Your Storm ancestry gives you two bonus spells known per spell level, but it does not affect your spells per day. Starting at 1st level, you learn the following spells. 1. Obscuring Mist, Shocking Grasp 2. Fog Cloud, Shout 3. Sleet Storm, Call Lightning 4. Air Walk, Solid Fog 5. Control Winds, Ice Storm 6. Control Weather, Chain Lightning 7. Reverse Gravity, Wind Walk 8. Whirlwind, Thunderstorm* 9. Storm of Vengeance * - An "Energy Substitution: Lightning" Firestorm Special: Storms rarely, if ever, touch earth. In addition, storms associated with the Storm Bloodline do NOT rain fire or Brimstone. A character with the Storm bloodline cannot learn new spells with the Fire or Earth descriptors, and all such spells on their spell lists are removed. Ride the Wild Wind [Bloodline Feat] You have the ability to take advantage of the heavy winds associated with inclement weather, and can pick up speed thereby. Prerequisites: Storm Bloodline, Ability to cast third level arcane spells without preparation. Benefit: In light or stronger winds, you have the ability to add a multiple of five to your base speed, as long as you are going "with the wind." Tacking reduces your speed improvement to 1/2 of the tailwind speed, rounded down to the nearest foot. Flight speeds are affected similarly. See list below. Light wind: Add 5 feet to your base land speed, or 10 feet to your base speed if you are flying. Medium Wind: Add 10 feet to your base land speed, or 20 feet to your speed if you are flying. Strong Wind: Add 15 feet to your base land speed, or 30 to your base speed if you are flying. Hurricane Winds: Add 25 feet to your base land speed. Tacking is impossible with hurricane force winds blowing behind you, to remain upright you must travel with the wind directly at your back. Note that most hurricane force winds are rotating around a central "eye," so straightforward movement may not be possible. For those flying, speed increases by 50 feet, but there is a 15% cumulative chance each turn that the character is blown away (see DMG). Tornado Force Winds: "Riding" Tornado Force winds is next to impossible. Characters with the Ride the Wild Wind feat may attempt to jump into the tornado in the same direction as its spin, and slingshot around the tornado for a 120 feet speed boost, but doing so is incredibly dangerous. Characters who make such attempts have a 65% chance of being sucked into the tornado and of suffering such ill effects as listed in the DMG. Flying in Tornado Force Winds is impossible, except in rare circumstances. (DM Option: Characters with the "Ride the Wild Wind Feat" may spend an action point (as delineated in the Eberron previews) to attempt to slingshot around a tornado as per their earthbound brethren.) And a creation by Shadow Shinobi ... Shadow Bloodline [General]Sorcerers with the Shadow Bloodline are usually descended from Shadow Dragons.Spells1-Shadow Hands, Negative Energy Ray2-Darkness, Veil of Shadow3-Shadow Bolt, Slashing Darkness4-Shadow Conjuration, Armor of Darkness5-Shadow Evocation, Greater Shadow Conjuration6-Shades, Greater Shadow Evocation7-Sword of Darkness, Simalcruam8-Create Greater Undead, Etherealness9-Energy Drain, Soul BindA sorcerer with the Shadow Bloodline feat may not cast positve energy spells or spells that create light. And now the commentary... My first feat is probably overpowered, as is the shadow bloodline. To make things more fair, a player might get to choose one of the items I suggested. In my defense, I haven't looked at either of these for a long time; they need a bit of tweaking. As for the "Ride the Wild Wind" feat, I don't know what I was thinking, nor where I would use such a feat, but I thought it was a fun idea. I think what's most important with the bloodline feats is that you provide somewhere for the character to go with their background idea. Don't just make the whole thing about spell specialization; rather, develop "crunchy" expressions of the characters "fluff." P.S. - Ride the wild wind might be applied to mounted flyers (griffon riders, pegasus riders, gnomish hang gliders :P) or sailors NPCs, now that I think about it. If so, the ability to cast third level spells requirement ought to be removed.
Edheldūr 01-10-05, 02:11 AM	Thanks for all your responses. Mac Awol: Actually the main reason I started thinking on the bloodline feats idea was preciselly what you mentioned in point 3. Cullwch: What you posted seems interesting. Maybe it's a little too overpowered for my campaign style, but deffinitely worth looking into. Thanks for sharing them. Nani?: Unfortunately I don't have UA, so I can't comment much on your ideas. Now, I just played a session today and tried out my idea. I have only 2 players right now (Rogue/Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster and Sorcerer/Fighter/Eldritch Knight) and both loved the idea. I was just playtesting it, but I didn't see any major problem with the implementation. And actually, both loved the fact that now mechanically their "sorcerer levels" are different from one another (besides having different spells)