Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wil_Hyral 03-09-04, 06:29 AM	This thread is in the interest of fixing the sorcerer in a system that utilizes spell points from the UA. This thread welcomes discussion only if the poster agrees that the sorcerer is done unjustly by spell point games. If you do want to debate the sorcerer as it is with spell points, Lina Inverse (*Hem*) already started a thread about just bemoaning the wounds of the class in said setting. You can argue there, as it really doesn't have a goal in the first couple posts. Our problem is a broad one. We apparently like the spell point system enough to implement and use it. Implementation of US legislature has its own committee and council from the House of Reps, so clearly it's never an easy thing, even in this case. Problem details: -Spontaneity isn't any longer special to the sorcerer, bard, healing domain for clerics and some various other pockets of spellcasting. Spontaneous casters are due a refund of some type with the spell point system. How much was spontaneity worth in something else, such as feats, skill points or otherwise? -By the time level 20 rolls around (and even later) hit points aren't the same fad they earlier were. Saving throws make or break an encounter, often in one small roll. Sorcerers are given more incentive to cast damage spells though, because they pay less to "charge it up." Is this a fair measure? If damage really is less significant of a number in higher levels, paying less for it shouldn't really be considered a benefit. If you don't agree with this problem, simply ignore it. If you do agree, please do consider it. If you agree but don't think it's a significant problem, again just ignore. I just thought metamagic feats combined with some upper-level stuff can result in more common rolls of a save or die than in lower levels. -Sorcerers were once known for versatility, albeit a daily very narrow versatility. They could do various things on the spot, and did not have to think ahead. Now every class can reflect such spontaneity. How can their unique spontaneous concept be maintained? And of course, any other discussion of problems yet unmentioned is welcome here too. I guess I'll take a stab... Count Arioch mentioned giving Domain Wizard the boot and measure for measure, making a Domain Sorcerer. That could be a way of repaying the debt caused by no more unique spontaneity. I heart the battle sorcerer. To me, it maintains this.. "dashing version of a wizard" feel that sorcerers once had before spell point implimentation. How about giving them wizard progression spell points and calling them "Sorcerers"? Of course, the implementation of this is ridiculous because existing sorcerers would suddenly look at their hands and go "holy crap I can use weapons and act 1.5 as many times per six seconds!" More spell points is an obvious answer. Anyone care to wager how many would balance them? I remember when I first got the book, I thought only prepare-casters had to charge up damage spells, and it struck me as a huge benefit to the sorcerer. What if we simply said sorcerers don't have to pay extra to charge a spell, that it is automatically fitted to the sorc level? A little much? I dunno, just a thought. Please continue. edit for the title
Thelon Fairblade 03-09-04, 08:52 AM	I wouldn't go the more spell points route as the primary fix. My suggestions would be * discount on spell point costs * have high Charisma apply to spells known as well as bonus spell points. * Give the sorcerer a save bonus against spells he Knows.
Naga_Slayer 03-09-04, 09:40 AM	We apparently like the spell point system enough to implement and use it. Yet people still hate psionics....;)
Xorial 03-09-04, 10:25 AM	Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade I wouldn't go the more spell points route as the primary fix. My suggestions would be * discount on spell point costs * have high Charisma apply to spells known as well as bonus spell points. * Give the sorcerer a save bonus against spells he Knows. I wouldnt give a cost discount. The Charisma suggestion is what I would go with, in addition to using the arcane domains for the sorcerer & not the wizard. I made a suggestion on another thread that combining the recharge system with spell points would be a good fix. The sorcererwould then be able to cast his highest level spells more often. Since the spellpoints would be the balancing factor, you wouldnt need to use the specific recharge times for spells, just use the general recharge times for all spells. I've always thought that a sorcerer should get a bonus to saves against spells that he knows. Maybe a +1 or +2. The bonus could be applied to the caster level when trying to dispell or counter spell those spells to.
Ulden Throatbane 03-09-04, 10:39 AM	One thing that shocked me the most was that the sorcerer had only a small advantage over the wizard in how many spell points they had. A 17 point difference at 20th level, when both wizard and sorcerer have over 200 spell points, is not a lot. By contrast, the sorcerer could cast 33% more spells per day under the regular system. The added damage cost makes up for it somewhat, but overall, I don't think its going to have as much an effect. That's because spells that deal damage by dice are still nerfed overall, and so spellcasters are more likely to use spells that don't deal damage per dice or do a fixed amount of damage. One solution is to make the sorcerer a specilist in casting the spells he knows (bonus to DC and overcoming Spell Resistance). He might not know a lot of spells this way, but good luck trying to resist them :mage:
Xorial 03-09-04, 11:00 AM	One thing to remember about the added cost for damage. The sorcerer gets his spells a level later that the wizard. That means that his minimum damage is usually higer than the wizards. A wizard will cast a fireball at 5d6, without power up. The sorcerer on the other hand will cast it at 6d6. The rules tates that you use the minimum level at which the caster gets access to the spell to determine the level based effects. This is where the sorcerer comes out ahead, for once, of the wizard. This is more of a benefit than you may realize. Those saved points can be used to cast other spells that are not damage dealing ones.
Ulden Throatbane 03-09-04, 11:13 AM	There is that advantage, for sure. But the sorcerer is still going to have to pay more for that spell than an equivelent spell that has a different effect. I would expect both classes to turn to spells that don't rely on damage dice/level to do the work for them (phantasmal killer, summon monster, disintigrate, prismatic spray, meteor swarm, etc.), so the advantage is actually not that great (though it does exist, to be sure).
Kratilim Valqui 03-09-04, 11:34 AM	Or you could use the following : Return the preparation to the non-spontanious classes... You could rule that they still have to preparetheir spells in advance.. In this way, the only advantige the spell point system would have is that the casters could prepare as mutch high lvl spells as they want.... or: Rule that if a wizard wants to be able to cast 10d6 fireballs in stead of 5d6 fireballs, he would have to prepare them like that... In this way it would cost more spell points to prepare a 10d6 fireball... Usefull solutions? Any questions?
Xorial 03-09-04, 11:39 AM	One other thought. You could reverse the normal rules on metamagic & spontaneous casting. If a wizard doesnt prepare a metamagic version of a spell & cast metamagic "on the fly", then it increases the casting time of the spell. Sorcerers under this variation wouldnt increase casting times. The spell points would represent pumping the energy into it, while the wizard doesnt have the "feel" to spontaneously add metamagic.
Woas 03-09-04, 12:14 PM	What i'm thinking is that Wizards have to prepare their spells for the day just like normal, but instead of preparing a fixed amount at each level like they do now (X 1st level spells, Y 2nd level spells, Z 3rd level spells, etc) they instead use their SP to prepare any combo of spells prior to casting. Basically, the wizard spends their SP before they even cast the spell. While the sorcerer spends their SP after they cast a spell. To clearify. Here is a sample mroning after the party wakes up: Joe Joe the Circus Wizard wakes up. He has 30 SP. Normally he can prepare 4 - 1st level spells, 4 - 2nd level, 3 - 3rd and 2 - 4th. But with SP he can prepare any combo of spells that equal his total SP. So with 30 SP, he could forfeit all other spells to prepare 6 5d6 fireballs for that day if he really wants. Maybe he's anticipating heavy combat. (5 SP x 6 = 30 SP). And thats it. No other spells. He can't cast spontaneously. But he gets to choose his spells for the day based off his spell book. A sorcerer is regular. He wakes up and has 39 SP... something more then the wizard. He can only cast from his limited spell list that day just like normal, but can cast those spells spontaneously. Once he casts the spell, he subtracts the SP from his total and keeps on going.
Krelios 03-09-04, 12:46 PM	I like that you want "discussion" but only as long as people agree with your opinion. Some of your points are valid, namely that the sorcerer loses some of his uniqueness when others get spontaneous casting. But mathematically he still has an advantage over all other casters in terms of sheer number of spells available (to cast and to choose from when casting) per day. However, if you are looking to boost the sorcerer even further above the wizard, or re-establish some unique flavor, you may consider the following ideas: 1) Give the sorcerer the same bonus feats that a wizard gets (every five levels). 2) Allow sorcerers to "specialize" like a wizard, gaining one more spell known each level but forsaking two schools entirely (this one is actually pretty powerful). 3) Give the sorcerer more points per day at each level equal to the highest level spell they can cast minus one. In my opinion, the sorcerer is great as it, but these have worked before in games where we just eliminated wizards entirely by combining them with the sorcerer.
Jack Daniel 03-09-04, 12:46 PM	Here's an idea: give the sorcerer what the wizard already has. Free feats at every 5th level. Eschew Materials at level 1 (since Scribe Scroll is a weak feat for a sorcerer, along with most item creation feats) and a free metamagic feat at every 5th level. Rule that since everyone casts spontaneously, metamagic no longer increases casting times(especially Quicken Spell). Hey, it works for metapsionics. That said, the biggest problem with spell points is not what happens to sorcerers, but rather, what happens to the psionic classes. I guess we'll have to wait for the 3.5 PsiHB to be sure, though...
Wil_Hyral 03-09-04, 03:06 PM	Originally posted by Xorial One thing to remember about the added cost for damage. The sorcerer gets his spells a level later that the wizard. That means that his minimum damage is usually higer than the wizards. A wizard will cast a fireball at 5d6, without power up. The sorcerer on the other hand will cast it at 6d6. The rules tates that you use the minimum level at which the caster gets access to the spell to determine the level based effects. This is where the sorcerer comes out ahead, for once, of the wizard. This is more of a benefit than you may realize. Those saved points can be used to cast other spells that are not damage dealing ones. While I do admit that the damage thing is sort of a less obvious advantage that sorcerers do enjoy, think of it on average. Only one point per damage spell doesn't mean a whole world of difference at the end of a 20th level day. To cast a 10d6 fireball, a wizard pays 10 and a sorcerer pays 9. Let's say we have a 20 wiz, 20 sorc, with 22 in their relative stat. For the sake of argument, it's fine to go up or down by like 6 but anything else would be unrealistic. This gives them a bonus of 40 spell points to their pool. The wizard has 272 in total, and the sorcerer has 289. Let's say the wizard casts 27 fireballs, and so does the sorcerer. They're both doing full damage so the sorcerer actually takes an advantage. for 10d6 fireball, the wizard pays a total of 270, and the sorcerer pays 243. The wizard is left with 2 spell points, and it's probably time to cast mage armor and run. The sorcerer has 46, which is enough to cast another 5 fireballs and have a spell point left over. So rounding off, the wizard gets 27 fireballs as the sorcerer gets 32. A difference of 5 level 3 damage spells represents the pinnacle of sorcerer advantage. That's not the old system at all, it's kind of worse. And that's assuming damage spells are even a good idea at level 20 (particularly Fireball). This is why I brought up the Hit points thing. I honestly think by level 20 (well, last week I contended by 30), Hit points aren't the "fad" anymore. The saves are much more important then. Look at the spell list; it's sort of true. Damage is subsidized by DR spells, outlandish AC from magic item placement, and various other effects that level 20 sees as commonality. Saves get bonuses, sure but those max out at +5 more than usual, or maybe +8 if you stack the save bonus and the relative stat bonus. That's an unlikely combination anyway. In short, there is no real Full Plate +5 for saves, but the the spells you really want to save against are just monster deadly up there. I don't consider the damage code a real advantage. Sure it's a plus but it's only for damage and it's meager any way you slice it. Jack is clearly right (as Lina Inverse's thread suggests) to me about psions, and that discussion is more welcome elsewhere at the moment, just like a potential bard discussion would be. But it's up to you guys ultimately. How are Krelios' and Jack's ideas bad? I like the 5 bonus feats and Eschew materials at level 1 (more as per Jack's idea). I mean, if you stripped the 5 feats from the wizard, it would seem more balanced, right? Sorcerer trades knowledge for power, Wizard trades power for knowledge. It's pretty even. But the 5 feats really send the counterpart of the sorcerer ahead of the game. By default, I might incorporate these into my game if nothing better comes up. It seems fair.
Ulden Throatbane 03-10-04, 05:08 PM	Here's a partial solution (probably not a full solution) that is actually fully within the bounds of UA: -Sorcerers (and only sorcerers) use the vitalizing varient, with the ability to cast on an empty spell-point pool if they're willing to risk taking damage. Now the vitalizing varient is a double-edged sword. cons: -get fatigued and exhausted after casting a certain number of spells -spells that cause fatigue are particularly nasty against sorcs. pro: -Partial recovery of spell points. Resting for two hours brings your spell-point total to two-thirds its maximum. If you use the vitalizing varient, then the sorcerer ironically has improved staying power, as long as you can spare two hours to do a partial recovery. -spells that remove conditions of fatigue and exhaustion can partially restore spell points. Finally, a high level sorcerer with a good constitution score can really go the distance trying to cast on an empty tank (especially if backed by a cleric). Role-playing wise, this rule adds a lot of flavor to the sorcerer class because it now becoms the "Mr. Scott" version of spellcasting ("Scotty, I need an MDJ or the universe explodes!" "It's noh goud, capt'n! Th' reactor cahnt take any more abuuse!!")
The Cosmic Goose 03-10-04, 06:09 PM	My opinion. grant sorcerers the ability to select divine as well as arcane spells as appart of their personal lists. they already can select -any- arcane spells, granting them that ability with divine magic gives them back their relivance. it also helps with the flavor of the class. Sorcerers learn their magic through sheer talent and intuition (sp?) because of this lack of formal schooling, they wouldnt be locked into one way of thinking, as Clerics, Wizards and Druids are. the mental blocks that keep a wiazard from understanding divine magic arnt there for a sorcerer. nespa?
Xorial 03-10-04, 06:19 PM	Maybe let sorcerers use metamagic, but at a cost of 1 point less than everyone else. This is a small impact, but has the flavor of a sorcerer being in tune with magic. I plan on using the arcane domains for the sorcerer, allowing bonus spells known for Charisma, & bonus feats like the wizard, but metamagic & bloodline type feats (there many sources for bloodline feats). Any sorcerer specific feats too. There may not be many of those, but those that exist should be available. The key is that wizards now have the flexibility of sorcerers, more so in fact. The response should be to give the sorcerer some of the wizard's ability to know more spells. His list will still be limited, but he will be better able to use his spells to greater effect. Wizards = a bunch of spells. Sorcerers = felxible use of spells known.
cowdragon 03-10-04, 07:56 PM	I second the idea that sorcerers/bards/battle sorcerers/any other sponatious casters such as assassins should get bonus spells known for high charisma. This does NOT unbalance games. We've tried it...it works fine. Especially since we use both wizards AND sorcerers in our campaigns. Tested it, good idea. The Cowdragon :mage:
Thelon Fairblade 03-11-04, 01:30 PM	Similar idea to having wizards use spellpoints while sorcs use Vitalizing: Have sorcs use Recharge magic. Basically, though, just make sure the Sorc and the Wiz are using different rules for magic. That will keep the flavor of the classes distinct.
Xorial 03-12-04, 11:03 AM	Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade Basically, though, just make sure the Sorc and the Wiz are using different rules for magic. That will keep the flavor of the classes distinct. I dont really agree with that. Unlike Psionics, wizards & sorcerers are still using the same energy. If I was doing anything different, I would let sorcerers use spell points & have wizards still prepare spells as normal. I may even let them prepare one spell per slot & cast what they want, sorta like the prepare spell with spel points, but still using the slot system to cast. If everyone uses spellpoints, I would have everyone use the recharage system too. Sorcerers able to access thier highest level spells more rapidly than wizards & clerics. You would do away with the specific recharge times though. That wouldnt be needed since the spell points would balance out the number of uses. I started another thread concerning an idea I had along the spell point line here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=199854).
Wil_Hyral 03-12-04, 06:10 PM	I don't necessarily agree about the same energy. I've always thought of them as obeying the same laws, but driving different cars. Sorcerers seem to cast from within, while wizards seem to incant reality in some really creepy, almost sci-fi-esque ways. Well, that's how I've always thought of it. Of course, psions are much different from both, so no one's arguing about that. And really the energy is subject to interpretation, we can dismiss what some DMs feel about the energy versus others. 'Cause whether or not I agree, there's no right or wrong yet. I like the idea put forth about recharge magic, a lot. Recharge magic on its own troubles me because of all those damn specific spells that use specific times for re-cast but hopefully there's just a pattern so I don't have to worry about spells from splashbooks, etc.
Xorial 03-15-04, 03:55 PM	The recharge times for specific spells are only needed if you plan on allowing it without spellpoints. I would use the general recharge times if you use it with spell points. The specific times are a mechanic to balance out the near limitless casting of spells allowed using the standard recharge rules. The spell points would be the limiting factor, so the specific recharge times would not be necessary.
Plunderer_of_the_planes 03-18-04, 10:50 PM	My fix is: 1. sorcerors getting the arcane domain 2. Extra spell points and bonus to spells known on high CHA 3. no penalty for added spell effects (i.e. extra magic missles or extra damage)
jagggar 03-18-04, 11:09 PM	Someone tell me if this is already supposed to be a given "no" for the topic, but: Use spell points only for spontaneous casters and have everyone else prepare as normal.
Ulden Throatbane 03-19-04, 04:05 AM	Actually, this is what I intend to do for my campaign. I think its also been suggested here as well.
Woas 03-19-04, 11:51 AM	This is what I do Jaggar. Well, its what I started with. It worked out pretty good. The 'bookworm' feeling and single-shot, breach-loading rifle feel of the wizard stuck around. However I have edited it as of late and been trying it a different way. The new way involves wizards using Spell Points. However, instead of preparing a set amount of spells, then casting those on the fly, I have it so that the Spell Points are what the wizards use to prepare their spells. In a way, they 'pre-pay' for their spells for that day. So for example: A wizard with 20 SP (just pulling that out of the Random hat) wakes up in the morning and needs to prepare spells for the day. He prepares spells based off his Spell Points. So with 20 SP, he could prepare a couple magic missle, and invisablity, etc etc. After a wizard has prepared his/her spells, they have 0 SP left. This allows Wizards to prepare a few extra higher level spells, at the cost of more lower level spells. So pretty much the SP limit replaces the Spells Per Day limit...