Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lawrence 04-16-05, 11:51 PM	So far the main problem with a Sorcerer has been the lack of flesh on bone (figuratively speaking). It feels like a patch job of a wizard and an inferior warlock. So...Perhaps if we figure out a few perks to give them a flare of their own, they won't be so left out? :D I had a small thought that, when I thought on it, seemed like a feasible thing for the time being, until something more qualfying came up. Why not let the sorcerer have pick out one of the specialist wizard types from the Unearthed Arcana? No spell prohibition as a part of it, and in the case of 'prices' for most of the options, they wouldn't apply (expection being the familiar based bonuses). It's a minor consideration thus far, but I'm trying to think of something to give the Sorcerer to make then unique, something that's not a wizard, or a warlock, or even a bard or divine caster. wish me luck!
Eikcuf 04-17-05, 12:36 AM	That sounds like a good idea, but not quite enughf IMO wish me luck! Good luck! ;)
HailSpork 04-17-05, 12:56 AM	Sorcerers have the capability to be very useful offensive and utilitarian casters, like mages. They don't have much in common with warlock at all; far more in common with warmage. In fact, in an effort to remove the overwhelming similarities between wizards and sorcerers, I replaced sorcerers with warmages (but with the same game explanation as sorcerers). Have you looked into draconic feats? Perhaps gifting each sorcerer the Draconic Heritage feat (and maybe a few more draconic feats every... 5 levels or so...). In another game I play in (which started before C.Arc came out), we use entirely the Battle Sorcerer alternative.
jagggar 04-17-05, 01:37 AM	Check out the sorcerer in my sig. Beyond the obvious spellpoints option, I gave it a minor bloodline and whatever the feat-replacing option happened to be in the Wizard Specialists section (except for the transmuter I believe).
Lawrence 04-17-05, 10:52 AM	Have you looked into draconic feats? Perhaps gifting each sorcerer the Draconic Heritage feat (and maybe a few more draconic feats every... 5 levels or so...). I know about those, so the idea I do have may require tweaking in the sense that I make two versions of sorcerer: one that's obviously draconic origins and another, non-draconic based one. Check out the sorcerer in my sig. Beyond the obvious spellpoints option, I gave it a minor bloodline and whatever the feat-replacing option happened to be in the Wizard Specialists section (except for the transmuter I believe). Eh, I want to make my own version, but thanks for the offer. I'm hoping to make these require as few 'extra books' as possible (though that'd be impossible with draconic feats involved). So I'm trying to make a way to have the sorcerer unique. Since this is a mix of rules, I can't go overtly to working on the sorcerer here (off topic). But I think I can make a few ponderings and slide them this way. ;) 1 thought) Make the sorcerer, in essence, like a magical battery or inherently 'magic' (sorta like how a monk's self-perfection makes them an outsider). I've been tinkering with small options of inherent spell features any sorcerer can use, provided he has the spell slots to spend or otherwise. a: Take the various stat boosting spells (bear strength, etc) and make them spontaneous spells. It's a touch based spell until you hit the mass versions, and that gives the sorcerer a permanent buff option (and a way to increase CHA for own use). b: At 10th and 20th level, they get limited wish and wish respectively. The spells still take XP, and can only be used 1/day, however, unlike the regular wish or limited wish spell, these versions are less sadistic in use. You can't make magical items and whatnot with them, but the Sorcerer can word out his desire more than a regular wizard or normal use of the spell can. Still tinkering, but it's a start. the above thoughts were for the non-draconic sorcerer. I'll have to pull out CA and look the dragon feats over to see how I'd do the dragon one.
Shaken, not Stunned 04-17-05, 12:08 PM	Personally, I just like subbing in the battle sorcerer.
Thelon Fairblade 04-18-05, 10:24 AM	I use both Sorcerer and BattleSorcerer in my world. Sorcerers are the "hedge wizards" that discover their powers on their own (and gain Magical Aptitude at 2nd level as a bonus feat). BattleSorcerers are trained in one of the two Academies on the continent (and gain Eschew Materials at level 2 as a bonus feat). I also grant Sorcerers the option of one of the following: a) Minor Bloodline b) Bloodline feat (from dragon magazine) c) Extra Spell feat at every 4th level or d) Metamagic feat at every 4th level
TheDarkestOfAngels 04-22-05, 02:24 AM	*shameless self promotion* well, if you're having problems with the sorcerer, there's always the alternative (and its varients) that I created (in my sig.) Of course, if that doesn't strike your fancy, there's always the hundreds (literally) of other varient/alternative/whatever sorcerers listed on post #5. It's a veritable cornocopia of sorcerers in there.
Thelon Fairblade 04-22-05, 09:27 AM	Heck, I'll promote TDoA's Sorcerer.... that's pretty much what we're using in my current campaign, after all.
NineInchNall 04-26-05, 05:47 PM	Hmm, weeeellll, this is going to sound overpowered (since it's essentially 9 epic feats), but here's what my Dawnforge DM is doing for Sorcerers in his newest game. 1) Sorcerers must specialize in the manner of 3.0 Wizards, but instead of getting an extra spell/day they get an extra spell known, and instead of a +2 to learn a new spell they get a +1 caster level bonus on spells from their chosen school. 2) Sorcerers don't use components (except for XP components). Yowza. So no material (except when the material is part of the spell's effect), no somatic, and no verbal components. Yes, this is (very) powerful, but we're all about trying to get classes' mechanics to match their flavor, and this certainly differentiates the sorcerer's casting from that of the Wizard. One can learn and use any damn spell, making his wizard's tower a thing no one wants to go near, while the other controls magic through sheer force of will. Yeah, I know that point 2) makes it so a sorcerer can cast fine in armor or while polymorphed into a tree. We like that, though. :D
Polymorph 04-27-05, 05:13 PM	So sorcerers learn twice as many spells as normal, they gain the eshew materials feat at 1st level, and all their spells are stilled and silenced as with the 2 feats without increasing the spellslot they take up, which also enables sorcerers to wear any armor and cast their spells without spellfailure. Comparig this with the wizard, they both get 2 spells a level now, and while wizards gain higher level spells 1 level earlier, sorcerors add +1 to the casterlevel of their most important spells. The sorceror still casts spells on the fly, aplying metamagic feats as he desires, and has a lot more spell slots to use than a wizard does. Also the wizard has to prepare each of his spells in advance, which drastically lowers his combat ability in comparrison. ... Well... Play a tattering know-a-lot, that has no power whatsoever if he ever looses his precious book or bag of fingerbones. Every morning he sits arround talking to himself and when it comes to talking with real people, he doesnt perform too good. The fact that he likes to throw bat guano arround doesnt make him much more popular either... Or would you prefer a good looking charismatic guy/girl that doesnt need to creep arround in libraries to learn magic? In fact you are a godlike creature that can manipulate the weave in a much stronger way than any finger-wiggler ever could - and all of this just with the power of your mind! So you can keep posing and grinning in your platearmor hovering above the ground while your enemies are torn apart by your sheer endless alotment of magical power!
NineInchNall 04-27-05, 07:02 PM	I did say it was a powerful change, didn't I? :rolleyes: I thought I was pretty clear about that. Twice as many spells as normal? Try 10 more spells. That's actually less than 25% more spells known. Even ignoring that, we allow a feat that gives wizards 2 + Int mod spells per level, so those guys are still learning at a lot faster rate. We're actually considering replacing the standard wizard with a modified version of the Magister class from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved and giving sorcerers a d6 hd. The idea was to make it so that a sorcerer's spells function more like spell-like abilities (no components, etc.) to enhance the magical talent aspect of the class's flavor. The wizard still has the advantage, which very few people seem to appreciate, of being able to learn any Sor/Wiz spell. This sort of strategic vs. tactical advantage is highly played up in our games. The wizard is not intended to be able to adapt to each new situation. Wizards are the type who sit in their towers playing with new combinations of magical energies, preparing magical items, and setting up contingencies to avert any ill event that should arise. Wizards are a swiss army knife to deal with different eldritch situations. Further, the class is no more powerful than a druid with Natural Spell or a cleric with Divine Metamagic. Even more important, however, one has to wonder whether you base your class choices on power. You know, a lot of people play these games by choosing the archetype that they want to play, regardless of its power, or, even better, recognizing that one archetype is inhernetly more powerful than another still choosing the weaker. In the game I'm going to be playing my Conjuration specialist sorcerer, my character is the only caster, despite such changes. We almost didn't have any casters at all.
Polymorph 04-27-05, 09:10 PM	I know that some people like to play weaker classes and to some power is not important at all. i am one of those guys. But most people want to be at least equal in power with the others. I have seen many game where one character was so outrageously powerful, that it spoiled the fun for everyone else. I know how you want to make the sorceror cooler and make him more different from the wizard, but you should try to do so without destroying the balance of the ruleset. Granting multiple epic and other feats at level 1 is not optimal to do this imho. Also classabilities that increase the casterlevel above the classlevels are very easily abused and i dont see much sense in the sorcerers spells being stronger thn normal ones anyways. By all means you should make the Sorceror gain the abilities you want him to have as he gains levels and not instantly at level 1. As things are now, he is THE class to take and forget as soon as you can get acces to any prestige class, because his claslevels dont yield anything at all (beside familiar prograsion... duh) How about you let him progress very much like a ranger does? He chooses one "route" to take, and gains fitting abilities every few levels (like a ranger has to decide on ranged combat or dual wielding). here are some suggestions: "bloodline"-route: grants some benefits to the sorceror due to the ancient blood in his veins. lvl 1:5 points of energy resistance (only one kind), lvl 4: low light vision (or +30 ft low light vision if he already has this ability) lvl 7: improve one physical ability score by +2(note that CHA is NOT physical) lvl 11: energy resistance increases to 12, dragonlike trait (glowing eyes, scaly skin, snakelike tongue, hands and feet sprouting claws etc.) lvl 15: dark vision lvl 19:ability bonus increases to +4, +2 to another physical ability "lust for power"-route: the sorcerors strifes to master his innate powers at all cost. lvl 1: free metamagic feat or spellfocus / spellpenetration lvl 4: "path" specialisation (concentrates on one school of magic, must give up 2 other schools) The Sorceror can use a metamagic feat that increases the spellcircle by 1 on all of his spells from his chosen school without using up a higher level slot. Using this metamagic is still a fullround action.´ lvl 7: unstable metamagic The Sorcerer may use this ability 1 + Con bonus times per day. He may add any metamagic that normally increases a spells level by 3 or less to a spell he is about to cast without spending a higher level slot for it. This increases the casting time normally, during which the sorceror screams, laughs or acts in any other nonsubtle way, so his enemies are always aware of him when he uses this ability. Roll a d20 when the spell is cast. The DC of the check is twice the spell's modified level. (For example a maximised fireball would result in a total spell level of 6, resulting in a DC of 12) if the check fails, and the spell cast is a hostile one, the caster takes 2d4 points of permanent constitution damage. If it is a beneficial spell, waves of color explode in the Sorcerors hands, blinding him for 2d4 rounds. Note that, if the modified spell level is greater than 9, the spell automatically fails and drains 2d4 wisdom in addition to the normal effects. lvl 11: metamagic feat lvl 15: fast metamagic The sorceror can cast metamagic spells without increasing the casting time. This also makes quicken spell a possible option. lvl 19: greater "path" specialisation The sorceror can now use two metamagics that normally increase the spell level by 1 on all spells of his chosen school without speninding a higher level slot. Note that he can NOT use a metamagic feat that increases the spelllevel by 2, like empower spell, for free. "innate might"-route: The Sorceror's spell become supernatural abilities to him, due to his dragonic heritage. lvl 1: innate ability: The Sorceror may choose one of his spells known to become a supernatural ability he can use twice per day. He has to sacrifice two spellslots of the same circle as the desired spell in order to gain this ability. These slots do not recharge after resting or in any other way. He gains this abilty again at level 4 and every even numbered level thereafter, making it possible to learn another spell as a supernatural abilty and loosing appropiate spellslots every time. Such Supernatural abilities can not be counterspelled or reflected upon the user. They do not need a verbal component, but all require somatic components, even if the former spell did not require this. Using these abilities is a standard action and can not be disrupted by breaking the users concentration or the like. This is a class ability and it is not gained when the character gains a new level in any other class than sorceror. lvl 7: Once a day, the sorceror can use one of his innate abilities without expanding on of it's daily uses. he can use this ability twice per day when he reaches level 15.
NineInchNall 04-28-05, 12:07 AM	Interesting ideas. I kind of like the flavor of the "bloodline route", but it doesn't address one of the main problems with the sorcerer as is: wizards and sorcerers cast spells the same way, but one does so spontaneously. As I see it, someone who shapes magic through force of personality/will, someone who does so naturally and without study, is not really going to be using components of any sort (save perhaps XP). The second option does nothing to help the mechanics match the flavor, except for the Unstable Metamagic thing, which I quite like, I must admit. As far as the third is concerned ... Have you ever heard of the Dweomercheater of Mystra? Same problem here, but in a base class. Now, if you were worried about dipping, then you could delay things so that they were spread out along class levels, and something like the following would work. 1 Ignore Material Components, Automatic Still Spell (0-3), Automatic Silent Spell (0-3) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Automatic Still Spell (4-6), Automatic Silent Spell (4-6) 9 10 11 12 13 14 Automatic Still Spell (7-9), Automatic Silent Spell (7-9) 15 16 17 18 19 20 Heck, you could even rule that the sorcerer can't feel the magic sufficiently in armor, and hence has the same ASF as a wizard. 'Course, this is all predicated on a focus on the "natural spellcaster" mold. If one were to go with giving a sorcerer the draconic tree of feats as he leveled, then that would also be a flavor fix, but if that's the kind of flavor fix that one is going for, then why have the sorcerer differ from the wizard in any other way than that? :confused:
Cymraegmorgan 04-28-05, 12:17 AM	So far the main problem with a Sorcerer has been the lack of flesh on bone (figuratively speaking). It feels like a patch job of a wizard and an inferior warlock. So...Perhaps if we figure out a few perks to give them a flare of their own, they won't be so left out? :D I had a small thought that, when I thought on it, seemed like a feasible thing for the time being, until something more qualfying came up. Why not let the sorcerer have pick out one of the specialist wizard types from the Unearthed Arcana? No spell prohibition as a part of it, and in the case of 'prices' for most of the options, they wouldn't apply (expection being the familiar based bonuses). It's a minor consideration thus far, but I'm trying to think of something to give the Sorcerer to make then unique, something that's not a wizard, or a warlock, or even a bard or divine caster. wish me luck! One simple little perk I give Sorcerers is an eighth level Bonus Feat, Leadership. That and a modified spell point system give the Sorcerer a bit of a boost without overdoing it.
Lawrence 06-29-05, 10:08 PM	Gah! I somehow totally screwed this up, so nevermind what use to be here. doh..... <ignore>
Nani? 07-01-05, 04:37 AM	Simple\Stupid using UA, depending on "how far" you wish to go with it-- Solution 1-- Use the "Generic" spellcaster, UA P 77 with the following restrictions. Ideal character conepts: Skill based sorcerer, Arcane mutant freak, Bloodline 1) Character must be a Charisma based arcane spell caster. You may designate for example Druid spells as "arcane" for this purpose but henceforth you would only be able to use the Druid list. 2) All "special" bonus feats (UA pg 76) must be designated at character creation. They may be designated as "standard" feats which may be used on any metamagic feat. 3) Skills chosen as class skills must logically flow from the "background" of the character, i.e. who were they "before" they became a spellcaster. 4) Overall creation must be approved by the GM. Solution 2-- Domain Sorcerer (Based off Domain wizard, UA pg 57)-- Character concept: Some bloodlines, Arcane Mutant Freaks, 1)Sorcerer gets 1 domain. The spell on the domain list is known in addition to other spells. The caster may cast one more spell of the appropriate level, provided it is related to the domain (i.e. detect poison instead of detect magic for divination). 2) One skill may be "traded out", replaced from the standard Sorcerer list for one skill related to the chosen domain. Example might include Knowledge: Nature for Transformation or Necromancy or Performance for Illusion, Diplomacy for Enchantment. Solution 3: Worldly Sorcerer 1) No additional spell ablities. 2) d6 hd 3) Skills: 1st level 4*4+ Int modifier, 4+Int per level May add 1 skill to Sorcerer list: May "trade out" 1 skill with one other skill from sorcerer list at character creation. May subsequently trade out additional skills on 1 new skill for 2 lost at character creation. May designate one and only one performance, knowledge, craft, or proffesion skill as a "casting skill" on character creation. Use of that skill may replace 1 component with a skill check DC 10 + spell level at any time. May not be used to replace expensive material components. How that for ideas. This off the cuff so I haven't tested any of these. It meant primarilly to spark you to get creative. All the Best, Nani?